hcg debate

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    hcg debate


    i've researched hcg for a while now. I am just started taking test cyp and prop at 400mgs cyp and 100mgs prop a week. Some people say take hcg when you are in cycle and some say save it for pct. Then there is the debate on how much to take. I was planning on taking it during my cycle at 500iu's 2x a week and just leave my nolva for pct. Does anyone have any suggestions or what worked best for them? Thanks

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    In my experiences, I use HCG while on cycle, and dont start administration until about week 4 or 5. I also only use 500mg/ per week (one injection). For PCT, I've used nolva in the past, but for my next cycle I plan on using toremifene (cuz of the great reviews I've seen on it, as well as some different studies).
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    Yeah there are mixed camps but according to the research I have done, which is limited, it seemed that on cycle is the best way to go and depending on how long your cycle is depends on when you should start. I was reading somewhere that very prolonged use of HCG can actually be detrimental so if you are running a 12 week cycle I would probably run 500 IU's twice a week start at week like 5 or 6. HCG by itself is actually suppressive so I don't see the point of putting in with PCT.
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    Honestly, there are alot of varying opinions on this topic. Some of the bigger issues in my mind are age, cycle length, dosages, and drugs when determining its usage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD
    Yeah there are mixed camps but according to the research I have done, which is limited, it seemed that on cycle is the best way to go and depending on how long your cycle is depends on when you should start. I was reading somewhere that very prolonged use of HCG can actually be detrimental so if you are running a 12 week cycle I would probably run 500 IU's twice a week start at week like 5 or 6. HCG by itself is actually suppressive so I don't see the point of putting in with post cycle therapy.
    Hey Man, I would like some feedback from you..

    I am looking for some studies that show HCG used with nolva will still be suppresive..( all the studies I can find show that the nolva will stop the suppressive nature of HCG). As you said HCG by itself is suppresive . But when adding nolva it will stop the suppressive nature of HCG. HCG blocks the the conversion of 17 alpha- hydroxyprogeserone ( 17 OHP) to testerone. Nolva will actually stop this blocking action from taking place. Also please see this thread when you have a chance.. http://anabolicminds.com/forum/anabo...-sustanon.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercedesdd
    Hey Man, I would like some feedback from you..

    I am looking for some studies that show HCG used with nolva will still be suppresive..( all the studies I can find show that the nolva will stop the suppressive nature of HCG). As you said HCG by itself is suppresive . But when adding nolva it will stop the suppressive nature of HCG. HCG blocks the the conversion of 17 alpha- hydroxyprogeserone ( 17 OHP) to testerone. Nolva will actually stop this blocking action from taking place. Also please see this thread when you have a chance.. http://anabolicminds.com/forum/anabo...-sustanon.html

    Oh wow, interesting bro. As I said I have limited knowledge of HCG as I have only used it once. I will research the subject matter for ya though and see if I can find anything on it, because I am interested in it as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD
    Oh wow, interesting bro. As I said I have limited knowledge of HCG as I have only used it once. I will research the subject matter for ya though and see if I can find anything on it, because I am interested in it as well.
    Right on man!!! Thanks!! I am still trying to find something that shows nolva would not work at stoping the suppressive nature.. Please check out the thread I posted above. There is lots of studies there I have posted ...
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    "The steroidogenic lesion produced in Leydig cells by
    gonadotropin stimulation has been attributed to an
    inhibitory effect of estrogen on 17a-hydroxylase and
    17,20-desmolase activity, with impaired conversion of
    progesterone to androgens. In animals treated with
    doses of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) or gonadotropin-
    releasing hormone (GnRH) that caused the
    decrease in desmolase activity, administration of the
    estrogen antagonist, Tamoxifen, prevented the development
    of the steroidogenic lesion."


    "However, Tamoxifen did not prevent the early
    steroidogenic lesion, as shown by the sustained reduction in
    pregnenolone production (by 60%) and testosterone production
    (by5 0%),d espite reversal of the late( i.e.l 7u-hydroxylase-
    17,20-desmolase) biosynthetic lesions by this compound."


    Link to Full Text
    http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/256/4/1915
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD
    "The steroidogenic lesion produced in Leydig cells by
    gonadotropin stimulation has been attributed to an
    inhibitory effect of estrogen on 17a-hydroxylase and
    17,20-desmolase activity, with impaired conversion of
    progesterone to androgens. In animals treated with
    doses of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) or gonadotropin-
    releasing hormone (GnRH) that caused the
    decrease in desmolase activity, administration of the
    estrogen antagonist, Tamoxifen, prevented the development
    of the steroidogenic lesion."


    "However, Tamoxifen did not prevent the early
    steroidogenic lesion, as shown by the sustained reduction in
    pregnenolone production (by 60%) and testosterone production
    (by5 0%),d espite reversal of the late( i.e.l 7u-hydroxylase-
    17,20-desmolase) biosynthetic lesions by this compound."


    Link to Full Text
    http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/256/4/1915
    Thanks man, I should have been more clear. The pct I like uses aromasin, HCG and nolva. The study you posted is good but the aromasin would halt the suppression of the estrogen engendered from the HCG.. Good read .. Can you find any studies that show using nolva and aromasin would not stop the suppressive nature of HCG?? Thanks again!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Get Big or Die
    i've researched hcg for a while now. I am just started taking test cyp and prop at 400mgs cyp and 100mgs prop a week. Some people say take hcg when you are in cycle and some say save it for post cycle therapy. Then there is the debate on how much to take. I was planning on taking it during my cycle at 500iu's 2x a week and just leave my nolva for post cycle therapy. Does anyone have any suggestions or what worked best for them? Thanks
    The genral consensis is that it is better to run it during the cycle. as posted above it isn't necessary to run it the entire cycle but at least the last half IMO. Also 250iu is fine for most things. if you need more then try using it more ofton rather then higher dosage. For me 250iu 3x a week was fine even running deca+tren
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    Quote Originally Posted by Get Big or Die
    i've researched hcg for a while now. I am just started taking test cyp and prop at 400mgs cyp and 100mgs prop a week. Some people say take hcg when you are in cycle and some say save it for post cycle therapy. Then there is the debate on how much to take. I was planning on taking it during my cycle at 500iu's 2x a week and just leave my nolva for post cycle therapy. Does anyone have any suggestions or what worked best for them? Thanks
    Whenever I find myself caught in the middle of this sort of debate I always head over to meso board and contact SWALE; he's a board certified endocrinologist and specializes in HRT, TRT, and different PCT protocols.

    I found that 250iu to 500iu a week while "on" will help you tremendously as you make the transfer into Pct. Since I usually end all my cycle with a short half life compound, I'll wait two days for it to clear the system and then run hCG again @ 250iu to 500iu for a consecutive 5days. Take two days off and Start normal PCT (using Clomid & nolva) for three to four weeks. My last cycle was 20wks in length and consisted of a number of different compounds. I started hCG about week 5 and then followed the protocol I just outlined. I have never had a better transition in to PCT and ending a cycle.

    Good luck,
    Sprt
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    Quote Originally Posted by size
    Honestly, there are alot of varying opinions on this topic. Some of the bigger issues in my mind are age, cycle length, dosages, and drugs when determining its usage.
    I have to agree ... Good points.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SprtNvolcoM
    Whenever I find myself caught in the middle of this sort of debate I always head over to meso board and contact SWALE; he's a board certified endocrinologist and specializes in HRT, TRT, and different post cycle therapy protocols.

    I found that 250iu to 500iu a week while "on" will help you tremendously as you make the transfer into Pct. Since I usually end all my cycle with a short half life compound, I'll wait two days for it to clear the system and then run hCG again @ 250iu to 500iu for a consecutive 5days. Take two days off and Start normal PCT (using Clomid & nolva) for three to four weeks. My last cycle was 20wks in length and consisted of a number of different compounds. I started hCG about week 5 and then followed the protocol I just outlined. I have never had a better transition in to PCT and ending a cycle.

    Good luck,
    Sprt
    Hey man, I would like to get some input from you on your above mentioned PCT protocol. Most people on here say dont use HGC during PCT due to its suppressive nature ..( except for me. I like hcg, aromasin, nolva for pct). Alot of people argue here with me about this. I am not here to argue just learn... Can you expalin why you would start your pct with 5 days of HCG and take to days off and then start clomid/ nolva? HCG works to inhibit LH secretion indiectly, simply by stimulating the production of testosterone( thus activating the negitave feedback loop) Another factor is testicular aromatase , whice rasies estrogen levels, again causing inibition and also the downregulation of the leydig cell LH receptor seems to play a role in HCG testicular desenitization and also the blocking the conversion of 17 OHP to testosterone as I said in my other post. Using HCG in the way you stated would seem to me to acually slow your recovery ( and rasie your estrogen ). If you where to run nolva/ aromasin in conjuction with the hcg it would stop the suppressive nature of the hcg.. I would just like to know your reason for your using your listed hcg protocol ( using it 5 days in a row)! Thanks for any input!!
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    Here is the pct protocol I am taking about..

    Week Nolvadex HCG Aromasin Vitamin E
    1 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
    2 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
    3 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
    4 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
    5 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
    6 20mgs/day

    And here is a link to a thread with info on it.. Thanks again for anyinput!!
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/anabo...-sustanon.html
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    To be honest with you, I really dont know that much about hCG. I simply followed the advice of SWALE; who happens to be a board certified edocrinologist. As I stated he also specializes in HRT, which calls on the use of hCG. Some of his patients are BBers as well.

    I went over to meso and tried to find SWALE's sticky, but it looks like they took it down (it was an old one). I did find some writings by SWALE, but non regarding this specific issue your discussing. I'll keep looking though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SprtNvolcoM
    To be honest with you, I really dont know that much about hCG. I simply followed the advice of SWALE; who happens to be a board certified edocrinologist. As I stated he also specializes in HRT, which calls on the use of hCG. Some of his patients are BBers as well.

    I went over to meso and tried to find SWALE's sticky, but it looks like they took it down (it was an old one). I did find some writings by SWALE, but non regarding this specific issue your discussing. I'll keep looking though.
    Thanks man!! Yea I know who swale is . I have spoke with him before... I am not sure but I think they took his stickes down because he lost his mod position on the meso board. I will keep looking also. So far everthing I find shows that nolva/ aromasin will stop the suppressive nature of HCG.. Thanks again for your input!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercedesdd
    Thanks man!! Yea I know who swale is . I have spoke with him before... I am not sure but I think they took his stickes down because he lost his mod position on the meso board. I will keep looking also. So far everthing I find shows that nolva/ aromasin will stop the suppressive nature of HCG.. Thanks again for your input!!
    Your welcome ... & yeah I think there was a little problem between SWALE and another member. I read the thread. It's unfortunate ... SWALE seems like a good guy, some one I wouldn't mind having around the board.

    Anyway ... I followed his advice and had a seemingly flawless recovery. That's all I can really attest to.

    Sprt
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    I found it ... It appears SWALE no frequents Steroidology.

    Quote Originally Posted by SWALE
    Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my post cycle therapy Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.

    Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer TRT for men. Wish me luck!

    Here it is:

    I advise my anabolic steroids patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

    Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

    If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

    The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

    I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

    I like arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

    All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SprtNvolcoM
    I found it ... It appears SWALE no frequents Steroidology.
    I have seen this before.. I have used hcg, nolva and clomid in the past for pct. I now prefer the aromasin , nolva hcg protocol as I find it to work for a very fast recovery with less gains lost. I have tried both methods with bloodwork begin done and I recover back to normal much quicker with the nolva,hcg, aromasin.. I did notice that swale now advises using only one SERM as opposed to using both! In the end you must go what works best for you though.. Thanks again for your input!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercedesdd
    I have seen this before.. I have used hcg, nolva and clomid in the past for post cycle therapy. I now prefer the aromasin , nolva hcg protocol as I find it to work for a very fast recovery with less gains lost. I have tried both methods with bloodwork begin done and I recover back to normal much quicker with the nolva,hcg, aromasin.. I did notice that swale now advises using only one SERM as opposed to using both! In the end you must go what works best for you though.. Thanks again for your input!!!
    If its keeping gains your worried about ... look into IGF during PCT.
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