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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Ubiquitous
    ok, I appreciate debates, by why are you yelling?

    You should also know that your use of HCG during post cycle therapy is suppressive in itself... you are mimicking LH, so in a sense taking a step out of the HPTA recovery... do you agree?
    LOL--

    HCG is used CLINICALLY to treat HYPGONADISM--and SECONDARY hypogonadism.

    The problem with HCG is OVER-USE. This could potentially lead to a desensitization of your leydig cells to Lh/FSH signal.

    I, however, CYCLE year-round.

    [R]


  2. I tried to keep this short butÖ.

    Test prop is a good ester but most effective is not the term I would use. Requires more injections is not a benefit for most people, the trauma of injects add up. Scar tissue is a real concern. There really isnít such a thing as a stable blood level, what you mean here is that there is a very even release from the depot. Free test in the blood is only an indirect indicator of what is going on. If it was that important you could inject a long ester ED or EOD and get extremely even release of the hormones. The fact that youíre using prop for this type of dosing is irrelevant. Test base (suspension), acetate, benzoate, formate , and phenol propionate would all do the same. And again it comes at a cost. So does using any drug for that matter, they all have side affects. There is nothing for free. And HPTA recovery is only quicker because its out of your system quicker, running test prop or transdermal test for the last two weeks of your cycle will work just as well. Bulking and cutting are functions of your diet, not the drug you use. While some are better then others almost all will work for both.

    AIs should not be run unless really needed. They hurt more then they help. Lipid profiles, ED problems and other side affects make these somewhat questionable for a lot of cycles let alone when youíre off. Off is off or should be.

    All steroids shut you down, even if it does not affect all parts of the HPTA. It only has to shut down one part. AND I CANíT BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE ACTUALLY PERPOSING THAT A 17A METHYLATED STEROID CAN BE RAN LONGER THEN TEST. I am sorry that is just stupid.

    Youíre partaully right on the EQ, it does take a while to kick in even when frontloading. However front loading DOES speed the things up by at least half. And EQ does shut you down and it has its own set of sides even if they are mild.

    This no side affects business is getting old, primo does have sides, yes its nice but its mild and very expensive for what it does.

    The first two reasons for spot injections (winny) working are things you donít want; they cause damage and scar tissue.

    Sure you can stack two methylate steroids together. I mean, what has your liver done for you lately? Itís all over rated. But wouldnít moderation be just using one oral steroid and not pushing it?


    You need estrogen. And the whole point of a SERM is that they allow estrogen to form. And no they do not affect the effectiveness of the AIs, ( I also thought that until someone showed me better info on that, sorry bro I canít think of your name) And there are dangerous? But running two orals steroids together is not?
    •   
       


  3. Quote Originally Posted by Skye
    I tried to keep this short butÖ.

    Test prop is a good ester but most effective is not the term I would use. Requires more injections is not a benefit for most people, the trauma of injects add up. Scar tissue is a real concern. There really isnít such a thing as a stable blood level, what you mean here is that there is a very even release from the depot. Free test in the blood is only an indirect indicator of what is going on. If it was that important you could inject a long ester ED or EOD and get extremely even release of the hormones. The fact that youíre using prop for this type of dosing is irrelevant. Test base (suspension), acetate, benzoate, formate , and phenol propionate would all do the same. And again it comes at a cost. So does using any drug for that matter, they all have side affects. There is nothing for free. And HPTA recovery is only quicker because its out of your system quicker, running test prop or transdermal test for the last two weeks of your cycle will work just as well. Bulking and cutting are functions of your diet, not the drug you use. While some are better then others almost all will work for both.

    AIs should not be run unless really needed. They hurt more then they help. Lipid profiles, ED problems and other side affects make these somewhat questionable for a lot of cycles let alone when youíre off. Off is off or should be.

    All steroids shut you down, even if it does not affect all parts of the HPTA. It only has to shut down one part. AND I CANíT BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE ACTUALLY PERPOSING THAT A 17A METHYLATED STEROID CAN BE RAN LONGER THEN TEST. I am sorry that is just stupid.

    Youíre partaully right on the EQ, it does take a while to kick in even when frontloading. However front loading DOES speed the things up by at least half. And EQ does shut you down and it has its own set of sides even if they are mild.

    This no side affects business is getting old, primo does have sides, yes its nice but its mild and very expensive for what it does.

    The first two reasons for spot injections (winny) working are things you donít want; they cause damage and scar tissue.

    Sure you can stack two methylate steroids together. I mean, what has your liver done for you lately? Itís all over rated. But wouldnít moderation be just using one oral steroid and not pushing it?


    You need estrogen. And the whole point of a SERM is that they allow estrogen to form. And no they do not affect the effectiveness of the AIs, ( I also thought that until someone showed me better info on that, sorry bro I canít think of your name) And there are dangerous? But running two orals steroids together is not?

    I was waaaaaay too lazy to respond to this fella, but nice post. It might have been me, I posted a couple studies showing Novladex and Letro had no adverse effects on the pharmacokinetics of the other.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Skye
    I tried to keep this short butÖ.

    Test prop is a good ester but most effective is not the term I would use. Requires more injections is not a benefit for most people, the trauma of injects add up. Scar tissue is a real concern. There really isnít such a thing as a stable blood level, what you mean here is that there is a very even release from the depot. Free test in the blood is only an indirect indicator of what is going on. If it was that important you could inject a long ester ED or EOD and get extremely even release of the hormones. The fact that youíre using prop for this type of dosing is irrelevant. Test base (suspension), acetate, benzoate, formate , and phenol propionate would all do the same. And again it comes at a cost. So does using any drug for that matter, they all have side affects. There is nothing for free. And HPTA recovery is only quicker because its out of your system quicker, running test prop or transdermal test for the last two weeks of your cycle will work just as well. Bulking and cutting are functions of your diet, not the drug you use. While some are better then others almost all will work for both.

    AIs should not be run unless really needed. They hurt more then they help. Lipid profiles, ED problems and other side affects make these somewhat questionable for a lot of cycles let alone when youíre off. Off is off or should be.

    All steroids shut you down, even if it does not affect all parts of the HPTA. It only has to shut down one part. AND I CANíT BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE ACTUALLY PERPOSING THAT A 17A METHYLATED STEROID CAN BE RAN LONGER THEN TEST. I am sorry that is just stupid.

    Youíre partaully right on the EQ, it does take a while to kick in even when frontloading. However front loading DOES speed the things up by at least half. And EQ does shut you down and it has its own set of sides even if they are mild.

    This no side affects business is getting old, primo does have sides, yes its nice but its mild and very expensive for what it does.

    The first two reasons for spot injections (winny) working are things you donít want; they cause damage and scar tissue.

    Sure you can stack two methylate steroids together. I mean, what has your liver done for you lately? Itís all over rated. But wouldnít moderation be just using one oral steroid and not pushing it?


    You need estrogen. And the whole point of a SERM is that they allow estrogen to form. And no they do not affect the effectiveness of the AIs, ( I also thought that until someone showed me better info on that, sorry bro I canít think of your name) And there are dangerous? But running two orals steroids together is not?
    FIRST of all....

    It is impossible to achieve completely stable blood levels with long esters like Enanthate or cypionate. This is simple CHEMISTRY and the nature of esters. TONS of personal and ancedotal evidence ALL indicate that side-effects occur MUCH LESS FREQUENLTY when the PROPIONATE ester is administered.

    Propionate will also allow for a quicker HPTA recovery because, as you mentioned, the ester clears the system faster. HOWEVER, this is not the ONLY reason....

    REMEMBER--one can avoid total HPTA shutdown with propionate ester, by limiting cycle length to 2-6 weeks.* This CAN NOT be done with TEST SUSPENSION, becasue such a RAPID RELEASE triggers an IMMEDIATE negative feedback response, and PITUITARY INHIBITION occurs within a days. This makes PROP unique.

    AND YES--PROP has virtually NO SIDE-EFFECTS.(relative to other test esters)

    As for AROMATASE INHIBITORS--Most of thm are indeed, quite detrimental to blood lipid profiles. AROMASIN however, has been shown to even exhibit a POSITIVE effect on blood lipids*. using my PROTOCOLS is FINE.

    NEXT--**NOT ALL STEROIDS CAUSE COMPLETE SHUTDOWN**!! This is a HUGE misconception! *The HPTA is NOT A SINGLE ENTITY!**
    "The hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis (also HPTA) is a way of referring to the combined effects of the hypothalamus, pituitary gland, and gonads as if these individual endocrine glands were a single entity. Because these glands often behave in cooperation, physiologists and endocrinologists find it convenient and descriptive to speak of them as a single system.


    You ADMIT that I am correct about EQ.

    you admit that PRIMO is great.

    You are WRONG about ESTROGEN being NEEDED! No male needs estrogen buddy. The REQUIRED amount of estrogen for healthy male function(glucose uptake, nutreint metabolism, bone/joint lubrication, cholesterol) is VERY MINIMAL. ALL BODYBUILDERS who are SERIOUS about maintaining MUSCLE will use an AI year round in the protocol I described above.

    AND YES--Steroid HEPATOXICITY is WAAAAY OVERSTATED--FACT. Just look at SUPERDROL or PP. I have had many clients of mine run 17-aa for extended periods of time. SO LONG AS YOU MONITOR YOUR HEALTH and receieve REGULAR BLOOD TESTS, you are fine.

    [R]
  5. Response


    Clomid and Nolvadex should not be used by bodybuilders.
    Plain and simple:

    * They are NOT NECESSARY
    * Aromatase Inhibitors STOP estrogen production--SERM's do NOT.
    * They DECREASE the effectiveness of AROMATASE INHIBITORS when administered together!
    * They are Dangerous. (long-term)
    * They do NOTHING to reduce estrogen.
    * They cause a direct REBOUND effect upon cessation.
    * Not worth it for it's effect on LH--testosterone production.
    * Disturbs VISION PERMANENTLY!

    Show me evidence that a SERM screws with an AI when used in PCT please?

    Actually, by inhibiting the effects of estrogen in certain tissues (breast for instance with Nolva), they are combating the effects of estrogen.

    Show me studies that show a redbound effect?

    They have been clinically proven to increase natural testosterone production and testicular function.

    Clomid is the only SERM that has shown to disturb vision, and that is after long term use (over 4 weeks).
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  6. Exclamation


    Rationale for the Use of Aromasin with Tamoxifen During Post Cycle Therapy

    (By Anthony Roberts)


    Discussion of pharmaceutical agents below is presented for information only. Nothing here is meant to take the place of advice from a licensed health care practitioner. Consult a physician before taking any medication.

    Aromasin (Exemestane) is one of those weird compounds that nobody really knows what to do with. What we generally hear about it makes it very uninterestingÖItís a third generation Aromatase Inhibitor (AI) just like Arimidex (Anastrozole) and Femera (Letrozole). Both of those two drugs are very efficient at stopping the conversion of androgens into estrogen, and since we have them, why bother with Aromasin? Itís a little harder to get than the other two commonly used aromatase inhibitors, because itís not in high demand, and thereís never been a readily apparent advantage to using it. And I meanÖlets face it: Itís awkward-sounding. Aromasin doesnít have much of a ring to it, and exemestane is even worse. Arimidex has a bunch of cool abbreviations ("A-dex" or just Ďdex) and even Letrozole is just "Letro" to most people. Whereís the cool nickname for

    Aromasin/exemestane? A-Sin? E-Stane? It just doesnít work. Itís the black sheep of AIs. And why do we even need it when we have Letrozole, which is by far the most efficient AI for stopping aromatization (the process by which your body converts testosterone into estrogen)? Letro can reduce estrogen levels by 98% or greater; clinically a dose as low as 100mcgs has been shown to provide maximum aromatase inhibition (2)!

    So why would we need any other AIs? Well, first of all, estrogen is necessary for healthy joints (3) as well as a healthy immune system (4). So getting rid of 98% of the estrogen in your body for an extended period of time may not be the best of ideas. This may be useful on an extreme cutting cycle, leading up to a bodybuilding contest, or if you are particularly prone to gyno, but certainly canít be used safely for extended periods of time without compromising your joints and immune system.

    That leaves us with Arimidex, which isnít as potent as Letrozole, but at .5mgs/day will still get rid of around half (50%) of the estrogen in your body. Problem solved, right? Use Arimidex on your typical cycles, and if you are very prone to gyno or are getting ready for a contest, use Letro.

    But what about Post Cycle Therapy (PCT)?

    I think at this point most people are sold on the use of Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) instead of Clomid for post cycle therapy (PCT), since both compete estrogen at the receptor site, both increase serum test levels, and both drugs may also alter blood lipid profiles favorably [B](6). But since 20mgs of Tamoxifen is equal to 150mgs of clomid for purposes of testosterone elevation, FSH and LH, but Tamoxifen doesnít decrease the LH response to LHRH (6) I think most people agree to Nolvadexís superiority for PCT.[/B]

    Aromasin with Nolvadex

    Iíve always been in favor of using Nolvadex during PCT, along with an AI, because reducing estrogen levels has been positively correlated with an increase in testosterone (7) so in my mind, itís be beneficial to increase testosterone by as many mechanisms as possible while trying to recover your endogenous testosterone levels after a cycle. SO which AI do we use? Letro or A-dex? Well, why donít we just keep using whichever one we used during the cycle, and add in some Nolvadex? Unfortunately, Nolvadex will significantly reduce the blood plasma levels of both Letrozole as well as Arimidex (8). So if we choose to use one of them with our Nolvadex on PCT, weíre throwing away a bit of money as the Nolvadex will be reducing their effectiveness.

    This, of course, is where Aromasin comes in, at 20-25mgs/day.

    Aromasin, at that dose, will raise your testosterone levels by about 60%, and also help out your free to bound testosterone ratio by lowering levels of Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), by about 20% (12)ÖSHBG is that nasty enzyme that binds to testosterone and renders it useless for building muscle. But what about using it along with Nolvadex for PCT?

    Difference Between Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitors

    To understand why Aromasin may be useful in conjunction with Nolvadex while both Letro and A-dex suffer reduced effectiveness, weíll need to first understand the differences between a Type-I and Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor. Type I inhibitors (like Aromasin) are actually steroidal compounds, while type II inhibitors (like Letro and A-dex) are non-steroidal drugs. Hence, androgenic side effects are very possible with Type-I AIs, and they should probably be avoided by women. Of course, there are some similarities between the two types of AIsÖboth type I & type II AIs mimic normal substrates (essentially androgens), allowing them to compete with the substrate for access to the binding site on the aromatase enzyme. After this binding, the next step is where things differ greatly for the two different types of AIís. In the case of a type-I AI, the noncompetitive inhibitor will bind, and the enzyme initiates a sequence of hydroxylation; this hydroxylation produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. Now, enzyme activity is permanently blocked; even if all unattached inhibitor is removed. Aromatase enzyme activity can only be restored by new enzyme synthesis. Now, on the other hand, competitive inhibitors, called type II AIís, reversibly bind to the active enzyme site, and one of two things can happen: 1.) either no enzyme activity is triggered or 2.) the enzyme is somehow triggered without effect. The type II inhibitor can now actually disassociate from the binding site, eventually allowing renewed competition between the inhibitor and the substrate for binding to the site. This means that the effectiveness of competitive aromatase inhibitors depends on the relative concentrations and affinities of both the inhibitor and the substrate, while this is not so for noncompetitive inhibitors. Aromasin is a type-I inhibitor, meaning that once it has done its job, and deactivated the aromatase enzyme, we donít need it anymore. Letrozole and Arimidex actually need to remain present to continue their effects. This is possibly why Nolvadex does not alter the pharmacokinetics of Aromasin (11).

    Conclusion

    Before we close the book on Aromasin, itís worth noting that you can (and should) still use one of the non-steroidal AIs during your cycle to reduce estrogen, if necessary. When you are ready for PCT, you can then switch over to Aromasin and still experience the full effects of an AI, since there is no cross-over tolerance experienced between steroidal and non-steroidal AIs (9). Since Aromasin is about 65% efficient at suppressing estrogen (10), itís certainly a very powerful agent, especially considering you wonít experience reduced effectiveness because of your concurrent use of Nolvadex or from any sort of tolerance developed by using other AIs on your cycle(9). There is also a decent amount of preclinical data suggesting that Aromasin has a beneficial effect on bone mineral metabolism that is not seen with non-steroidal agents, and it may also have beneficial effects on lipid metabolism that are not found in the non-steroidal Letro and A-dex (9).

    Finally, as weíre going to be using Nolvadex for PCT anyway, and we ought to be using an AI with it for maximum recoveryÖI think Aromasin- considering itís compatibility with Nolvadex and beneficial effects on bone mineral content and lipid profile, has finally stopped being the black sheep of AIs and found a home in our cycles.

    Leave feedback and rate this article.

    References:

    Clin Cancer Res. 2005 Apr 15;11(8):2809-21.
    2. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1995 Sep;80(9):2658-60.
    [Clinical aspects of estrogen and bone metabolism] Clin Calcium. 2002 Sep;12(9):1246-51. Japanese.
    Science, Vol 283, Issue 5406, 1277-1278 , 26 February 1999
    J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7, "Estrogen Suppression in Males"
    Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7
    J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Mar;89(3):1174-80
    .J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2001 Dec;79(1-5):85-91.
    The Oncologist, Vol. 9, No. 2, 126Ė136, April 2004
    Zilembo N., Noberasco C., Bajetta E., Martinetti A., Mariani L., Orefici S. Endocrinological and clinical evaluation of exemestane, a new steroidal aromatase inhibitor. Br. J. Cancer, 72: 1007-1012, 1995
    Clinical Cancer Research Vol. 10, 1943-1948, March 2004
    The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 88, No. 12 5951-5956
    Copyright © 2003 by The Endocrine Society

  7. MORE EVIDENCE.
    Nolvadex and Clomid are NOT neccessitated--even if they CAN increase endogenous testosterone production.

    They are inferior to HCG/AI's at that too.


    [R]

  8. Should Nolvadex be Avoided at All Cost?
    by Dharkam

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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    Publication Date: January 30, 2006
    Nolvadex is the trade name of a drug containing a molecule called Tamoxifen. Its primary use by male bodybuilders is to prevent gynecomastia (the growth of the breast tissue). It was introduced by steroid guru Dan Duchaine 25 years ago. After a quarter of century, it is time for an update about its use. What I am going to demonstrate is it is high time to eliminate Nolvadex from the bodybuilder's drug stacks.

    A Little Bit of History

    Back in the late 70's, more and more bodybuilders developed strange lumps around their mammary glands. At first, no one really took notice but more and more competitors grew a gynecomastia. In 1981, the M Olympia had a pretty serious gyno. This was shortly after the introduction of this new drug by Dan Duchaine. At the time, it was a pretty good idea as no one else could came up with a solution in order to prevent this growing problem. Nolvadex was popularised by Dan's first Underground Steroid Handbook. Dan even states that "this drug has a lot of potential but hasn't been used enough yet to find it". After more than 25 years of intensive usage, it is my opinion that it is time to forget about Nolvadex. Why? First, because newer and more effective drugs have been developed. Second, because it seems obvious that Nolvadex impairs muscle growth.

    Nolvadex and Muscle Growth

    After so many years of usage, it seems pretty clear that if Tamoxifen helps prevent the growth of the nipples, it also weakens the anabolic properties of steroids in a majority of bodybuilders. We are frequently said that this weakening effect is due to the anti-estrogenic action of Nolvadex. According to the fantasy, muscles require both testosterone and estrogens to grow at an optimal rate.

    This belief is derived from the results of studies showing that without estrogens, testosterone alone possesses minimal anabolic properties. By increasing the density of androgen receptors, estrogens render the muscles much more sensitive to testosterone (1). This has been demonstrated in a very specific muscle called the levator ani. But this muscle does not reflect what happens in the muscles bodybuilders are interested in (2). Estrogens have even been shown to reduce muscle fiber size (3-4). I think this effect of estrogens is closer to what we experience on bodybuilders.

    Another popular explanation of the weakening action of Nolvadex is provided by studies which have shown that it reduced the plasma level of IGF-1. I do not think this is a primary explanation.

    What Nolvadex Truly Is

    Most lifters assume Nolvadex is a pure estrogen antagonist (which would mean it prevents estrogens from acting on their receptors). As far as bodybuilding is concerned, this assumption is very wrong as Nolvadex is both an estrogen receptor agonist and an antagonist. It all depends upon the tissues. Along with the nipples, on which Nolvadex acts mainly as an antagonist, we are also interested by its behaviour on skeletal muscles, on the liver and on the fat cells.

    Nolvadex has been shown to behave as estrogens in skeletal muscles (5). This is a very good thing for every athletes except bodybuilders. You see, estrogens protect muscle cells from the training-induced damages (5-6). It means that one can train more without damaging his muscles. Recovery will also be much faster. But for bodybuilders, the training-induced damages are a key ingredient to trigger growth. Nolvadex will therefore reduce the muscle building effects of resistance training.

    As for the impact of Tamoxifen on IGF-1, it simply demonstrates another estrogen-like action of Nolvadex. By rendering the liver less sensitive to growth hormone (probably by reducing the liver density of GH receptors), estrogens and tamoxifen diminish the production of IGF-1. This action of estrogens explains why women produce less IGF-1 than men eventhough the have a higher GH level.

    Nolvadex and Muscle Definition

    Within 24 to 48 hours, Nolvadex is able to greatly increase muscular definition. As a result, bodybuilders assume Nolvadex will help them reduce their bodyfat level. But this rapid cutting action of Nolvadex is due to an anti-estrogenic action on water retention. Estrogens will make you hold water. Nolvadex will produce the opposite effect. But it says nothing about the impact of Tamoxifen on bodyfat. Depending upon your own production of estrogens and your estrogen receptor density on adipocytes, Nolvadex can act as an antagonist (which would help you lose fat) or an agonist. In that case, Nolvadex will make you fatter especially in the lower body area.

    Conclusion: if the introduction of Nolvadex 25 years ago was a brilliant idea, times have changed. Very effective anti-aromatase drugs (such as Letrozole or Anastrazole) have been introduced. They will fight gynecomastia, help prevent the anti-anabolic actions of estrogens, fight fat and water retention. They will also boost natural testosterone production far more effectively than Nolvadex. So, it is up to you to decide whether you wish impair your rate of progression with an outdated drug or move on to the 21st century.

    Bibliography:

    (1) Max SR. Androgen-estrogen synergy in rat levator ani muscle: glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase. Mol Cell Endocrinol. 1984 Dec;38(2-3):103-7.

    (2) Rance NE, Max SR. Modulation of the cytosolic androgen receptor in striated muscle by sex steroids. Endocrinology. 1984 Sep;115(3):862-6.

    (3) Kobori M, Yamamuro T. Effects of gonadectomy and estrogen administration on rat skeletal muscle. Clin Orthop Relat Res. 1989 Jun;(243):306-11.

    (4) Suzuki S, Yamamuro T. Long-term effects of estrogen on rat skeletal muscle. Exp Neurol. 1985 Feb;87(2):291-9.

    (5) Koot RW, Amelink GJ, Blankenstein MA, Bar PR. Tamoxifen and oestrogen both protect the rat muscle against physiological damage. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 1991;40(4-6):689-95.

    (6) Naessens G, De Slypere JP, Dijs H, Driessens M. Hypogonadism as a cause of recurrent muscle injury in a high level soccer player. A case report. Int J Sports Med. 1995 Aug;16(6):413-7.

  9. BBC NEWS | Health | Bodybuilders' 'breast drug abuse'

    Bodybuilders' 'breast drug abuse'
    Some bodybuilders abuse the cancer drug tamoxifen to negate the breast-boosting effects of steroids, University of Glamorgan researchers found.

    Steroids are derived from testosterone, but if levels of the male hormone are too high in the body, it is converted into oestrogen and men grow breasts.

    A survey of 200 gym users found 22% took tamoxifen to reverse this effect.

    Cancer experts expressed concern over the findings, published in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine.

    The researchers compared the results of this survey, carried out last year, with one carried out in 2000 when just one to two per cent said they had taken tamoxifen.

    They also found 11% of bodybuilders took human chorionic gonadotrophin to stimulate the testes, which wither due to excessive steroid use.

    The researchers, from the University of Glamorgan's Health and Exercise Science Research Unit, say bodybuilders turn to steroids because they see themselves as too "weedy" - in a condition which is the opposite of anorexia.

    But they are then forced to move on to using a ****tail of other drugs to counteract the effects of the steroids.

    Abscess risk

    Professor Bruce Davies, who led the research, said: "Gym-goers are increasingly resorting to steroids and prescription drugs to counteract their altered body images.

    "Sufferers of negative or heightened body image issues will go to extremes to meet their desired goals and doctors need to be more aware of the efforts 'bigorexics' will go to."

    "Our results corroborate research undertaken in the US, that is, an increasing number of non-athletes are resorting to a combination of drugs with the sole intention of improving their physical appearance."

    Professor Davies also warned bodybuilders were risking abscesses in their muscles, because they were injecting counterfeit drugs using aftershave rather than alcohol as a "sterilising" agent.

    He called for the medical profession to recognise the needs of this group.

    "There needs to be greater awareness of the psychological reasons of prescription drug and steroid abuse, and counselling and appropriate medical treatment made available."

    Dr Kat Arney, cancer information officer at Cancer Research UK, said: "Tamoxifen is a potent and effective drug for treating breast cancer. Like all medication it can have side effects, so it should not be used without medical supervision.

    "Bodybuilders who take tamoxifen or other inappropriate prescription drugs are gambling with their health."

  10. nice post. my thoughts,

    premise: Prop is the best Test-Ester.
    CED59: I agree totally. If it allows for the most maintainable gains I don't know. Long Esters yield retainable gains usually. Based on the short'est' ester is best argument, we'd say that suspension gains would be more retainable. obviously, not the case

    premise: EQ, need to be used 12 weeks.
    CED59: I agree, but for a different reason however, you can frontload EQ 1000,1000,800 and it will be active at over 600mg in your body mid-way week 4.

    premise: Some anabolic steroids don't shutdown HPTA.
    CED59: Vague statement. Shutdown is dose dependent. Avoiding shutdown is possible though, that is correct.

    premise: AI used year round.
    CED59: I agree 95%. I don't get the estrogen sides but, if you are taking finasteride - I'd recommend it. Aromasin, ATD or 6oxo. not Letro or Adex! <-- bad news, in my opinion
    My Little Site about Hair Loss & Anabolics-
    hair loss from steroids dot com

  11. Quote Originally Posted by CEDeoudes59
    nice post. my thoughts,

    premise: Prop is the best Test-Ester.
    CED59: I agree totally. If it allows for the most maintainable gains I don't know. Long Esters yield retainable gains usually. Based on the short'est' ester is best argument, we'd say that suspension gains would be more retainable. obviously, not the case

    premise: EQ, need to be used 12 weeks.

    CED59: I agree but for a different reason, however, you can frontload EQ 1000,1000,800 and it will be active at over 600mg in your body.

    premise: Some anabolic steroids don't shutdown HPTA.
    CED59: Vague statement. Shutdown is dose dependent. Avoiding shutdown is possible though, that is correct.

    premise: AI used year round.
    CED59: I agree 95%. I don't get the estrogen sides but, if you are taking finasteride - I'd recommend it. Aromasin, ATD or 6oxo. not Letro or Adex! <-- bad news, in my opinion
    Great resoponse!

    In response to you:

    The REASON that suspension is not best for well-maintained gains, is because it has a PROFOUND impact on the HPTA, due to the RAPID rate at which it is systemically absorbed. Ergo, shutdown occurs within DAYS; this is NOT the case with the perfectly released PROP.

    SHUTDOWN of the HPTA is also DRUG-dependent. NOT all compounds inhibit the PITUITARY.

    They ALL however, inhibit the testes.

    [R]

  12. I must be getting to bed. LOL

    It is 7:40 *AM* here in Florida.

    I was up witha CHICK all night. VERY successful SATURDAY.

    Im out fellas....unless I can not resist responding....lol.


    [R]

  13. suspension is tricky. nobody should ever simply 'come-off' suspension and head to post cycle therapy. your gains will disappear. I'd suggest being on 250mg of Test E throught the suspension run and 2-3 weeks thereafter to solidify gains

    master, read what I wrote in your rep comments.. for real
    My Little Site about Hair Loss & Anabolics-
    hair loss from steroids dot com

  14. Quote Originally Posted by The Master
    Take your shot buddy.

    BE OBJECTIVE.

    I am sure this will be a GREAT discussion!

    [R]
    dude...if you're going to come back from a banning under a different handle, at least use an email address that doesn't contain the previous handle

    I'm also curious as to hwat you are looking to gain from this. Your post as if you're running a marketing campaign.

    Now, with that being said "I DO" agree with some of the things you've mentioned. But, if you're to stick around, you're going ot have to tread lightly and keep the ****iness level to a minimum. I just wanted to give you fair warning that you will be gone again if you're not careful.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
    dude...if you're going to come back from a banning under a different handle, at least use an email address that doesn't contain the previous handle

    I'm also curious as to hwat you are looking to gain from this. Your post as if you're running a marketing campaign.

    Now, with that being said "I DO" agree with some of the things you've mentioned. But, if you're to stick around, you're going ot have to tread lightly and keep the ****iness level to a minimum. I just wanted to give you fair warning that you will be gone again if you're not careful.
    Fair enough.

    I am TRULY here just to share info.

    Not marketing or advertising for anything.

    Good bro's here...

    [R]

  16. ross, I've seen you multiple times in this city
    haha creepy

    kwycke, get on aim real kwycke
    My Little Site about Hair Loss & Anabolics-
    hair loss from steroids dot com

  17. You listed Anabolic 2006 as a reference against Nolvadex???

    Ihave Anabolics 2004, and from memory (i've read it a few times, but its been a long time) Lwellyn recommends its use over Clomid, and believe it is necessary over HCG.

    You know HCG is suppresive in itself right? So you would argue that an AI is BETTER at restoring testicular function than a SERM - is that corrrect?

  18. Why are you copying and pasting LOADS of **** like
    "Abscess risk"

    I thought we were talking about steroids.. not abscess risks from incorrect injecting procedures?>

  19. Quote Originally Posted by solarize
    You listed Anabolic 2006 as a reference against Nolvadex???

    Ihave Anabolics 2004, and from memory (i've read it a few times, but its been a long time) Lwellyn recommends its use over Clomid, and believe it is necessary over HCG.

    You know HCG is suppresive in itself right? So you would argue that an AI is BETTER at restoring testicular function than a SERM - is that corrrect?
    This is actually a gray area...
    HCG, like AAS, dose dependent in regards to suppression I have found/read. 250-500ius ED is not suppressive (SWALE, Anthony Roberts). But at 1000ius+ is it super suppressive.

    here's anthony roberts' 'ultimate PCT'
    Week Nolvadex HCG Aromasin Vitamin E
    1 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20mgs/day 1,000iu/day
    2 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20mgs/day 1,000iu/day
    3 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20mgs/day 1,000iu/day
    4 20mgs/day 20mgs/day
    5 20mgs/day
    6 20mgs/day

    Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) by Anthony Roberts

    I think Aromasin is awesome. But by our standards that level of Nolva is very low. I would run 250ius of HCG ED instead and 40mg of Nolva, 25mg of Aromasin and the suggested Vitamin E.
    My Little Site about Hair Loss & Anabolics-
    hair loss from steroids dot com

  20. the_master,Dude, all of yoour sources are secondary sources.

    If you had any formal education you know you'd be laughed out of an academic environment providing secondary sources to backup your claims.

    I do agree with a few things you've said, but there is also very much that sounds plain stupid. A few of those issues have been addressed and you've failed to provide decent sources. On such example was canadian_champ asking for a source on your claim that test doesn't shut down your (or supress) your HPTA with between 150-300mg/wk.

    I know this to be wrong because I did quite a bit of searching on the subject when I was digging up information on HRT. Right now, the burden of proof is on you and you've ducked the subject by posting an unrelated study.

    Then, you make claims of "simple chemistry" regarding the inability to frontload EQ to make a considerable increase in free EQ, but, firstly...describing the effects of undec. on steroid hormones and their blood levels with respect to dosage administration is not "simple chemistry" that everybody knows. You're not goign to learn about that in a basic chem. classroom. So, prove that its "simple chemistry" by doing the calculations yourself. Find the rate of decay of that ester calculate for a frontload and figure out how much free test you would have, even after a week, of a huge frontload of 1.5g or so. Its only simple algebra afterall.

    The burden of proof is on you with all of these claims my friend. you're making claims with little to back them up.

  21. any AAS can be frontloaded, its all about half-lifes (lives?)
    those interested can google 'steroid calculator'
    My Little Site about Hair Loss & Anabolics-
    hair loss from steroids dot com

  22. Quote Originally Posted by CEDeoudes59
    any anabolic steroids can be frontloaded, its all about half-lifes (lives?)
    those interested can google 'steroid calculator'
    bingo...it literally is simple algebra. you need a rate of decay and a time, that's it. you can find out exactly how much would be in you at any given time. with enough frontloaded you can have quite the hormone levels pretty quick.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
    bingo...it literally is simple algebra. you need a rate of decay and a time, that's it. you can find out exactly how much would be in you at any given time. with enough frontloaded you can have quite the hormone levels pretty quick.
    yep, that's why to start a cycle of 500mg of Test E is just stupid. By Week 6ish its a reasonable low-moderate anabolic level.
    you get the initial dbol kickstart for 4weeks and 3weeks where you feel like you are off completely
    My Little Site about Hair Loss & Anabolics-
    hair loss from steroids dot com

  24. Quote Originally Posted by CEDeoudes59
    yep, that's why to start a cycle of 500mg of Test E is just stupid. By Week 6ish its a reasonable low-moderate anabolic level.
    you get the initial dbol kickstart for 4weeks and 3weeks where you feel like you are off completely
    Could you better explain what you mean by this statement? I'm not sure what you mean by week 6 you will have a low-moderate anabolic level.
    Thanks

  25. Keep it civil guys. You have a good chance at a productive conversation. Let's see what we can learn or disprove.

  26. he makes some good points about PCT which is making my question my own friggin PCT with Nolva Torm and he said I def should not go with SD as a cycle.

    I feel like there is too much for me to learn this quickly to make the switch though.


    Also, Master you told me you're father is super rich as he is a "multi millionaire" well I'm a 21 year old kid on summer break before I go back to school so fly me down, show me some ****, get me some pus while your at it, and show me what I need to know. I couild use some time in FL, NY is getting redundent

  27. Quote Originally Posted by US-Marine
    he makes some good points about post cycle therapy which is making my question my own friggin PCT with Nolva Torm and he said I def should not go with superdrol as a cycle.

    I feel like there is too much for me to learn this quickly to make the switch though.


    Also, Master you told me you're father is super rich as he is a "multi millionaire" well I'm a 21 year old kid on summer break before I go back to school so fly me down, show me some ****, get me some pus while your at it, and show me what I need to know. I couild use some time in FL, NY is getting redundent
    He does bring up some valid points through his posts, unfortunately they all look slightly familiar. Most likely because he is copying-pasting and/or taking all his ideas from secondary sources. Which explains why everytime he responds it is in the same tone, even his posts about the HPTA were two of the exact same.

    Nearest I can tell he has not justified any of his previous points with anything but secondary sources and irrelevant articles..

  28. so reading most of this gets me to the point i was making in the Gyno going away thread. I also am not a fan of the Nolv/Clo for PCT as i feel that they just mess the hormones up in the long run.

  29. Reading most of this gets me nervous that an individual who has not taken adequate time to do the neccessary research is going to come upon this thread and adopt the same attitude you dipslayed in your post. I will be the very first to admit there is ALOT of misinformation, myth, and improper lore that floats around on the internet boards about Steroids. However, alot of it is simply not.

  30. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier
    Reading most of this gets me nervous that an individual who has not taken adequate time to do the neccessary research is going to come upon this thread and adopt the same attitude you dipslayed in your post. I will be the very first to admit there is ALOT of misinformation, myth, and improper lore that floats around on the internet boards about Steroids. However, alot of it is simply not.
    its all based on you. If you can keep up with the BWork and all keep yourself in check then youll be good, just try to keep to the least amount of compounds in your system to maximize and realize the effects of each.
  •   

      
     

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