- 05-12-2006, 06:59 PM
i've researched hcg for a while now. I am just started taking test cyp and prop at 400mgs cyp and 100mgs prop a week. Some people say take hcg when you are in cycle and some say save it for pct. Then there is the debate on how much to take. I was planning on taking it during my cycle at 500iu's 2x a week and just leave my nolva for pct. Does anyone have any suggestions or what worked best for them? Thanks
- 05-12-2006, 07:01 PM
In my experiences, I use HCG while on cycle, and dont start administration until about week 4 or 5. I also only use 500mg/ per week (one injection). For PCT, I've used nolva in the past, but for my next cycle I plan on using toremifene (cuz of the great reviews I've seen on it, as well as some different studies).
- 05-13-2006, 12:06 AM
Yeah there are mixed camps but according to the research I have done, which is limited, it seemed that on cycle is the best way to go and depending on how long your cycle is depends on when you should start. I was reading somewhere that very prolonged use of HCG can actually be detrimental so if you are running a 12 week cycle I would probably run 500 IU's twice a week start at week like 5 or 6. HCG by itself is actually suppressive so I don't see the point of putting in with PCT.
05-13-2006, 12:12 AM
Honestly, there are alot of varying opinions on this topic. Some of the bigger issues in my mind are age, cycle length, dosages, and drugs when determining its usage.
05-13-2006, 12:21 AM
Hey Man, I would like some feedback from you..Originally Posted by LakeMountD
I am looking for some studies that show HCG used with nolva will still be suppresive..( all the studies I can find show that the nolva will stop the suppressive nature of HCG). As you said HCG by itself is suppresive . But when adding nolva it will stop the suppressive nature of HCG. HCG blocks the the conversion of 17 alpha- hydroxyprogeserone ( 17 OHP) to testerone. Nolva will actually stop this blocking action from taking place. Also please see this thread when you have a chance.. http://anabolicminds.com/forum/anabo...-sustanon.html
05-13-2006, 12:31 AM
Originally Posted by mercedesdd
Oh wow, interesting bro. As I said I have limited knowledge of HCG as I have only used it once. I will research the subject matter for ya though and see if I can find anything on it, because I am interested in it as well.
05-13-2006, 12:36 AM
Right on man!!! Thanks!! I am still trying to find something that shows nolva would not work at stoping the suppressive nature.. Please check out the thread I posted above. There is lots of studies there I have posted ...Originally Posted by LakeMountD
05-13-2006, 12:38 AM
"The steroidogenic lesion produced in Leydig cells by
gonadotropin stimulation has been attributed to an
inhibitory effect of estrogen on 17a-hydroxylase and
17,20-desmolase activity, with impaired conversion of
progesterone to androgens. In animals treated with
doses of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) or gonadotropin-
releasing hormone (GnRH) that caused the
decrease in desmolase activity, administration of the
estrogen antagonist, Tamoxifen, prevented the development
of the steroidogenic lesion."
"However, Tamoxifen did not prevent the early
steroidogenic lesion, as shown by the sustained reduction in
pregnenolone production (by 60%) and testosterone production
(by5 0%),d espite reversal of the late( i.e.l 7u-hydroxylase-
17,20-desmolase) biosynthetic lesions by this compound."
Link to Full Text
05-13-2006, 12:55 AM
Thanks man, I should have been more clear. The pct I like uses aromasin, HCG and nolva. The study you posted is good but the aromasin would halt the suppression of the estrogen engendered from the HCG.. Good read .. Can you find any studies that show using nolva and aromasin would not stop the suppressive nature of HCG?? Thanks again!!Originally Posted by LakeMountD
05-13-2006, 02:11 AM
The genral consensis is that it is better to run it during the cycle. as posted above it isn't necessary to run it the entire cycle but at least the last half IMO. Also 250iu is fine for most things. if you need more then try using it more ofton rather then higher dosage. For me 250iu 3x a week was fine even running deca+trenOriginally Posted by Get Big or Die
05-13-2006, 05:39 PM
Whenever I find myself caught in the middle of this sort of debate I always head over to meso board and contact SWALE; he's a board certified endocrinologist and specializes in HRT, TRT, and different PCT protocols.Originally Posted by Get Big or Die
I found that 250iu to 500iu a week while "on" will help you tremendously as you make the transfer into Pct. Since I usually end all my cycle with a short half life compound, I'll wait two days for it to clear the system and then run hCG again @ 250iu to 500iu for a consecutive 5days. Take two days off and Start normal PCT (using Clomid & nolva) for three to four weeks. My last cycle was 20wks in length and consisted of a number of different compounds. I started hCG about week 5 and then followed the protocol I just outlined. I have never had a better transition in to PCT and ending a cycle.
05-13-2006, 05:41 PM
I have to agree ... Good points.Originally Posted by size
05-13-2006, 11:34 PM
Hey man, I would like to get some input from you on your above mentioned PCT protocol. Most people on here say dont use HGC during PCT due to its suppressive nature ..( except for me. I like hcg, aromasin, nolva for pct). Alot of people argue here with me about this. I am not here to argue just learn... Can you expalin why you would start your pct with 5 days of HCG and take to days off and then start clomid/ nolva? HCG works to inhibit LH secretion indiectly, simply by stimulating the production of testosterone( thus activating the negitave feedback loop) Another factor is testicular aromatase , whice rasies estrogen levels, again causing inibition and also the downregulation of the leydig cell LH receptor seems to play a role in HCG testicular desenitization and also the blocking the conversion of 17 OHP to testosterone as I said in my other post. Using HCG in the way you stated would seem to me to acually slow your recovery ( and rasie your estrogen ). If you where to run nolva/ aromasin in conjuction with the hcg it would stop the suppressive nature of the hcg.. I would just like to know your reason for your using your listed hcg protocol ( using it 5 days in a row)! Thanks for any input!!Originally Posted by SprtNvolcoM
05-13-2006, 11:36 PM
Here is the pct protocol I am taking about..
Week Nolvadex HCG Aromasin Vitamin E
1 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
2 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
3 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
4 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
5 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
And here is a link to a thread with info on it.. Thanks again for anyinput!!
05-14-2006, 04:03 PM
To be honest with you, I really dont know that much about hCG. I simply followed the advice of SWALE; who happens to be a board certified edocrinologist. As I stated he also specializes in HRT, which calls on the use of hCG. Some of his patients are BBers as well.
I went over to meso and tried to find SWALE's sticky, but it looks like they took it down (it was an old one). I did find some writings by SWALE, but non regarding this specific issue your discussing. I'll keep looking though.
05-14-2006, 06:30 PM
Thanks man!! Yea I know who swale is . I have spoke with him before... I am not sure but I think they took his stickes down because he lost his mod position on the meso board. I will keep looking also. So far everthing I find shows that nolva/ aromasin will stop the suppressive nature of HCG.. Thanks again for your input!!Originally Posted by SprtNvolcoM
05-14-2006, 06:49 PM
Your welcome ... & yeah I think there was a little problem between SWALE and another member. I read the thread. It's unfortunate ... SWALE seems like a good guy, some one I wouldn't mind having around the board.Originally Posted by mercedesdd
Anyway ... I followed his advice and had a seemingly flawless recovery. That's all I can really attest to.
05-14-2006, 07:03 PM
I found it ... It appears SWALE no frequents Steroidology.
Originally Posted by SWALE
05-14-2006, 08:58 PM
I have seen this before.. I have used hcg, nolva and clomid in the past for pct. I now prefer the aromasin , nolva hcg protocol as I find it to work for a very fast recovery with less gains lost. I have tried both methods with bloodwork begin done and I recover back to normal much quicker with the nolva,hcg, aromasin.. I did notice that swale now advises using only one SERM as opposed to using both! In the end you must go what works best for you though.. Thanks again for your input!!!Originally Posted by SprtNvolcoM
05-14-2006, 09:03 PM
If its keeping gains your worried about ... look into IGF during PCT.Originally Posted by mercedesdd
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