test E or sustanon

[insane lifter]

I am going to start my first cycle and was wanting some suggestions. I have done some research and I am undecided on which one to start with. Some people say the sustanon and others say the test E. I will have all the pct training covered from the information I have gotten off of the board. Just need some input for the cycle.

 

[mercedesdd]

I am going to start my first cycle and was wanting some suggestions. I have done some research and I am undecided on which one to start with. Some people say the sustanon and others say the test E. I will have all the post cycle therapy training covered from the information I have gotten off of the board. Just need some input for the cycle.

I would go with the test E at 500 mg per WK split into two injections( one mon and again on thurs). I perfer single esters any day!! What pct did you research and decide on ???

 

[insane lifter]

I am going to use nolva,retain, pct and perfect cycle by AX, and rebound x. Those are some of things I plan to use, I am still searching to make sure I get everything I need. I did read a post about using HGH or HGC post cycle, But I dont know much about it.

 

[mercedesdd]

I am going to use nolva,retain, post cycle therapy and perfect cycle by AX, and rebound x. Those are some of things I plan to use, I am still searching to make sure I get everything I need. I did read a post about using HGH or HGC post cycle, But I dont know much about it.

Have you bought all these items yet??

 

[mercedesdd]

You can use what you quoted if you pefer. The best pct is using HCG, aromasin , nolva and vit E. It goes like this!!

Week Nolvadex HCG Aromasin Vitamin E
1 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
2 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
3 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
4 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
5 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
6 20mgs/day

You can start it one week after your last injection of test E!!!!

 

[idunk42]

You can use what you quoted if you pefer. The best post cycle therapy is using HCG, aromasin , nolva and vit E. It goes like this!!

Week Nolvadex HCG Aromasin Vitamin E
1 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
2 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
3 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20-25mgs/day 1000iu/day
4 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
5 20mgs/day 20-25mgs/day
6 20mgs/day

You can start it one week after your last injection of test E!!!!

Actually, HCG is not the best thing to use during PCT. Its usually used during cycle.

 

[mercedesdd]

Actually, HCG is not the best thing to use during post cycle therapy. Its usually used during cycle.

I would agree in the past !!! Anthony roberts ( hookers ) PCT protocal ... Here is a link long but great read!! I have used this PCT with blood work and recovered quickly!!!

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=21196

 

[insane lifter]

I have the perfect cycle for liver support, because I thought of doing an oral cycle, but I think I may go the other route, it seems that alot of people say the orals are a lot harder on you. As for the other stuff, I have not bought it yet. I am assuming that the hgh is injectable and do I need to add it to my pct.

 

[idunk42]

Yeah, I have actually read through that before. I think it was Ubi who made a valid point that I totally agree with and that is that HCG is suppressive during post cycle. Also, hcg, is just a mimicker of the LH, and not true LH. In this case, it wouldnt help the axis return normally. I dont understand it completely, but I have had great success with running HCG 2x a week at only 250IU's per injection, starting at around week 5 or so and running it until I start PCT.

 

[mercedesdd]

I have the perfect cycle for liver support, because I thought of doing an oral cycle, but I think I may go the other route, it seems that alot of people say the orals are a lot harder on you. As for the other stuff, I have not bought it yet. I am assuming that the hgh is injectable and do I need to add it to my post cycle therapy.

Its HCG ( HGH is human growth hormone) You inject hcg into sub Q fat with a slin pin... The above post is by far the best PCT protocal . Anthony roberts is the guy who wrote the anabolic steriods ultimate research guide vol 1.

 

[idunk42]

I am assuming that the hgh is injectable and do I need to add it to my post cycle therapy.

We are talking about HCG, not HGH.

 

[idunk42]

The above post is by far the best post cycle therapy protocal . Anthony roberts is the guy who wrote the anabolic steriods ultimate research guide vol 1.

So have you tried this before?? Just because he states that its the best PCT protocal, doesnt make it the best. Im not sayin that it doesnt work for him, or if it in fact is the best protocal. Im just saying dont say its the best, because when it comes to this stuff, there's no such thing as the "best" protocal, especially for each individual person.

 

[mercedesdd]

Yeah, I have actually read through that before. I think it was Ubi who made a valid point that I totally agree with and that is that HCG is suppressive during post cycle. Also, hcg, is just a mimicker of the LH, and not true LH. In this case, it wouldnt help the axis return normally. I dont understand it completely, but I have had great success with running HCG 2x a week at only 250IU's per injection, starting at around week 5 or so and running it until I start post cycle therapy.

Hcg can be suppresive but at a dose of 500iu ED it should not be a concern and the aromasin/nolva will alleviate estrogen symtoms form the HCG( hrt docs use HCG at 1000mg ED for like 10 days ). The nolva with also help with LH ( to help send a single from the pituitary gland ). I used to use HCG in my cycles as well . During long cycles also using your aforementioned hcg protocal I liked it .. Well everyone has a diffrent way to use HCG .. I know that hookers PCT works great in recovery for me!! But what ever works for you is best!!!

 

[idunk42]

Ok, I understand fully what your saying. Im just trying to learn as much as possible. Thats whats crazy about all this stuff, is that were are continually learning new stuff everyday, and discovering new concepts that work better for some. Thanks for the info though.

 

[mercedesdd]

Ok, I understand fully what your saying. Im just trying to learn as much as possible. Thats whats crazy about all this stuff, is that were are continually learning new stuff everyday, and discovering new concepts that work better for some. Thanks for the info though.

Right on bro!! Learning and researching it whats it all about!!! I am following your fragment log very intrested .... Good log man!!

 

[glenihan]

DO NOT USE HCG POST CYCLE .. it IS suppressive .. i don't agree with MOST of what anthony roberts said

hcg is best used at 250-500iu 2x a week for 500-1000iu per week during cycle ... its tried and true and recommend by an actual HRT specialist, SWALE

 

[mercedesdd]

DO NOT USE HCG POST CYCLE .. it IS suppressive .. i don't agree with MOST of what anthony roberts said

hcg is best used at 250-500iu 2x a week for 500-1000iu per week during cycle ... its tried and true and recommend by an actual HRT specialist, SWALE

To each his own!!!! Whatever works best for you is what you have to go with !!!

 

[glenihan]

To each his own!!!! Whatever works best for you is what you have to go with !!!

this is not the proper advice for HCG .. i'm sorry but it IS suppressive and should not be used during HCG .. ask a knowledgable HRT doctor

 

[mercedesdd]

As I said before everyone uses HCG in diffrent ways . I am not trying to argue with you man!!! Here is some info on HCG used in PCT. It stated that in the physicians desk reference that the dose is 500iu per day !!! I know plenty of HRT / Endos that advise HGC for 10 days at 1000 iu per day.. Do you have any studies that show it is supressive at the 500iu dose without nolva or aromasin used in conjuction with it?? Again not trying to argue this is a learning fourm!!! Heres the info on PCT and HCG

As regards HCG's use of Post-Cycle-Therapy (PCT), smaller and more frequent doses after a cycle of AAS would give the best results with the least amount of side effects. A dose of 250iu to 500iu everyday (ed) for 2 to 3 weeks is plenty and should very little from person to person (3). The Physicians Desk Reference recommends 500iu/day, as did the late, great, Dan Duchaine. The smaller doses are sufficient enough to begin reversal of testicular atrophy and used in conjunction with nolvade, will help the already present problem of recovery without raising the levels of estrogen to high and increasing the risk of gynecomastia in the user. Lower doses of 250iu to 500iu also avoid the further risk of down regulating LH receptors in the testes. The old saying more is better definitely does not apply to the use of HCG. You don’t want to finish PCT after using too much HCG only to find out your back at the beginning again. Your best bet is to start at 250iu or 500iu ed for 5 or 6 days, and if you don’t notice anything happening (nuts dropping and getting bigger) up the dose slightly. Small doses like 500iu two days a week isn’t going to cut it like some people think. The only thing small doses of HCG ay be useful (sublingually)for is reducing symptoms of benign prostatic hyperplasia (7). Yeah, thats right, you can probably reduce some symptoms of an enlarged prostate with the use of small doses of HCG.

 

[mercedesdd]

Oh one more thing.. I do agree hcg can be suppressive but the nolva blocks the supprissive nature of HCG when they are run concurrently.. Also any of the suppression from the estrogen engendered by the HCG is going to be halted by the aromasin.. Here is some more info from the pct by hooker!!!

But are we still risking some inhibition and possibly delaying our recovery by using HCG? Probably not…you see, some studies in humans have shown that HCG does not actually have a direct effect on inhibiting LH release in men (22)(23), but rather (probably) works to inhibit LH secretion indirectly, simply by stimulating the production of testosterone (thus activating the negative feedback loop). Another factor involved is the induction of testicular aromatase, which raises estrogen levels, again causing inhibition. Unfortunately, yet another process, the downregulation of the Leydig Cell LH receptor itself, seems to also play a role in high dose HCG testicular desensitization. This is also done by HCG actually blocking the conversion of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) to testosterone (24). Nolvadex actually stops this blocking-action of HCG from taking place (25). Most likely, because of Nolvadex’s direct antiestrogenic effect and LH-upregulating effect on the Pituitary, suppression of gonadotropins via HCG is (25) almost totally stopped with concurrent administration of Nolvadex! So if we Use Nolvadex and we are only using HCG when we are low in gonadatropins, we won’t be inhibited by it at all! Right?

 

[mercedesdd]

The rest can be read in the link in my above post ( think it is in post number 7 above) ... So yes the hcg could be suppressive but the nolva and aromasin will take care of that!!!

 

[mercedesdd]

this is not the proper advice for HCG .. i'm sorry but it IS suppressive and should not be used during HCG .. ask a knowledgable HRT doctor

Dont be sorry !! lol !! Well hcg CAN be used as an effective compound in pct when used in conjuction with nolva and aromasin !!!!

 

[mercedesdd]

I wanted to get back the posters question about using test E or sust.. What do you guys think??

 

[mercedesdd]

Bump one more time!! what do you guys think ?? Test E or sust??? What do you think would be better for this bro ??

 

[mercedesdd]

Anyone!!!!

 

[glenihan]

ok after fully reading anthony roberts article as opposed to skimming it i'm even more opposed to what he's written

by his logic you should be able to use Nolva on cycle and NOT get shut down .. HCG is suppressive and Nolva will not "unsuppress" you while you are still adding the exogenous compound .. if it did do that than you could take nolva on cycle with test and still produce your own test .. but we all know it doesn't work that way

 

[mercedesdd]

ok after fully reading anthony roberts article as opposed to skimming it i'm even more opposed to what he's written

by his logic you should be able to use Nolva on cycle and NOT get shut down .. HCG is suppressive and Nolva will not "unsuppress" you while you are still adding the exogenous compound .. if it did do that than you could take nolva on cycle with test and still produce your own test .. but we all know it doesn't work that way

See this also not by hooker . Good study though!! Do you have studies that show how suppressive HCG is when used in conjuction with nolva and aromasin?? Again not trying to argue with you at all. All the studies I read show that nolva/ aromasin block the suppressive nature of HCG!! heres one study!!

Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.

Levalle OA, Suescun MO, Fiszlejder L, Aszpis S, Charreau E, Guitelman A, Calandra R.

Division Endocrinologia, Hospital Carlos Durand, Instituto de Biologia y Medicina Experimental, Buenos Aires, Argentina.

The effect of the antiestrogen tamoxifen (Tx) on the acute and chronic hCG administration was evaluated in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) and in normal men. An hCG test (5000 IU hCG) was performed before, after two months of hCG administration (2000 IU hCG three times weekly) and after two months of hCG + Tx (2000 IU hCG three times weekly plus 20 mg/day of tamoxifen). Blood samples were obtained before and following 24 and 72 h of every test to determine T, E, 17OHP and SHBG. T increased only in HH with both treatments (X +/- SEM: Basal: 97.9 +/- 19.7; hCG: 237.7 +/- 43.2; hCG +/- Tx: 204.7 +/- 10.7 ng/100 ml). 17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization. However, the association of Tx does not improve T serum levels, suggesting that E might not be the unique factor involved in the mechanisms for testicular desensitization.

 

[turkish]

Here's Anthony Roberts, who really doesn't know much about AAS, getting "pwned" by Swale (that's the actual word he used on post#74), about his PCT article :
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=134238595

 

[idunk42]

Here's Anthony Roberts, who really doesn't know much about anabolic steroids, getting "pwned" by Swale (that's the actual word he used on post#74), about his post cycle therapy article :
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=134238595

Best sh1t I've read all day! Reps! and Roberts is a d1ck by the way!

 

[mercedesdd]

Best sh1t I've read all day! Reps! and Roberts is a d1ck by the way!

Again can you post any studies that show that nolva and aromasin would not work at suppressing HCG? There are many that show it does I have not found any that show it does not ! enlighten me please .. Not here to fight just to learn !!

 

[glenihan]

i'm not aware of any studies, but will look around .. i wish BOBO would chime in .. he's pretty good with this stuff

i am leaving for vacation tomorrow though so i may not get back to this for a while

 

[mercedesdd]

i'm not aware of any studies, but will look around .. i wish BOBO would chime in .. he's pretty good with this stuff

i am leaving for vacation tomorrow though so i may not get back to this for a while

Sounds good man!! Have a good trip!!!

 

[mercedesdd]

Here's Anthony Roberts, who really doesn't know much about anabolic steroids, getting "pwned" by Swale (that's the actual word he used on post#74), about his post cycle therapy article :
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=134238595

Again not here to argue! But Hooker did write a book called anabolic steriods ultimate research guide . Which I know a few docs that use this book for insite . So your claim that he does not know much about steroids is insane!! And swale is a good HRT Doc and hooker is geared towards athletes using steriods !! Anyways please post something that shows that the aforementioned compounds would not supperess hcg!!! And again the post on this thread was about sust or test E which is better choice !! Anyone!!!

 

[idunk42]

Again not here to argue! But Hooker did write a book called anabolic steriods ultimate research guide . Which I know a few docs that use this book for insite . So your claim that he does not know much about steroids is insane!! And swale is a good HRT Doc and hooker is geared towards athletes using steriods !! Anyways please post something that shows that the aforementioned compounds would not supperess hcg!!! And again the post on this thread was about sust or test E which is better choice !! Anyone!!!

Here's a study on the topic at hand:
http://www.basskilleronline.com/hpta_reversal.html

Not sure if I understand all the numbers, but the only thing that sucks with it is the duration of the study. Its almost 10 weeks that its over.

 

[mercedesdd]

Here's a study on the topic at hand:
http://www.basskilleronline.com/hpta_reversal.html

Not sure if I understand all the numbers, but the only thing that sucks with it is the duration of the study. Its almost 10 weeks that its over.

Not sure when that study was done . But it shows that using HCG, nolva and in this study clomid( which aromasin would aid from the estrogen egendered by the HCG more so than clomid could. clomid is SERM and aromasin is a type 1 AI) It IS effective at stopping suppression of the HCG.. Good read.. Any studies that show that nolva and aromasin would not stop the suppressive nature of HCG!! Thanks for the post man!!

 

[idunk42]

yeah, i know that it was with clomid, but thats the closest thing I could find. I'll keep searching.

 

[mercedesdd]

yeah, i know that it was with clomid, but thats the closest thing I could find. I'll keep searching.

Thanks buddy!! I will to .. Everything I find on this topic shows that HCG used in conjuction with nolva/ aromasin stop the suppresive nature of HCG. As it did in the study you posted.. Heres to research :woohoo: LOL!!!!

 

[mercedesdd]

Here's Anthony Roberts, who really doesn't know much about anabolic steroids, getting "pwned" by Swale (that's the actual word he used on post#74), about his post cycle therapy article :
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=134238595

Oh and did you know Swale lost his moderation position at meso for that dispute???

 

[Rocky82]

back to the original post...it depends on your metabolism...personally I can get away with 250 mg sust EOD during a cutting cycle and not bloat, but 500 mg test e per week bloats me real bad. I prefer sust personally. I use it EOD with tren when cutting or bulking (for a bulk i'll add GH and either drol or dbol). I can get more total test in my system and the mix of esters keeps the bloat to a minimum.

Just my suggestion..

 

[turkish]

Oh and did you know Swale lost his moderation position at meso for that dispute???

So?

 

[idunk42]

So?

:icon_lol: Couldnt be said any better!

 

[mercedesdd]

So?

Nice reply!! LOL!! So it says alot !! And you are the one trying to start by posting that hookers knows nothing . As if you read the entire thread you posted from meso. Hooker won that argument hands down !!! Swale could not post anything( no studies) to go against what hooker said . Everytime he was asked to he dodged the question. So your reply of ,So, is very invaild .. As the staff at meso felt it was reason to take away his position as a mod it really says ALOT!! Again I am not here to fight just learn.. I would like to see some studies that show nolva would not help stop the suppersive nature of HCG ,not dipute some old thread between hooker and swale .. Again please enlighten me!!!

 

[mercedesdd]

:icon_lol: Couldnt be said any better!

HAHA that was great right! Your so funny !! Post a study thats shows nolva will not stop the suppressive nature of HCG. From the study you posted before it only HELPS show it does help stop the suppressive nature ....

 

[mercedesdd]

ok after fully reading anthony roberts article as opposed to skimming it i'm even more opposed to what he's written

by his logic you should be able to use Nolva on cycle and NOT get shut down .. HCG is suppressive and Nolva will not "unsuppress" you while you are still adding the exogenous compound .. if it did do that than you could take nolva on cycle with test and still produce your own test .. but we all know it doesn't work that way

by his logic you should be able to use Nolva on cycle and NOT get shut down .. HCG is suppressive and Nolva will not "unsuppress" you while you are still adding the exogenous compound .. if it did do that than you could take nolva on cycle with test and still produce your own test .. but we all know it doesn't work that way[/QUOTE]



The argument your making is totally stupid. Your saying that you can take nolvadex, whose action on 17-OHP prevents a product that stimulates the Testes to produce more testosterone is in some way analagous to using Nolvadex along with steroids (products that halt testosterone production).

In other words, your saying "If nolvadex prevents desensitation from occuring with a product that helps the body produce more testosterone, then it ought to do so with products that shut down testosterone production too" which is really stupid, and a totally unlike analogy. It's like saying "FixAFlat can inflate your tires and fix a hole, so therefore, if someone robs your tires, you should be able to use FixAFlat and fix the tire problem- because the problem is the same" But the problem is not the same. In one case, you're fixing a small hole (the desensitation of the leydigs cells) in another, there are no tires to fix (there is no testosterone, and we're not even talking about leydig cell desensitation).

Also, look up "desensitize" and "Leydig" on pubmed- you'll see that the desensitization is not caused py PKC, and is therefore likely to be caused by HCG's effects on 17-OHP. And those desensitizing effects from HCG are TOTALLY BLOCKED by using Nolvadex with it.

 

[mercedesdd]

Bump for any studies??? I am still trying to find some without any luck...

 

[mercedesdd]

back to the original post...it depends on your metabolism...personally I can get away with 250 mg sust EOD during a cutting cycle and not bloat, but 500 mg test e per week bloats me real bad. I prefer sust personally. I use it EOD with tren when cutting or bulking (for a bulk i'll add GH and either drol or dbol). I can get more total test in my system and the mix of esters keeps the bloat to a minimum.

Just my suggestion..

Do you run an AI on cycle to help with the bloat??

 

[Beebs]

Use test en

Dude, quit trolling... You say that you don't care to rehash an old arguement, but at the same time you bring up a bunch of crap about it. Again, not trying to start an arguement here.

 

[mercedesdd]

Use test en

Dude, quit trolling... You say that you don't care to rehash an old arguement, but at the same time you bring up a bunch of crap about it. Again, not trying to start an arguement here.

Not trolling dude. And not rehashing a old argument at all . If you look at my first posts on this thread you will see I was just stating a pct I think works best!! Other people then starting saying that HCG is not good for pct so I put some studies up to back what I am saying!! I would still like to see something the shows it is wrong !! Maybe you can find some study!!! And its not called trolling it is called researching dude !!!!

 

[Beebs]

Not trolling dude. And not rehashing a old argument at all . If you look at my first posts on this thread you will see I was just stating a post cycle therapy I think works best!! Other people then starting saying that HCG is not good for post cycle therapy so I put some studies up to back what I am saying!! I would still like to see something the shows it is wrong !! Maybe you can find some study!!! And its not called trolling it is called researching dude !!!!

I think you've got a good point about using hcg during pct, but you just come off as such a troll thats all. I'm not going to search for research when you've already got good studies for us. Thanks, and I'm just trying to help you out.

 

[glenihan]

i'm certainly no endocronology expert and i'm open to new ideas, but after really reading all of those posts i disagree when you say hooker won the argument

i'll put my trust in swale anyday over some internet dude with no credentials ... while i have no studies personally i do know that swale runs an HRT clinic and its my opinion that his method is the better one and i believe him when he discounts anthony roberts

as far as facts and/or evidence i suppose i can't provide any so i can't add anymore to the discussion ... but everyone remember to keep playing nicely