Administration of DHEA increases REM sleep

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    Administration of DHEA increases REM sleep


    Seems DHEA is gaining support, the more studies I read through.

    DHEA administration increases rapid eye movement sleep and EEG power in the sigma frequency range

    E. Friess, L. Trachsel, J. Guldner, T. Schier, A. Steiger and F. Holsboer
    Max Planck Institute of Psychiatry, Department of Psychiatry, Munich, Germany.

    Dehydroepi-androsterone (DHEA) exhibits various behavioral effects in mammals, at least one of which is enhancement of memory that appears to be mediated by an interaction with the gamma-aminobutyric acidA (GABAA) receptor complex. We investigated the effects of a single oral dose of DHEA (500 mg) on sleep stages, sleep stage-specific electroencephalogram (EEG) power spectra, and concurrent hormone secretion in 10 healthy young men. DHEA administration induced a significant (P < 0.05) increase in rapid eye movement (REM) sleep, whereas all other sleep variables remained unchanged compared with the placebo condition. Spectral analysis of five selected EEG bands revealed significantly (P < 0.05) enhanced EEG activity in the sigma frequency range during REM sleep in the first 2-h sleep period after DHEA administration. In contrast, the EEG power spectra of non-REM sleep were not affected, nor were the nocturnal time course curves of plasma cortisol, growth hormone, or testosterone concentration. The results suggest that DHEA administration has a mixed GABAA-agonistic/antagonistic effect, exerted either directly or through DHEA-induced changes in steroid metabolism. Because REM sleep has been implicated in memory storage, its augmentation in the present study suggests the potential clinical usefulness of DHEA in age-related dementia.

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    First off, thanks - this is interesting.

    I'm guessing, perhaps incorrectly, that the 500 mg dose was sometime immediately prior to bedtime (although it doesn't say that). If that is true, it would seem at odds against something I had heard previously; namely that DHEA should be taken in the AM to avoid a negative impact on sleep.

    Any thoughts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau
    First off, thanks - this is interesting.

    I'm guessing, perhaps incorrectly, that the 500 mg dose was sometime immediately prior to bedtime (although it doesn't say that). If that is true, it would seem at odds against something I had heard previously; namely that DHEA should be taken in the AM to avoid a negative impact on sleep.

    Any thoughts?

    First off I just spent 20 minutes sifting through studies trying to find more of them that support the fact that DHEA increases REM sleep, however, every study I found referenced the study I just showed you, so it seems to be the only published study.

    Secondly, I searched for the exact half life of oral DHEA. It actually absorbs pretty quickly an dthe half life ranged from 18-25 hours in the blood in the experiments.

    That would mean that you wouldn't need to take it before bed and technically would make no difference if taken in the morning or at night.

    I attached a graph from the study. Large increases in test even at only 50mg oral dose .
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    Am I incorrect in believing that DHEA preferentially converts into estrogen?...meaning most (but not all) gets converted into various estrogens?

    If so, then it would seem wise to couple it with some sort of AI.

    This study is interesting in that it seems to indicate that DHEA use during times of studying or intense learning might be a good idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD
    First off I just spent 20 minutes sifting through studies trying to find more of them that support the fact that DHEA increases REM sleep, however, every study I found referenced the study I just showed you, so it seems to be the only published study.

    Secondly, I searched for the exact half life of oral DHEA. It actually absorbs pretty quickly an dthe half life ranged from 18-25 hours in the blood in the experiments.

    That would mean that you wouldn't need to take it before bed and technically would make no difference if taken in the morning or at night.

    I attached a graph from the study. Large increases in test even at only 50mg oral dose .

    Wow - that was fast. Thanks VERY much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau
    Wow - that was fast. Thanks VERY much.
    Haha yes I have been quite the loser today. No prob man. If I come across something later I will hit ya up though.
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    I think it would be fascinating to see how DHEA could be used to counter excessive fatigue both mental and physical in normal adults. Try it from both regular dosing and to see how it affects energy levels and then large dose experiments ie 500mgs say in someone doing large amounts of mileage, long periods high output etc. Its estro capabilties could also be great for increased GH and Glyco recovery in certain sports if bodybuilding wasn't the primary focus.
    My The 1 LOG: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/254164-my-one-log.html
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    I am curious of the actual age of the subjects.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD
    First off I just spent 20 minutes sifting through studies trying to find more of them that support the fact that DHEA increases REM sleep, however, every study I found referenced the study I just showed you, so it seems to be the only published study.

    Secondly, I searched for the exact half life of oral DHEA. It actually absorbs pretty quickly an dthe half life ranged from 18-25 hours in the blood in the experiments.

    That would mean that you wouldn't need to take it before bed and technically would make no difference if taken in the morning or at night.

    I attached a graph from the study. Large increases in test even at only 50mg oral dose .
    Can you please repost the graphes with more pixels so it can read clearly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werewolf
    Can you please repost the graphes with more pixels so it can read clearly.
    Actually I couldnt . I only have limited space for attachments and thats all the space i had left was if i made it that big. Download it to your desktop, though, then magnify it with Windows Viewer.
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    I am concerned about estrogen effects...years ago when I took andro I got bad sides and lumps under my nipples from the estrogen conversion. Now since DHEA is already a step closer to estrogen, I think there is considerable chance there could be even more conversion to estrogen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArnoldIsMyIdol
    I am concerned about estrogen effects...years ago when I took andro I got bad sides and lumps under my nipples from the estrogen conversion. Now since DHEA is already a step closer to estrogen, I think there is considerable chance there could be even more conversion to estrogen.

    Try out various dosages to see how you respond and keep an anti-estrogen on hand – just in case.

    I have been using dhea for years… love it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by James
    Try out various dosages to see how you respond and keep an anti-estrogen on hand – just in case.

    I have been using dhea for years… love it.
    What kind of dosages do you take and what effects have you noticed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArnoldIsMyIdol
    I am concerned about estrogen effects...years ago when I took andro I got bad sides and lumps under my nipples from the estrogen conversion. Now since DHEA is already a step closer to estrogen, I think there is considerable chance there could be even more conversion to estrogen.
    I am attaching a picture, if you look at it you will see that DHEA is not closer to test. than andro is,it is one step back.
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    Dr. D had posted that he really wasn't concerned with DHEA's ability to aromitize to estrogen becuase something about the main metabolite (a 5-alpha something) couldn't react as well.

    I'll see if I can find what he said and post it here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmh80
    Dr. D had posted that he really wasn't concerned with DHEA's ability to aromitize to estrogen becuase something about the main metabolite (a 5-alpha something) couldn't react as well.

    I'll see if I can find what he said and post it here.
    Haha I was just looking for that a minute ago. I actually read it somewhere else too, but was posting that picture up to show where DHEA is and how it makes its way to testosterone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD
    First off I just spent 20 minutes sifting through studies trying to find more of them that support the fact that DHEA increases REM sleep, however, every study I found referenced the study I just showed you, so it seems to be the only published study.

    Secondly, I searched for the exact half life of oral DHEA. It actually absorbs pretty quickly an dthe half life ranged from 18-25 hours in the blood in the experiments.

    That would mean that you wouldn't need to take it before bed and technically would make no difference if taken in the morning or at night.

    I attached a graph from the study. Large increases in test even at only 50mg oral dose .
    The DHEA and rem sleep connection concerns me for this very reason (the lack of studies). It makes me wonder who financed the original study and if there is a possible conflict of interest and biased results. If every other study that suggests this is simply referencing the same damn study, it appears to me that someone needs to replicate the experiment to see if it is valid. Its nice to see that the supp. (or at least us intelligent members) users are now focusing on the actual science and the data in such studies, but people have to understand how often these studies are negatively influenced by the interests of either study sponsors, the clinician's themselves, or their institution's vested interests.
    I am not sure how prevalent conflicts of interest and "biased" science is in Germany of present, but it is often atrocious in the US these days.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottyo
    The DHEA and rem sleep connection concerns me for this very reason (the lack of studies). It makes me wonder who financed the original study and if there is a possible conflict of interest and biased results. If every other study that suggests this is simply referencing the same damn study, it appears to me that someone needs to replicate the experiment to see if it is valid. Its nice to see that the supp. (or at least us intelligent members) users are now focusing on the actual science and the data in such studies, but people have to understand how often these studies are negatively influenced by the interests of either study sponsors, the clinician's themselves, or their institution's vested interests.
    I am not sure how prevalent conflicts of interest and "biased" science is in Germany of present, but it is often atrocious in the US these days.

    That is true, HOWEVER, it also makes sense that any respectable university more than likely wouldn't reference a source that they felt wasn't respected. And the fact that so many people cited it makes me feel a little better.

    I think one of the reasons there aren't a lot of studies on it is because there isn't much need for it. There are better things out there for them to spend their money when looking to improve sleep.
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    Man - it took me forever to find this! (Searching Dr. D and DHEA just brings about alot of posts where we say "Dr. D recommends DHEA" or some other crap. Bah!)


    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    This is the real issue: DHEA can convert to 5AD. 5AD doesn't convert to "estrogens" directly, and it doesn't really act as much of an estrogen itself. It does amplify the effects of other biological hormones in your system though. That's why guys use to stack it with test back in the old days, because when you take it on cycle, you get more miles out of lower doses of test, so to speak. Now, if you are using a SERM or steroidal AI with DHEA, the small amount that is converted into 5AD is OK, because if no estrogen is in your system, then there is no estrogenic expression to amplify. I've used 5AD before. It will make you grow tits in about 2 wks on a test cycle if you're not on an AI too. Even just 250mg/d of 5AD orally will promote gyno if you're not careful. But with 100-250mg DHEA, the conversion to 5AD is obviously low enough not to be a concern, or else you would all be pissed at me right now with tits and tiny little nuts wondering why the hell I gave you bad post cycle therapy info! I haven't. That's also why I say take my PCT advice exactly. Don't be adding or omitting stuff because it can make a difference sometimes! I've always been straight up with you guys. Sometimes it can be explained logically why something does or doesn't work, and other times it can't. But hey, if it works it works either way! Also, remember, DHEA is a 5-ene steroid. The 5-ene metabolic pathway can't convert to estrogen until if is isomerized to a 4-ene first. This is not a high yield conversion apparently. The amount of real estrogen (estradiol or estrone) that can be generated is less than 1/10 of 1%. Probably much less in fact, because I have honestly never experienced estrogenic sides from even high doses of DHEA period, and I am somewhat prone naturally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD
    That is true, HOWEVER, it also makes sense that any respectable university more than likely wouldn't reference a source that they felt wasn't respected. And the fact that so many people cited it makes me feel a little better.

    I think one of the reasons there aren't a lot of studies on it is because there isn't much need for it. There are better things out there for them to spend their money when looking to improve sleep.

    I definetly agree with your second point. As to the first one, that is a tricky question. The study may have been done by an expert in the field from a highly respected university (and therefore is cited often), but this does not mean that researcher bias is absent. In the past 10 years alone there have been a number of very visible examples of "problematic science"...often caused by financial or other conflicts of interests. And these are just the known cases. Unfortunately science is often much less "objective" than we think. Just means that one study is never enough IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottyo
    I definetly agree with your second point. As to the first one, that is a tricky question. The study may have been done by an expert in the field from a highly respected university (and therefore is cited often), but this does not mean that researcher bias is absent. In the past 10 years alone there have been a number of very visible examples of "problematic science"...often caused by financial or other conflicts of interests. And these are just the known cases. Unfortunately science is often much less "objective" than we think. Just means that one study is never enough IMO.
    That's the essence of the scientific method: Replicability.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArnoldIsMyIdol
    What kind of dosages do you take and what effects have you noticed?
    I have taken anywhere from 50 -2000g a day.

    My average is 200 – 500mg


    Some of the effects I have noticed are –


    Increased libido – hard on 24/7 (even on tren)

    Increased sense of well being

    Bodycomp changes

    The ability to eat and sleep like total **** and maintain a decent condition

    Mass gains at higher dosages.


    It should be noted that I never go off of dhea.

    I don’t use steroids much (I plan to change that) but when I do I notice no loss of gains when I come off.

    Dhea makes the transition very smooth for me.



    OR…. its all in my head.
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    Cool pic on the pathways.

    So I guess DHEA is easily absorbed by the liver? I remember reading that testosterone in pure form is not unless it is 17 alpha akalated. So what is different about DHEA that makes it get absorbed orally?
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    I'm skeptical still after seeing this study. The study worked for older people with low DHEA levels but in younger people it seems not to.

    Effect of oral DHEA on serum testosterone and adaptations to resistance training in young men.

    Brown GA, Vukovich MD, Sharp RL, Reifenrath TA, Parsons KA, King DS.

    Exercise Biochemistry Laboratory, Department of Health and Human Performance, Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa 50011, USA.

    This study examined the effects of acute dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) ingestion on serum steroid hormones and the effect of chronic DHEA intake on the adaptations to resistance training. In 10 young men (23 +/- 4 yr old), ingestion of 50 mg of DHEA increased serum androstenedione concentrations 150% within 60 min (P < 0.05) but did not affect serum testosterone and estrogen concentrations. An additional 19 men (23 +/- 1 yr old) participated in an 8-wk whole body resistance-training program and ingested DHEA (150 mg/day, n = 9) or placebo (n = 10) during weeks 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, and 8. Serum androstenedione concentrations were significantly (P < 0.05) increased in the DHEA-treated group after 2 and 5 wk. Serum concentrations of free and total testosterone, estrone, estradiol, estriol, lipids, and liver transaminases were unaffected by supplementation and training, while strength and lean body mass increased significantly and similarly (P < 0.05) in the men treated with placebo and DHEA. These results suggest that DHEA ingestion does not enhance serum testosterone concentrations or adaptations associated with resistance training in young men.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArnoldIsMyIdol
    I'm skeptical still after seeing this study. The study worked for older people with low DHEA levels but in younger people it seems not to.

    Effect of oral DHEA on serum testosterone and adaptations to resistance training in young men.

    Brown GA, Vukovich MD, Sharp RL, Reifenrath TA, Parsons KA, King DS.

    Exercise Biochemistry Laboratory, Department of Health and Human Performance, Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa 50011, USA.

    This study examined the effects of acute dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) ingestion on serum steroid hormones and the effect of chronic DHEA intake on the adaptations to resistance training. In 10 young men (23 +/- 4 yr old), ingestion of 50 mg of DHEA increased serum androstenedione concentrations 150% within 60 min (P < 0.05) but did not affect serum testosterone and estrogen concentrations. An additional 19 men (23 +/- 1 yr old) participated in an 8-wk whole body resistance-training program and ingested DHEA (150 mg/day, n = 9) or placebo (n = 10) during weeks 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, and 8. Serum androstenedione concentrations were significantly (P < 0.05) increased in the DHEA-treated group after 2 and 5 wk. Serum concentrations of free and total testosterone, estrone, estradiol, estriol, lipids, and liver transaminases were unaffected by supplementation and training, while strength and lean body mass increased significantly and similarly (P < 0.05) in the men treated with placebo and DHEA. These results suggest that DHEA ingestion does not enhance serum testosterone concentrations or adaptations associated with resistance training in young men.

    Well for 1 I have about 15 studies that will say Serum test did increase, but that isn't the point, I respect all studies. The main thing here is the age of the participants. They are very young, so obviously much higher dosages need to be taken since DHEA production is GREATLY inhibited during older age, about 90% is inhibited in people like aged 50 or some crazy number I read.

    Secondly, the main use for DHEA is PCT when levels mock those of people who are aged 50.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD
    Well for 1 I have about 15 studies that will say Serum test did increase, but that isn't the point, I respect all studies. The main thing here is the age of the participants. They are very young, so obviously much higher dosages need to be taken since DHEA production is GREATLY inhibited during older age, about 90% is inhibited in people like aged 50 or some crazy number I read.

    Secondly, the main use for DHEA is post cycle therapy when levels mock those of people who are aged 50.
    Oops I went back and read the study, I see they did test "young men".

    I'm still on the fence about DHEA but this has piqued my interest.

    Do you know of a study actually showing a test increase in younger men? That would be interesting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArnoldIsMyIdol
    Oops I went back and read the study, I see they did test "young men".

    I'm still on the fence about DHEA but this has piqued my interest.

    Do you know of a study actually showing a test increase in younger men? That would be interesting.
    Sure I will look for one bro. Again I wasn't being a **** in my last post or anything haha it was late so my wordinng sounded a bit malicious.

    But I originally started researching it for people with low test levels e.g. PCT or older folks. It is amazing how well DHEA works in older people. I think it has good implications in us too, possible keeping a more normal influx of test. Normally test is released in a pulsatile fashion, this might even that out. Or possibly we just need to take higher dosages such as 300-500. I am sure that is the case here.

    Anyone here taken that high dosages and is under 30 years of age?
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    Lake - looks like James has taken upwards of 2 grams (page 2) and he's only 30.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmh80
    Lake - looks like James has taken upwards of 2 grams (page 2) and he's only 30.
    Yeah I thought that might have been a typo honestly lol thats why I didn't say anything about it.


    James- did you notice different effects at 2g as opposed to say 200? I am really curious to hear about it for someone who is younger.

    I mean at 2g I believe that the cost:benefit ratio starts becoming a bit crazy but heck it still has implications, once, again for people in PCT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD
    James- did you notice different effects at 2g as opposed to say 200? I am really curious to hear about it for someone who is younger.

    I noticed mass/weight gains and what I have to describe as full blown *roid rage*

    Damn near felt out of control.

    That’s never happened to me on anything else.

    When I took a daily dosage of above 1000mg I used 10mg of nolva ed or eod and only stayed in that range for short spurts.

    I basically wanted to see what would happen with higher dosages and have been using it ever since (sanely.. kind of)

    One great effect at that dosage was the *eat tons and don’t get fat* effect

    Plus when you have a kilo of dhea powder lying around things like cost benefit ratios tend to fade out of focus.
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    I'm going to give DHEA a try. I pickedup a bottle tonight. I don't mind using mself as a guinea pig. I have not decided the dose though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by James
    I noticed mass/weight gains and what I have to describe as full blown *roid rage*

    Damn near felt out of control.

    That’s never happened to me on anything else.

    When I took a daily dosage of above 1000mg I used 10mg of nolva ed or eod and only stayed in that range for short spurts.

    I basically wanted to see what would happen with higher dosages and have been using it ever since (sanely.. kind of)

    One great effect at that dosage was the *eat tons and don’t get fat* effect

    Plus when you have a kilo of dhea powder lying around things like cost benefit ratios tend to fade out of focus.
    Interesting for sure bro. What did your dosage schedule look like and how did you do it? You said you were only at 1g of DHEA daily for a short time so I was just curious how you dosed it otherwise.

    Also how did the DHEA powder taste?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD
    Interesting for sure bro. What did your dosage schedule look like and how did you do it? You said you were only at 1g of DHEA daily for a short time so I was just curious how you dosed it otherwise.

    Also how did the DHEA powder taste?

    At the upper end I dosed it throughout the day a few hundred milligrams at a time.

    Otherwise its once a day usually in the morning.

    The powder is pretty much tasteless with maybe the slightest hint of bitter aftertaste.
  

  
 

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