4AD to test base

Page 1 of 4 123 ... Last
  1. New Member
    crazypete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Age
    35
    Posts
    199
    Rep Power
    246
    Level
    12
    Lv. Percent
    9.31%

    4AD to test base


    JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN CHEMICAL SOCIETY
    #75 (1953)
    page 5930
    sondheimer et al.

    1g 4AD + 100mL chloroform + 10g MnO2 = test base 100% after 2 hours shaking at room temp

    yield is 93% when crystalized with methanol and filtered on paper

    MATERIALS: (check www.sciencelab.com i don't know if they are the cheapest, but they have everything)
    beakers
    hotplate with built in stirrer
    stirring bars
    distilled water
    methanol
    chloroform (can be cheaper grade)
    thermometer (-10 to 150 degrees celcius, its like $4)
    4AD powder
    activated MnO2 (if this cannot be found, make your own from potassium permanganate and manganese sulfate. also need ether if you do this step)
    filter paper
    funnel (holds filter paper)
    earlmeyer flask with vacuum tube out side for vacuum filtering
    scale

    now that is alot of MnO2 and it can be done with less. too simple you say, well your right its not that easy. the MnO2 available commercially is not always active. but the authors gave a method of preparing MnO2 that is easy and the product is very active and can be put in a stoppered jar with no loss of activity (those guys would make great homebrewers)

    HOW TO MAKE MnO2:

    take concentrated aqueous potassium permanganate and add to a stirred aqueous manganese sulfate solution kept at 90 degrees celcius (need a hot plate that has stirrer built in) until a slight excess was present (pink coloration of the supernatant liquid). stir at 90 degrees celcius for 15 minutes. filter, wash well with hot water, then methanol and ether. dry at 120 to 130 degrees celcius to a constant weight. it can be kept for several months in a well stoppered bottle with no loss of activity.

    how to get concentrated aqueous potassium permanganate: take distilled water and and add potassium permanganate until not more goes into solution (this is where a magnetic stirrer comes in handy). if you added too much, just add more water until all is in solution. duh!

    how to get aqueous manganese sulfate: same idea as above.

    METHOD:

    i am looking for a source of activated manganes dioxide so that the above does not need to be performed. once we get the manganes dioxide, all we have to do is mix the 4AD, MnO2 and chloroform in the ratios above, basically add the 4AD to chloroform on the magnetic stirrer and then add the MnO2 and leave it for 3 hours at room temp. add methanol to the solution and the test will crystalize and fall out of solution. filter and wash well with methanol. collect the filtrate and filter again on new filter paper and dry all the filter papers. if the filtrate still has crystals, filter with another paper. i would dry the first filter paper out well for a few days and weigh it. if its more than 80% yield, i wouldn't waste time trying to get the rest. if not, then take the filtrate and refilter to get rest of crystals. you kind of play it by ear. that's pretty much it.....oh yeah, don't forget to discard the powder properly as this is an experiment

    it is possible that much less MnO2 can be used. this will mean that the reaction will have to sit longer maybe a day or two, i don't really know. this will have to be found out. i want to try this in the lab where i can measure the ultraviolet spectrum to determine how long the complete reaction takes with different amounts of MnO2 and chloroform so as to minimize cost.

    why did i not do it step by step? well if you can't figure it out, then you probably shouldn't be doing it.

    THIS SHOULD WORK JUST THE SAME FOR 19nor4diol to NANDROLONE

    ba-doop, ba-doop, that's all folks

    cheers, pete

  2. Registered User
    jweave23's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  237 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    2,612
    Rep Power
    1454
    Level
    37
    Lv. Percent
    30.63%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    hmm, tempting me to try this instead of a syno conversion Pete. I'll wait though for other guinea pigs
  3. Registered User
    wojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    1,902
    Rep Power
    1099
    Level
    33
    Lv. Percent
    27.29%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    my head hurts lol..still gonna try it though
    •   
       

  4. Obese Member
    Alpha Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    935
    Rep Power
    615
    Level
    24
    Lv. Percent
    42.04%

    Definitely very interested. Would be curious to see someone who could try it and test the end result product…
  5. New Member
    tommy_69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Age
    41
    Posts
    57
    Rep Power
    171
    Level
    7
    Lv. Percent
    22.06%

    Is there a way to find out if the mno2 at sciencelabs is active.. ie that would save alot of work lol
  6. Senior Member
    scotty2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Age
    41
    Posts
    1,138
    Rep Power
    717
    Level
    26
    Lv. Percent
    71.23%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Originally posted by jweave23
    hmm, tempting me to try this instead of a syno conversion Pete. I'll wait though for other guinea pigs
    Stick to the syno pork. I don't think your chemistry level is above a bunsen burner. Looks like something for you lab geeks, speaking of which, why hasn't the biggest geek chimed in here yet?
  7. Registered User
    jweave23's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  237 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    2,612
    Rep Power
    1454
    Level
    37
    Lv. Percent
    30.63%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Originally posted by scotty2


    Stick to the syno pork. I don't think your chemistry level is above a bunsen burner. Looks like something for you lab geeks, speaking of which, why hasn't the biggest geek chimed in here yet?
    lol, that's what I was thinking too

    Funny, I got a D my first time in Chem 101, but the bunsen burners are just too fun to play with
  8. Obese Member
    Alpha Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    935
    Rep Power
    615
    Level
    24
    Lv. Percent
    42.04%

    Originally posted by scotty2
    Stick to the syno pork. I don't think your chemistry level is above a bunsen burner. Looks like something for you lab geeks, speaking of which, why hasn't the biggest geek chimed in here yet?
    Doesn’t look too terribly technical. BTW, what’s a bunsen burner?

    Although, if it works, might be an opportunity for someone to make and sell a kit…… for research purposes of course.

    Originally posted by jweave23
    Funny, I got a D my first time in Chem 101, but the bunsen burners are just too fun to play with
    Richard Pryor, is that you. Don't burn yourself
  9. New Member
    crazypete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Age
    35
    Posts
    199
    Rep Power
    246
    Level
    12
    Lv. Percent
    9.31%

    i have already contacted sciencelabs to see if they have active MnO2 or if they can get it at a reasonable cost. if you can get active MnO2, then it is jokes. all you do is mix the 4AD into the chloroform and add the MnO2 and stir it for a few hours. then add methanol to crystalize the test and filter it out. that's much simpler than the syno conversion. as for kits, what the **** for? you have to mix three things at room temp for about three hours and then add methanol, you get crystals, filter. it really can't get simpler than that. what i'm going to do that is more complicated is try to figure out how little MnO2 we can use and still get a complete reaction. this will make it cheaper, but we will probably have to let it sit overnight or something. the cool part is that the reaction is 100% specific and proceeds to completion. the 93% result obtained in the journal article is what was collected at the end as pure test base. even if we are sloppy, we should get better than 80%, if you're careful, there is no reason that you can't match the experimental results. like pat arnold said it is very easy. i'm quite sure that this is what he was talking about.

    i'm going to be out for a week or two so y'all know why you won't be hearing from me for that time

    cheers, pete
  10. New Member
    rjones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Age
    33
    Posts
    110
    Rep Power
    199
    Level
    9
    Lv. Percent
    19.07%

    This looks very promising, has anyone checked on where to get active MnO2? This does look alot better than a syno kit. It should be cheaper, and if you don't get a high yield, you will have test base + 4-ad, no big deal, and no estrodiol.
  11. Registered User
    badbart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Age
    41
    Posts
    550
    Rep Power
    421
    Level
    19
    Lv. Percent
    48.02%

    Thumbs up


    Sounds great, I need to keep up on this one. Anyone know how to subscribe to a thread without posting something?
  12. Registered User
    wojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    1,902
    Rep Power
    1099
    Level
    33
    Lv. Percent
    27.29%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    um bart u just posted...hehe
  13. Registered User
    jweave23's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  237 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    2,612
    Rep Power
    1454
    Level
    37
    Lv. Percent
    30.63%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Hmm, now it is really tempting Pete! If I can find out where to get active MnO2 quickly, I may be all over it! 4-ad at around $1/gram is damn cheap
  14. New Member
    RVEXLER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Posts
    91
    Rep Power
    191
    Level
    8
    Lv. Percent
    57.58%

    Great thread! My chemistry knowledge is pretty much nil. sciencelabs does have manganese dioxide reagent. Is this the active version?
  15. Obese Member
    Alpha Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    935
    Rep Power
    615
    Level
    24
    Lv. Percent
    42.04%

    The cheapest price I was able to find on a hot plate/stirrer was around $350. I was actually considering purchasing one for my "other experiments" before reading this thread. But that's pretty pricy. Anyone have any other suggestions that don't involve hiring an out of work baker with a propencity for stirring for days at a time.
  16. New Member
    crazypete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Age
    35
    Posts
    199
    Rep Power
    246
    Level
    12
    Lv. Percent
    9.31%

    if we can get MnO2, then a $70 stirrer would do the trick, as we do not need heat. see if you can buy an old one from a high school. i have not heard back from science labs. will post when i do.
  17. New Member
    rjones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Age
    33
    Posts
    110
    Rep Power
    199
    Level
    9
    Lv. Percent
    19.07%

    Would anyone who has a stirrer or could pop for one be interested in maybe splitting the cost of a first "experimental" batch? Seems like buying the supplies in bulk looks alot cheaper, and you might have to get active MnO2 in bulk. For example, at sciencelab, chloroform: $19 for 100 ml, $25 for 500 ml.
  18. New Member
    pogue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    425
    Rep Power
    14011
    Level
    19
    Lv. Percent
    9.98%

    would this be safe to use transdermally or injected?

    with the chemical by products that it has the potential to produce, and the substances using to create it, i'm just wondering

    my chemistry knowledge is definintely lacking, but i'm just wondering if some residiual chemicals left over from the process could stay in the batch and cause problems later when you try and use it in the real world
  19. New Member
    tommy_69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Age
    41
    Posts
    57
    Rep Power
    171
    Level
    7
    Lv. Percent
    22.06%

    the crystals that are created shoudl be pure test .. so no need to worry about by products thats why u "wash" it with methanol..
  20. New Member
    RVEXLER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Posts
    91
    Rep Power
    191
    Level
    8
    Lv. Percent
    57.58%

    Maybe I'm not doing my math right, but at 19.53 for the 100 ml required to produce less than 1 gram of test base, and adding the cost of the Mn02, it seems that we would easily be in the $20 per gram range which is substantially higher than what it would cost to by the test base itself.

    Am I wrong on this?
  21. Obese Member
    Alpha Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    935
    Rep Power
    615
    Level
    24
    Lv. Percent
    42.04%

    Originally posted by RVEXLER
    Maybe I'm not doing my math right, but at 19.53 for the 100 ml required to produce less than 1 gram of test base, and adding the cost of the Mn02, it seems that we would easily be in the $20 per gram range which is substantially higher than what it would cost to by the test base itself.

    Am I wrong on this?

    Based on my math (using Sciencelab’s pricing)

    Price/Gram of manganese dioxide (MnO2) - $.016/gram
    Price/mL of Chloroform - $.0517/mL

    At $1/gram for 4 AD, and using the equation

    1g 4AD + 100mL chloroform + 10g MnO2

    The price should be:

    1g-4AD x (1$/gram) + 100mL-Chlorofrom x ($.0517/mL) + 10g-MnO2 x (.016) = $6.33 for a 93% yield

    Thus, the price per gram is approx $6.8/gram

    The synovex conversion cost me approx $7/gram for materials.

    Of course, this assume Sicenclab’s manganese dioxide is active.
  22. Advanced Member
    Kitchen Chemist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    951
    Rep Power
    623
    Level
    25
    Lv. Percent
    7.1%

    500ml for $25 would be $5 per gram plus the 4ad. But do you need 100ml for each gram?
  23. Advanced Member
    Kitchen Chemist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    951
    Rep Power
    623
    Level
    25
    Lv. Percent
    7.1%

    I've seen test base for under $1 a gram though too.
  24. Registered User
    wojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    1,902
    Rep Power
    1099
    Level
    33
    Lv. Percent
    27.29%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    ok well how many of u have access to test base powder? didnt think so
  25. Advanced Member
    Kitchen Chemist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    951
    Rep Power
    623
    Level
    25
    Lv. Percent
    7.1%

    Originally posted by wojo
    ok well how many of u have access to test base powder? didnt think so
    I have access, just was saying bro


  26. Registered User
    wojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    1,902
    Rep Power
    1099
    Level
    33
    Lv. Percent
    27.29%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    well ur one of the few not a lot of guys on here know where to find it and dont wanna play james bond getting it..that was my point..plus most powders come from china and theres no way in hell im accepting something from china right now
  27. Advanced Member
    Kitchen Chemist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    951
    Rep Power
    623
    Level
    25
    Lv. Percent
    7.1%

    Cause of SARS? It'll be everywhere soon but what are the chances of getting it? 1000 people out of how many million people living there, i'll take my chances.
  28. Registered User
    wojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    1,902
    Rep Power
    1099
    Level
    33
    Lv. Percent
    27.29%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    the stuff survives on dry surfaces,its airborne..this is the one everyone has always feared..glad ur not worried
  29. Advanced Member
    Kitchen Chemist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    951
    Rep Power
    623
    Level
    25
    Lv. Percent
    7.1%

    Glad im not worried?
    Think about it, you gonna run your life in fear of this ****? I live my life not worrying about **** all, why bother? It's like people scared to fly because of terrorist ****, how many flights go in and out everyday compared to how many successful terrorist attempts.
  30. Registered User
    wojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    1,902
    Rep Power
    1099
    Level
    33
    Lv. Percent
    27.29%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    firmly agree with u on that one..ur numbers up u can do nothing about it..sars is non treatable..why take unnecessary chances..not affraid to live my life just not ordering from china for any gear parts for a long long time
  31. Advanced Member
    Kitchen Chemist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    951
    Rep Power
    623
    Level
    25
    Lv. Percent
    7.1%

    Thing is, where do you think all these liquid research companies and chemo gets his stuff from?
  32. Registered User
    wojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    1,902
    Rep Power
    1099
    Level
    33
    Lv. Percent
    27.29%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    good point but who said i was using them?
  33. Advanced Member
    Kitchen Chemist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    951
    Rep Power
    623
    Level
    25
    Lv. Percent
    7.1%

    No one said you were, just making a point was all. Everyone is different, makes me laugh my ass of when i see some old lady wearing a mask over her face though, even before sars.
  34. Registered User
    wojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    1,902
    Rep Power
    1099
    Level
    33
    Lv. Percent
    27.29%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    me too as i never ever get sick,heard a lady in the liquor store the other day tell everyone in there that they would be going to hell because they had not accepted god as the lord and saviour because they were drinking..what she was doing in a liquor then i have no idea i myself was gambling buying lotto tickets..lmao.crazy crazy world..but it keeps it interesting
  35. Advanced Member
    Kitchen Chemist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    951
    Rep Power
    623
    Level
    25
    Lv. Percent
    7.1%

    Hehe, what a dumb bitch. Ignorant ass peeps like that piss me off. My mom for eg. telling me i better not juice or else... While she's holding a ****ing cigarette in her hand, my god.
  36. Registered User
    jweave23's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  237 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    2,612
    Rep Power
    1454
    Level
    37
    Lv. Percent
    30.63%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    I have one source with test base, and it was $12 a gram!!!! So needless to say, if I can get for around $5-8 for a trans, than I'm down.
  37. Registered User
    wojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    1,902
    Rep Power
    1099
    Level
    33
    Lv. Percent
    27.29%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    hmmm jweave check ur emails
  38. I am faster than 80% of all snakes
    Dwight Schrute's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  221 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Age
    41
    Posts
    12,911
    Rep Power
    7018

    Originally posted by Kitchen Chemist


    I have access, just was saying bro



    Shhhhhhh........
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
  39. Registered User
    wojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    1,902
    Rep Power
    1099
    Level
    33
    Lv. Percent
    27.29%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    um jweace u do realize cyber-rights is a .NET not a .com right? lol check ur email in ur sig bro
  40. Advanced Member
    Kitchen Chemist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    951
    Rep Power
    623
    Level
    25
    Lv. Percent
    7.1%

    Hehe, bobo, i aint telling Did you blow your load when you saw the prices?
  

  
 

Similar Forum Threads

  1. How to add an ester to test base?
    By tank8140 in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-22-2007, 01:52 PM
  2. Test base to test cyp?
    By syko in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 07-11-2006, 10:16 PM
  3. Problem with syno conversion to test base?
    By mildain in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 01-01-2006, 03:22 PM
  4. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 08-05-2003, 10:20 PM
  5. 4AD to TEST at HOME
    By crazypete in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 03-18-2003, 08:17 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Log in
Log in