Letrozole vs. Nolvadex
- 05-31-2006, 07:03 PM
Letrozole vs. Nolvadex
I have 2 questions:
1) I am about to run my 1st cycle of test cypionate (1-10) and Dbol (1-4), and I would like to run an anti-estrogen throughout the course to prevent side effects.
---- Should running Nolvadex during the cycle allow me to GROW more actual muscle than Letrozole? Which one is best for gains?
2) I DO have some natural pubertal gyno, through no fault of my own. My only options at this point are A) surgery, or B) long-term anti-estrogen use (Nolvadex or Letrozole are the only ones I've heard of working.)
-----Which one of these has BEST chance of reducing pre-existing gyno?
I've never tried a long-term anti-estrogen use, but since I would probably need them during this cycle, I figure I should try to kill 2 birds with 1 stone here.
(Ie: Use an anti-estrogen to prevent steroid side effects, and possibly reduce the pubertal gyno too. )
However, its never been clear to me how much estrogen is actually best, or needed, for growth... or which Anti-E allows for the most true gains during a cycle. Its also never been clear to me if any drugs can actually reduce pubertal gyno, but I figure its worth a try.
If this could be sucessful, it would be a GREAT option vs. future surgery.
- 05-31-2006, 07:17 PM
As for estrogenic side effects, letro is the way to go. It binds very strongly to the aromatase, much stronger than ATD. Nolva is good for inhibiting gyno, but the addition of letro should help that situation as well due to lower serum estrogen levels.
Just remember that inhibiting estrogen will actually make you gain less. Estrogen, although it has some negative side effects, actually has a lot of benefits while on cycle such as increased strength, better skin, etc.
- 05-31-2006, 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by Landmonster
can you provide a little more info?
other supps youre taking along with gear? (hopefully)
in answer to your question using an aromatase inhibitor will reduce water retention and glycogen uptake caused (from what we know) in some way shape or form by estrogen. using nolva will block the estrogen mostly at your nipple, preventing gyno but leaving enough receptors open elsewhere to give you the anabolic effects you can get with estrogen.
05-31-2006, 07:26 PM
AI vs SERMS in regards to gyno, let the battle begin.
05-31-2006, 07:29 PM
23Originally Posted by jomi822
228 right now
5 years lifting
Other supps: Vitamins, whey protein, creatine, fish oil.
05-31-2006, 08:52 PM
What are good things out there that are less likely to cause gyno? Without test im not sure what else to run, tren/npp are things that can aggrevate already existing gyno so that is out, so what are your options after that for injectables? Boldenone? Im just curious what are common things used besides that.Originally Posted by jomi822
05-31-2006, 09:13 PM
good question, i'm interested also... bumpOriginally Posted by snakebyte05
05-31-2006, 09:25 PM
if you are sensitive to gyno i would use one of the shorter acting esters of test (TEST PROP) due to the lower build up of estrogen.Originally Posted by NevrEnuf
winstrol is actually beneficial in many cases for those who are prone to gyno as it is reported to cause a decrease in progesterone activity.
masteron is also a decent steroid in regards to strength and size gains and isnt known to aggravate gyno. here is an excerpt----
"Masteron is a favorite of athletes with preexisting gynecomastia and those who want to avoid water retention. Drostanolonum has a short half life therefore frequent administrations are required, this also makes it suitable for tested athletes - as long as they discontinue Masteron 2 weeks prior to urine analysis they should have no problem passing"
other steroids that are known to be useful for those sensitive to gyno are anavar and primabolan (very expensive).
05-31-2006, 09:47 PM
On cycle, Letro 1.25mg EOD for prevention. PCT, nolva hands down
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC
05-31-2006, 09:53 PM
Well first let's have a look at the steroids you've chosen, Testosterone aromatizes very easily and d-bol even more so, BUT d-bol converts into a super-estrogen that is MUCH more potent, so if your concerned about estrogenic sides, drop the d-bol and look into another oral to kick start with, you could use oral primobolan (very mild though), anavar, winstrol, if you can get it use Turinabol, it's VERY similar to D-bol but it leans more to the anabolic side than the androgenic side and only converts a little to estrogen. If I were you i'd do Test E+Turinabol. But considering it's your first cycle you'd do fine without anything other than Testosterone. If you can get it use Proviron along with your testosterone at 50mg, this will act like nolvadex BUT won't lower igf-1 levels plus it will free up bound testosterone. If you can't get it, run 10mg of nolvadex throughout if you REALLY feel you need to and up it if your getting signs of gyno. Personally i'd only use it if your seeing gyno appear.
05-31-2006, 10:00 PM
I heard that if you ran Nolvadex for an entire cycle, it was virtually impossible to get estrogen related gyno.
True / false?
I am also not changing drugs, all I have to to use now are Test Cyp. and Dbol.
I want to gain mass, but I don't want to deal with developing gyno either. This shouldn't be an impossible demand!
Even if it doesnt REDUCE my existing gyno.... well that's fine in a sense, but it damn well better not make it worse!
05-31-2006, 10:03 PM
It depends on the dose and everyone is different. Running it for the whole cycle would lower your igf-1 levels, also estrogen helps to store carbohydrates as glycogen in your muscles and liver. Honestly the sides of Testosterone are REALLLLLLY overblown.
05-31-2006, 10:07 PM
I dont "know" how sensitive I am to gyno or not really.
I know that I developed lumps under each nipple when I was a freshman in highschool. It was not bodyfat related (too much adipose tissue), or anything like that, because I was a 120lb cross country runner. Since that time, its never really gotten better or worse. It only looks worse if I get fatter, or bloated looking.
I have tried M1t in the past for 2 weeks, with 2 week PCT of 6-0X0 (stupid me...) and later I tried 2 different 4-week long cycles of nolvadex and letrozole, without any steroids, and neither one seemed to have an effect on it either way.
05-31-2006, 10:10 PM
When you squeeze your nipples do you have clear fluid come out?
05-31-2006, 10:14 PM
no. But i can feel lumps under there... maybe something like a peanut or something.Originally Posted by CHAPS
These are pics of me a few weeks ago @ 234. It may not be apparent that I have gyno, b/c it looks pretty decent if my nipples are hard, vs soft.
Also, it looks better from the front, vs the side.
its just something that bothers me and I want it gone.
05-31-2006, 10:17 PM
Haha oh God, not this debate again!!!
05-31-2006, 11:20 PM
in this case run 20mgs a day (dont forget) of nolva and chances of any gyno are slim. if you were to mix letro or anastrozole (arimidex) in at .25 every night along with the 20 mgs of nolva ED there would be very very very very little chance of any form of gyno.Originally Posted by Landmonster
if youre worried about igf-1 levels you should run igf-1 lr3 during your cycle on a lab rat so at least its getting the beneifeits
05-31-2006, 11:43 PM
Nolvadex is a SERM, which doesnt actively kill estrogen, just keeps it from binding to tissue... which is ideally what you want right? you get some of the health & anabolic benefits of estrogen, without getting gyno.Originally Posted by jomi822
As I understand it, Letrozole kills estrogen before it starts to circulate.... unless I dont understand it. Running letrozole, gyno should be an impossibility because theres no circulating levels of estrogen to begin with!
Personally, it seems like gyno should be impossible ON EITHER ONE, if you were running them correctly. 1 keeps estrogen from binding to boobs, the other keeps estrogen from forming?
If both work by different mechanisms....
The question then is....
1) which one has best chance at reducing pre-existing gyno?
2) Which one should allow for most anabolism during the cycle?
06-01-2006, 12:25 AM
Letrazole doesn't "kill" estrogen. It is calssified as an AI or aromatase inhibitor. Aromatase is an enzyme that most principally converts androstenedione to estrone and testosterone to estradiol. It basically prevents testosterone from being turned into estrogen.Originally Posted by Landmonster
06-01-2006, 12:37 AM
using an aromatase inhibitor will not flat out eliminate the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. The mount of estrogen you are preventing from forming depends on how much gear you are using and your dosage of the aromatase inhibitor.Originally Posted by Landmonster
if you are looking to experience the good side effects of estrogen (skin, muscle mass, etc) then use nolvadex as it will block estrogen mainly at the nipple and allow you to recieve estrogenic benefeits.
1 pre existing gyno question- use an aromtase inhibitor at high doses and nolvadex TOGETHER to reduce existing gyno. ATD (rebound xt and other supplements contain this) is known to be pretty good for this purpose if you want to go completely legal.
2. 20 mgs of nolvadex a day will allow the most anabolism and prevent any gyno from occurring.
06-02-2006, 05:06 PM
Doesn't look like gyno to me, but if your getting puffiness i'd go with Nolvadex. And it's debatible whether or not nolvadex will effect your gains. Personally i'd use Proviron or nolvadex and if you really want to use an AI use Arimidex or Aromasin, Femara is REALLY potent stuff.
06-02-2006, 10:51 PM
Has anyone actually used Letrozole and noticed a DECREASE in the amount of gains?
06-02-2006, 10:54 PM
It is gyno, but it doesnt look too terrible if my nipples are hard.Originally Posted by CHAPS
There are noticable physical lumps underneath each nipple, which you can see from a side shot, and you can feel if you squeeze them.
Honestly, I am not concerned with the way it "looks" unless my nipples are soft... but generally they are soft and puffy rather than hard or tight.
I consider this gyno, and I'd like my nipples to be harder all the time and the lump to be gone.
06-02-2006, 11:02 PM
I've ran nolva every day i've been on cycle. Im 3 monthes out of cycle and still have gyno, and im still taking nolva,atd(just stopped) and cabergoline.
I just have lumps, no visible signs though... and lactation which is terrible.
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