above baseline

skull

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dont realy know if theres an answer for this but how much above baseline do you need to raise T to build muscle?I know theres a lot of other factors to consider but lets say diets in order and what ever method you use that the extra T is getting to your AR and your training is also in order:good:
 

mercedesdd

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There is no exact number on that .. But from what I understand top bodybuilders drool over a 2000 -2500 ng/dl level of total test....
 
Skye

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We may want to take these blood test numbers with a grain of salt as they measure the FREE testosterone (if I understand correctly). A guy laid up with a broken leg might gain a much higher free level then some one hitting the gym EOD. I am going to look into this one as I am not sure but I do know that numbers themselves can fluctuate greatly just by when you take your shot and where. (There is always an initial spike from an injection; in an active muscle this can be greater) Other drugs can also affect it, proviron for instance.
 
jomi822

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total testosterone is indicative of proper testicular function, health, etc. the number you really want to look at is free testosterone, or testosterone that is not bound by sex hormone binding globulin, which renders it inactive.

anything over 100 is considered pretty good in a male not on steroids. id love to know what free test gets to in guys on 2 or 3 grams of test plus EQ/DECA/TREN. perhaps 2000-2500 is the free test count the pros are looking for.
 
B5150

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Well total test may not be indicative of testicular function. I am on HRT and have been for a couple months. My LH has plumeted from a higher out of range number to the very low end of the range. The fact that I have exogenous testosterone in my system and low end LH suggest to me that tetsicular function is inhibited. In spite of that my present total test is ~650. So my testicle are not functioning to generate that level of test butit is still there. But yes in the case of natural testosterone production it is surely a sign of proper testicular function.

Regarding the free test and % free test in relation to total test. At ~650 I am just at the low end for free test and % free test. So it seems that mid ranged total test is accompanied by low end range free test and % free test. My only thought is that this may not be how the body works on its own. Having exogenous testosterone raising my total test may not exponentially raise my free and % free. It is my hope though. So in theory if I double my total test to the very high end of the range and my free and % free doubles it would have the free and % free sitting at the mid to upper mid range.

Just thinking this outloud with you guys. I will see, as I am in the procss of trying to achieve high end free and % free.
 

mercedesdd

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We may want to take these blood test numbers with a grain of salt as they measure the FREE testosterone (if I understand correctly). A guy laid up with a broken leg might gain a much higher free level then some one hitting the gym EOD. I am going to look into this one as I am not sure but I do know that numbers themselves can fluctuate greatly just by when you take your shot and where. (There is always an initial spike from an injection; in an active muscle this can be greater) Other drugs can also affect it, proviron for instance.
Good points!! Also what about receptor upreg at start of a cycle.....
 

mercedesdd

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Well total test may not be indicative of testicular function. I am on HRT and have been for a couple months. My LH has plumeted from a higher out of range number to the very low end of the range. The fact that I have exogenous testosterone in my system and low end LH suggest to me that tetsicular function is inhibited. In spite of that my present total test is ~650. So my testicle are not functioning to generate that level of test butit is still there. But yes in the case of natural testosterone production it is surely a sign of proper testicular function.

Regarding the free test and % free test in relation to total test. At ~650 I am just at the low end for free test and % free test. So it seems that mid ranged total test is accompanied by low end range free test and % free test. My only thought is that this may not be how the body works on its own. Having exogenous testosterone raising my total test may not exponentially raise my free and % free. It is my hope though. So in theory if I double my total test to the very high end of the range and my free and % free doubles it would have the free and % free sitting at the mid to upper mid range.

Just thinking this outloud with you guys. I will see, as I am in the procss of trying to achieve high end free and % free.
What dose of test are you taking for HRT??
 
B5150

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I am presently at 7.5g/d of Androgel. My ~650 total test was accomplished on 5g/d of Androgel. So we are looking at 35mg/week to achieve ~650 total test.
 

mercedesdd

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I am presently at 7.5g/d of Androgel. My ~650 total test was accomplished on 5g/d of Androgel. So we are looking at 35mg/week to achieve ~650 total test.
I was wondering how is your estrogen level with the androgel?? I hear alot of people say that the androgel has a high rate of conversion into estrogen.. Are you having any bad estrogen sides with it like bloating or moonface??? Are you using a SERM or AI with your HRT?? Just wanted to get some feedback on this topic .. Thanks!!!
 
B5150

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Well according to all my research on the use of AndroGel, it is not estrogen, but rather DHT that needs to be a concern. I had my first 4-5 weeks bloodwork done prior to this dose increase and my estradiol was normal. My pre AndroGel bloodwork had a baseline for estrogen and not estradiol (Dr. is on a learning curve). So even though it is normal it could have increased. I have been suspicous of an increase in estradiol. I do not have a moon face but have put on water/bloat/fat around my lower back/ass/hip/love handles area that is very estrogen like. Being older, prone to insulin resistence I feel like estradiol could be a further contributing factor. My carbohydrate level is 75-100g/day max and all low glycemic consisting of vegetable, oats, and fiber one cereal. I have recently reintroduced taurine and cee as well as started 20g/d of BCAA's. I have never really had water bloat from CEE or taurine in the past.

I have considered experimenting with a SERM but believe that an AI is more appropriate in this case, which I do not possess at this time. I do not want to add any unprescribed medications at this time as I continue to have doctor supervised assessment and bloodwork requisitions that only cost a 30 co-pay. Bloodwork for testosterone,total, free, % free, LH and estradiol is in the $400-500 range without insurance. In the next 3-4 weeks I should find what net weekly dose of testosterone I need to achieves peak levels. I will the transition to injection. Following that I have a plan ;)

Recent and current bloodwork can be found here: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/hormone-replacement-therapy/46692-somebody-get-me-doctor-6.html#post590723
 
Skye

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with that tight of a diet your not going to see any bloat bro, and I am being perfectly serous here, at your age people do tend to start getting fat in places they would rather not. I am wondering becuase at 35mg a week your at the low end of HRT (I was under the impression that levels were more like 50 to 100mg a week or so) Then again I really haven't looked into HRT much. I will be interested in how you do here though, this is interesting
 
B5150

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Oh I know that at my age I am susceptable to those sort of things. I am very in tune with my body and it does seem rather suspect because it has further accumulated just since starting AndroGel. But then again a few other things could be contributing to the symptom. One way to find out if it is estradiol is wait for my next blood work which I will be taking mid week next.

Coorect on dose. My Dr is not an endo but a very open minded physician. We are progressing up to that dose. The data (my bloodwork) does support the idea that 50-100mg/week is likely. I squarely in the middle of the range for total and low end for free and %free at 35mg week active after absorption. My bloodwork next week will be at 43.75mg week (6.25g/d AndroGel) so we will see where that leaves me.
 

mercedesdd

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Well according to all my research on the use of AndroGel, it is not estrogen, but rather DHT that needs to be a concern. I had my first 4-5 weeks bloodwork done prior to this dose increase and my estradiol was normal. My pre AndroGel bloodwork had a baseline for estrogen and not estradiol (Dr. is on a learning curve). So even though it is normal it could have increased. I have been suspicous of an increase in estradiol. I do not have a moon face but have put on water/bloat/fat around my lower back/ass/hip/love handles area that is very estrogen like. Being older, prone to insulin resistence I feel like estradiol could be a further contributing factor. My carbohydrate level is 75-100g/day max and all low glycemic consisting of vegetable, oats, and fiber one cereal. I have recently reintroduced taurine and cee as well as started 20g/d of BCAA's. I have never really had water bloat from CEE or taurine in the past.

I have considered experimenting with a SERM but believe that an AI is more appropriate in this case, which I do not possess at this time. I do not want to add any unprescribed medications at this time as I continue to have doctor supervised assessment and bloodwork requisitions that only cost a 30 co-pay. Bloodwork for testosterone,total, free, % free, LH and estradiol is in the $400-500 range without insurance. In the next 3-4 weeks I should find what net weekly dose of testosterone I need to achieves peak levels. I will the transition to injection. Following that I have a plan ;)

Recent and current bloodwork can be found here: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/hormone-replacement-therapy/46692-somebody-get-me-doctor-6.html#post590723
Yea I am intrested in your progress also.. Please keep us posted on how everything goes......
 
skull

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Well according to all my research on the use of AndroGel, it is not estrogen, but rather DHT that needs to be a concern. I had my first 4-5 weeks bloodwork done prior to this dose increase and my estradiol was normal. My pre AndroGel bloodwork had a baseline for estrogen and not estradiol (Dr. is on a learning curve). So even though it is normal it could have increased. I have been suspicous of an increase in estradiol. I do not have a moon face but have put on water/bloat/fat around my lower back/ass/hip/love handles area that is very estrogen like. Being older, prone to insulin resistence I feel like estradiol could be a further contributing factor. My carbohydrate level is 75-100g/day max and all low glycemic consisting of vegetable, oats, and fiber one cereal. I have recently reintroduced taurine and cee as well as started 20g/d of BCAA's. I have never really had water bloat from CEE or taurine in the past.

I have considered experimenting with a SERM but believe that an AI is more appropriate in this case, which I do not possess at this time. I do not want to add any unprescribed medications at this time as I continue to have doctor supervised assessment and bloodwork requisitions that only cost a 30 co-pay. Bloodwork for testosterone,total, free, % free, LH and estradiol is in the $400-500 range without insurance. In the next 3-4 weeks I should find what net weekly dose of testosterone I need to achieves peak levels. I will the transition to injection. Following that I have a plan ;)

Recent and current bloodwork can be found here: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/hormone-replacement-therapy/46692-somebody-get-me-doctor-6.html#post590723
---after reading your post I wonder how much worse off you would be dealing with this on your own[just dont trust docs]maybe you want to go this route for leagal issues?I mean you could do your own BW-labs/as far as DHT goes protect your prostate and if baldness isnt an issue your good/as far as E goes theres many OTC options.Are you just trying to get back to what docs consider normal? because I dont think they would justify anything beyond that?
 
B5150

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---after reading your post I wonder how much worse off you would be dealing with this on your own[just dont trust docs]maybe you want to go this route for leagal issues?I mean you could do your own BW-labs/as far as DHT goes protect your prostate and if baldness isnt an issue your good/as far as E goes theres many OTC options.Are you just trying to get back to what docs consider normal? because I dont think they would justify anything beyond that?
We are on the very same page. Nice to see someone paying attention ;)
 

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