Has anyone here ever considered steroids/phs as "cheating" ?

JohnGafnea

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I'm not bashing or preaching. I'm actually pretty neutral, just a little curious on the mindset of everyone here.

I guess you can't really cheat if you are only competing against yourself, but has anyone here ever considered steroids/phs as an easy way out?

If so, what changed your mind?
 

spike1205

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Great question==but i guess it depends on your mind set--I dont think of lifting/bbuilding as a competition. I think its a good way to make myself look/feel better and for the most part increase my levels of health. Ive only done ph's so i cant comment about AS users but i would assume its the same thing, and i would feel the same if i ever did AS--do you think it is cheating?
 

wardog

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*sighs*I am so sick of this arguement. I would love to have all the juice bashers TRY a cycle just ONCE. It really is this simple:

1. If I do not eat correctly, I will do nothing but waste my gear.

2. If I do not train correctly, I will waste my gear

3. If I do not do post cycle recovery correctly, I will LOSE my gains. (and have wasted my gear)

Most people when "on" are 100% more focused on their diet and their training. It is just how it has to be to have them work successfully.

I have said it before, juice is like nitrous for a car. If the car is running well, and is at peak performance, nitrous will give it a solid "kick in the ass" If the car isnt in good condition..all you will do is blow a piston.
 
Jarconis

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theres an older guy that goes to my gym, and hes doing a deca only cycle at 300mg a week. He had confided in me that he's " disappointed" in steroids, and that they dont live up to their hype. He also stated that he doesn't want to eat too much either, because hes scared of getting his tummy back... so yeah, he falls under all of Wardog's criteria for the most part.
 

wardog

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Deca 300/week..ad no test? I bet ya post cycle he loses more than he started the cycle with due to HTPA shutdown. Friggin idiot..lol!
 
Sir Foxx

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Is it cheating when I eat more protein than someone else, and grow more? Is it cheating, when I figure out or learn a new technique or training system that my body responds to much faster than someone else? Gear/PH's are an advantage like anything else you do to improve yourself. Cheating is surgery and synthol. No work or thought involved.
 

JohnGafnea

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Good answer Wardog; steroids/ph give you another element of motivation to eat and train correctly.

Also what's synthol?
 

lvtrojan

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cheating

imo you really only get into "cheating" when you are engaging in some sort of competition where they are banned...i.e like a football player juicing in order to perform better than his competitors.

but then is it only "cheating" if you get caught?

when it comes to 99.99% of us who are not pro athletes, who train to look/feel better as was previously stated, in order to reach higher goals..then i feel it is not cheating.
 

baham99

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It is cheating if you're 130-150 and using 10 weeks of anadrol to get started on your first year of lifting. (Know ppl who did this). It is not cheating if you do the cycle right after forcing your body to go through every variation of dieting and excercising that it cannot possibly retain any more muscle tissue. Of course, it gets exponentially harder, so I'd say 75% potential is "deserving" enough of a cycle (juice), and not cheating.
 

bullfx

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"Use steroids or go home. Enough of crying and whining."
Ban Athletes Who Don't Use Steroids
by Sidney Gendin, Ph.D.


Isn't it time for the brainwashed public to know the truth about steroids? In their ideological zeal to ban "performance enhancing" drugs, national governments and the various local and international sports federations have ignorantly and self-righteously declared that steroid use is cheating, dangerous, and stupid. In fact, in general, it is neither dangerous nor stupid and it is cheating only because it has been capriciously commanded to be so.

In the first place, with respect to the alleged danger, people ought to know that there are dozens of steroids and it would be absurd to imagine that their risks are identical. Moreover, steroids come in two broad classes - the orals and the injectables. It is true that most of the orals have associated hazards but not a single one of them is as hazardous as smoking or drinking. The principle dangers of the injectables result from overdosing and, even so, they are mainly such alarming matters as acne and severe headache. Every legally obtainable prescription drug comes with a warning of dozens of worse side effects.

But what is that to you and me? Why should we legislate what risks people should run unless they can interfere with the rest of us? In our democratic, capitalist society many persons risk their last few dollars to start up businesses which will probably fail. We do not stop them. If and when they become multimillionaires we congratulate them. We don't permit people to drive without seatbelts because their accidents drive up insurance rates for the rest of us but we let people engage in the far riskier business of climbing mountains since the danger is mainly self-regarding. So enough virtue-parading preaching.

As for the so-called cheating, who really are the cheaters? The average steroid user spends about $100-150 per month while the supplement industries grow rich on suckering in the hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of foolish people spending up to $1000 per month on a variety of mumbo jumbo: androstenedione, 4-androstenedione, 19-androstenedione, androstenediol and the several 4, 5, 17, and 19 varieties of androstenediol, tribulus terrestris, enzymatic conversion accelerators, growth hormone stimulators, hormone-releasing peptides, testosterone "boosters", dozens of magical herbs and a ridiculous number of "non drugs" with unpronouncable names so they are always abbreviated such as HMB and DHEA. On top of all this, these folks who tend to be more affluent than steroid users, are pumping protein powders into their milk - $9 per day - and gobbling down protein candy bars - up to $3 each - while saving a bit of energy for screaming "Foul! Cheater!" at the poor steroid user. They are told by the manufacturers and distributors of these outlandish products that they look like steroids, feel like steroids and work like steroids. So? Why not ban them like steroids?

But I say ban them and only them. For one thing, they don't work as well as steroids. More importantly, what care I as a fan that someone sets a remarkable record because he used steroids? I pay money to see sporting events and I am entitled to an athlete's very best. Isaac Stern can afford a violin that few violinists and no high school orchestra player can afford. Is he taking unfair advantage of them? If I pay $60 to hear Stern and learn his tone was not up to par because he was too lazy to bring his own violin and borrowed a $50 one from a high school kid, I justifiably want my money back. What care I that he usually plays upon a $200,000 instrument? I am not bothered by this; I want his very best. Likewise, I want the very best an athlete can give me. I don't want to watch athletes who could have done better if only they had used steroids. Talk of steroid performance as unnatural is as ridiculous as complaining about artificial hearts. As for me I plan to have a T-shirt made for me that will read on its front: "Use steroids or go home. Enough of crying and whining."
 
Skye

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cheating time

Well in a way it is. I using for a different reason, I had back surgery a while back and am looking at AAS as a way of helping gaining back some of what I lost. I could do this naturally (my doctor about had a hart attack when he found out I was bench pressing again) but it could take years (was down for a long time) By doing (carefully) a couple of cycles I could be back in a year . I am already back to lifting and swimming 5-6 days a week and plan to do more. (After I get my strength back it will be time to diet.) Am I cheating? Yes. I just don’t care. It is only time that I am cheating.:cool:
 

crazypete

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if an athletic association bans steroids, then it is cheating to use no matter what apparently logical arguement you come up with. 'everyone else does it' is a copout and makes everyone cheaters. however if there is no ban or you are not part of any organization, then it is a personal decision for which you take all responsibilities. if you read enough posts on sites like these you will see that there are alot of responsible users who understand how to use them. just look at wardog's post above. you will also see stuff like 'i'm 5'9", 130 lbs, thinking of doing whatever cycle', then a month later, the person is asking questions about diet, routines, recovery and posting stuff like 'i gained 10 lbs in 8 weeks.' quite obviously such a person is not ready mentally or physically to use. at that size almost anyone can gain 10 lbs with a little thinking without use of juice.

synthol, you don't want any part of that. basically it is a MCT oil you inject into lagging areas or anything you want to be bigger. the oil sticks to the muscle somehow and presto instant size. as you can guess this is not even close to safe.

as for the article posted, i sorry, but this is as flawed as rush limbaugh's circular arguements (i'm pretty right wing on economic issues, don't care about social issues since society controls this more than government). if i'm competing, i want to win bad. i will always try, even if i know the other guy is juicing (for the record i do not). i want to be the best even if the competition has an advantage. i also expect organizations who claim to be drug free to enforce properly. yes alot of olympic athletes use steroids, but alot don't and seem to deal just fine. i guess i'm just an idealist, call me a fool, but i think that the olympic ideal is embodied in the competition, not the chemical games that are played behind the scenes.

skye, are you doing a proper rehab (not that dinky crap normal people do, but an athletic one)? have you gone and tried to find your weak areas and work on them? with a well thought out routine you could be back to your old condition within less than a year without juice and then use it to further enhance performance.

for everyone:
if one uses steroids as a quick fix, you are usually ignoring the real issues. if however, you are using steroids as a means to an end, then usually most other issues have been dealt with and the person is more likely to be responsible about it. although this is not always the case either. basically do all you can without it and be honest to yourself. ask yourself have i trained and ate and rested properly? if not, you won't be able to get the proper gains from juice either since your habits are not optimal. all to often we are our own worst enemy.

and for those athletes that get caught:
SHUT THE FVCK UP YOU PANSY AND TAKE IT LIKE A MAN. you knew damn well what you were getting into and if you didn't it your own fault. you are the reason why steroids are illegal. you need someone to hold your hand and tell you what you can and can't do. the laws are made for the safety of people like this, not the responsible users who are few.

protein is a FOOD. whey comes from milk

i'm done ranting for now ;)
cheers, pete
 
Skye

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I am doing way more rehab than the doctor wanted. And I worked for it too. My first set of pushups was 5 on my knees. I am now benching my own weight. The doctor was hoping that I would just be walking a mile or two a day by the end of the year. But you have a point about the lousy rehab the doctors’ use. I still don’t see how rolling the ball on your belly helps. Swimming and pushups did the trick and I am going up J

All the same I see all points here. If you are using steroid to gain an advantage that has been disallowed then it is most definitely cheating. However most informed people have realized that steroids are a major part of sports today. As a society we like what they do. (If you doubt this then go turn on “professional wrestling”, or look at the covers of the muscle mags. It should remove all doubt.) And no matter what the women’s mags say that type of body attracts attention. The fact that we condone it with one had and condemn it with the other can only show us to be hypocrites.

As for my waiting to naturally recover that will take years. I am no longer in my twenties. I am not willing to spend the next 3 years trying to gain what I could have in one. For that matter if I lived in Europe or could afford a private doctor (you know the kind) here I would easily have a prescription for this type of treatment. Only in the US is it not generally available.
 
Iron Warrior

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Hell no it ain't cheating. They are just used to help people take their physiques or game to the next level. Some may see it as cheating because it's illegal, or because they are jealous of bodybuilders so they cry foul.

Some idiots ruin the reputation of steroids by blaming their nervous breakdown, or broken marriage on steroids. This leads to public to believe that ANYONE who uses steroids is just as bad of a drug addict as those who spend their paychecks on crack. This ofcourse is far from the truth.
 

phil216

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Using steroids is not cheating by any means. To say it is cheating would imply that only a few use them and hence have an unfair advantage, when inreality nothing could be further from the truth since the vast majority are using so it is essential to use them just to level the playing feild.

I'm only cheating if I put my dick in a woman other then my wife
 

Viatrophy

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I'm going to post my own opinion which is sure to be unpopular:

I consider anyone smaller than me who use them cheating. They should have hit their staples and shown some consistency in their schedule before resorting to gear.

I consider anyone larger than me not cheating. They had hit their limit and were looking for an enhancement to bring them further and they took the plunge.

I've been natty save for a single cutting osta cycle and I'm frequently accused of using roids. I think people should hit that level before actually using them, if for no other reason than to demonstrate to themselves that they can effectively stick to a diet and training plan.

Smaller than me = cheating
Bigger than me = admirable
 

BlockBuilder

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I'm going to post my own opinion which is sure to be unpopular:

I consider anyone smaller than me who use them cheating. They should have hit their staples and shown some consistency in their schedule before resorting to gear.

I consider anyone larger than me not cheating. They had hit their limit and were looking for an enhancement to bring them further and they took the plunge.

I've been natty save for a single cutting osta cycle and I'm frequently accused of using roids. I think people should hit that level before actually using them, if for no other reason than to demonstrate to themselves that they can effectively stick to a diet and training plan.

Smaller than me = cheating
Bigger than me = admirable
You do realize that makes knowing sense whatsoever because everyone’s genetic potential is different. Someone who is smaller than you may have hit their genetic potential already. At the same time anyone can get very big and also very fat at the same time. I don’t consider that admirable at small unless you’re s true power lifter. Genetic potential TO ME is the biggest size you can achieve while maintains an 8-10 percent bodyfat. To me cheating is anyone who uses gear and lies about it. In sports if you use PEDs you are cheating. In bodybuilding lying about being on gear isn’t so much cheating as it is pathetic. The ONLY exception is being sponsored and the company you working for forcing you to lie under contract. Then I can kind of understand it. But if you are an average joe lifting and lying about using gear it’s just pathetic imo
 

MedRat

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I'm going to post my own opinion which is sure to be unpopular:

I consider anyone smaller than me who use them cheating. They should have hit their staples and shown some consistency in their schedule before resorting to gear.

I consider anyone larger than me not cheating. They had hit their limit and were looking for an enhancement to bring them further and they took the plunge.

I've been natty save for a single cutting osta cycle and I'm frequently accused of using roids. I think people should hit that level before actually using them, if for no other reason than to demonstrate to themselves that they can effectively stick to a diet and training plan.

Smaller than me = cheating
Bigger than me = admirable
I would only consider it cheating if I was in a competition like Olympic lifting or say the Tour de France. Otherwise no, we are born with free will. There are many potential risks, especially health risks, related to AAS use. People get jealous, they get competitive and everyone wants an edge.

My vote is no. If I was talking to someone and they started saying it was cheating id get up and walk away or Id show them the door.
 

Lionheart1776

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I view all PEDs as nothing more than another tool in a bodybuilder/athlete's tool box. I think that ideally the choice to use them should be purely a logical decision on the athlete's part after the athlete has decided how much of their future health they are willing to risk for the desired and expected short term performance boost. I like to apply the same risk/reward logic poker players use to decided what hands they want to play. Basically you weight the expected benefits and costs and try your best to assign reasonable odds to each positive and negative outcome to the decision in question and if you determine the expected benefits outweigh the expected costs of the decision, the decision would be considered to have a positive expected value, meaning that you wouldn't be unreasonable to make it. That is why I think experienced lifters on these forums so frequently discourage newer trainers from utilizing PEDs since the veteran trainers know from experience that the novice trainer will lack the skill and experience to extract enough value out of using the PEDs to justify the risk that those PEDs could bring to their future health, in other-words the decision would have a negative expected value.

In professional athletics almost everyone single athlete is pushing for every single advantage they can, due to the fact that they have every incentive to do so. Those who are better at beating anti doping tests are better players of the game in question since beating those tests is just another part of the game for as long as PEDs are accessible. Does anyone really think only Lance Armstrong was doping? Nope, the entire team was. There's a documentary about it on Netflix for those interested in the topic. Lance was better at extracting the value out of the PEDs and also better at hiding their use from WADA, so in my opinion. Fair move on his part. I would argue that he even paid a steep price for the advantages he got from the PEDs, the odds of getting a very deadly form of cancer at such a young age are fantastically small, so I am very curious what impact his PED use had on him getting it. The team member's who stayed natural probably have less future health/publicity risks to worry about, so their choice to accept diminished performance today has it's own benefits in the future.
 
mikeymike85

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I'm going to post my own opinion which is sure to be unpopular:

I consider anyone smaller than me who use them cheating. They should have hit their staples and shown some consistency in their schedule before resorting to gear.

I consider anyone larger than me not cheating. They had hit their limit and were looking for an enhancement to bring them further and they took the plunge.

I've been natty save for a single cutting osta cycle and I'm frequently accused of using roids. I think people should hit that level before actually using them, if for no other reason than to demonstrate to themselves that they can effectively stick to a diet and training plan.

Smaller than me = cheating
Bigger than me = admirable
You bring up a thread thats 15 years old, and then make a chodey foster comment like that. So my african american amigo, who eats like **** and doesn't even take protein- has the physique of a ripped juicehead (naturally, mind you) - I can take every anabolic under the sun, and maybe come close to his genetic potential. Unreal. Next.
 
fueledpassion

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Others has expounded on this idea throughly already but I’ll say this truth:

The most unfair thing in the world is to require that athletes only use their natural ability to compete with others who, without merit, were born superior in ability. Fact is, steroids, like guns, are “the great equalizer” and the elite, thoroughbred class doesn’t like it.

We should stop comparing success or failure in life to a game. Life isn’t a game. It’s real - the rewards and the consequences and if someone wants to take calculated risks to enhance their mind and body with high performance androgens, I say you have a right to this.

I perceive someone’s willingness to take the risk with steroids no different than the entrepreneur that takes risks to make lots and lots of money and success.

You don’t get to moan and groan about “cheaters” in life while standing behind the veil of virtue signaling. The truth is people like that can’t see their cowardice and instead want to point fingers at a “system of rigging”... much like half the country is doing right now regarding Trump.

In the end, a natural bodybuilder can call foul play on Phil Heath, but it doesn’t change the reality that Phil Heath is still BETTER than he is in every physical way. So strip him of his trophy, he is still the best bodybuilder in the world, and you are not.

People these days have no sense! From a psychological standpoint, people low in openness are trying to control people high in openness. I’ll see if anyone picks up on that.
 

Lionheart1776

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Others has expounded on this idea throughly already but I’ll say this truth:

The most unfair thing in the world is to require that athletes only use their natural ability to compete with others who, without merit, were born superior in ability. Fact is, steroids, like guns, are “the great equalizer” and the elite, thoroughbred class doesn’t like it.

We should stop comparing success or failure in life to a game. Life isn’t a game. It’s real - the rewards and the consequences and if someone wants to take calculated risks to enhance their mind and body with high performance androgens, I say you have a right to this.

I perceive someone’s willingness to take the risk with steroids no different than the entrepreneur that takes risks to make lots and lots of money and success.

You don’t get to moan and groan about “cheaters” in life while standing behind the veil of virtue signaling. The truth is people like that can’t see their cowardice and instead want to point fingers at a “system of rigging”... much like half the country is doing right now regarding Trump.

In the end, a natural bodybuilder can call foul play on Phil Heath, but it doesn’t change the reality that Phil Heath is still BETTER than he is in every physical way. So strip him of his trophy, he is still the best bodybuilder in the world, and you are not.

People these days have no sense! From a psychological standpoint, people low in openness are trying to control people high in openness. I’ll see if anyone picks up on that.
"People these days have no sense! From a psychological standpoint, people low in openness are trying to control people high in openness. I’ll see if anyone picks up on that" Yes! I am more open then most people I've ever meant (to the point that most people who know me loosely me think and remark to me that I'm some kind of insane person):, and it's brought me great personal rewards so far. That being said there is always a bunch of "closed minded" people who are to scarred to leave their warm little comfort zones. They see you trying and failing, you might be failing at any given point but eventually you grab a little traction and live a life most could only dream of. But those who aren't open have neither the failures nor successes of the open person, so to them life feels stale and boring, they see you living it, trying new things, and having fun, so they try to drag you down into their own cess pool of boring mediocrity and crippling fear of the unknown. Guess I could have summarized my post and misery loves company, lol.
 
YoungThor

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The playing field is even. It’s not cheating if everyone does it, or has access to it, and could do it if they choose. And I’m not competing against anyone, not even myself.
 

MedRat

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"People these days have no sense! From a psychological standpoint, people low in openness are trying to control people high in openness. I’ll see if anyone picks up on that" Yes! I am more open then most people I've ever meant (to the point that most people who know me loosely me think and remark to me that I'm some kind of insane person):, and it's brought me great personal rewards so far. That being said there is always a bunch of "closed minded" people who are to scarred to leave their warm little comfort zones. They see you trying and failing, you might be failing at any given point but eventually you grab a little traction and live a life most could only dream of. But those who aren't open have neither the failures nor successes of the open person, so to them life feels stale and boring, they see you living it, trying new things, and having fun, so they try to drag you down into their own cess pool of boring mediocrity and crippling fear of the unknown. Guess I could have summarized my post and misery loves company, lol.
So much this. Ive tried and failed and tried and failed. Eventually this lead to success and excitement. Its like a war every day though to be outside of the comfort zone. Fighting for everything you want in a world that wants you to have nothing. Failure leads to success.
 

Brienn8989

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If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying.
 

MedRat

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"Use steroids or go home. Enough of crying and whining."
Ban Athletes Who Don't Use Steroids
by Sidney Gendin, Ph.D.


Isn't it time for the brainwashed public to know the truth about steroids? In their ideological zeal to ban "performance enhancing" drugs, national governments and the various local and international sports federations have ignorantly and self-righteously declared that steroid use is cheating, dangerous, and stupid. In fact, in general, it is neither dangerous nor stupid and it is cheating only because it has been capriciously commanded to be so.

In the first place, with respect to the alleged danger, people ought to know that there are dozens of steroids and it would be absurd to imagine that their risks are identical. Moreover, steroids come in two broad classes - the orals and the injectables. It is true that most of the orals have associated hazards but not a single one of them is as hazardous as smoking or drinking. The principle dangers of the injectables result from overdosing and, even so, they are mainly such alarming matters as acne and severe headache. Every legally obtainable prescription drug comes with a warning of dozens of worse side effects.

But what is that to you and me? Why should we legislate what risks people should run unless they can interfere with the rest of us? In our democratic, capitalist society many persons risk their last few dollars to start up businesses which will probably fail. We do not stop them. If and when they become multimillionaires we congratulate them. We don't permit people to drive without seatbelts because their accidents drive up insurance rates for the rest of us but we let people engage in the far riskier business of climbing mountains since the danger is mainly self-regarding. So enough virtue-parading preaching.

As for the so-called cheating, who really are the cheaters? The average steroid user spends about $100-150 per month while the supplement industries grow rich on suckering in the hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of foolish people spending up to $1000 per month on a variety of mumbo jumbo: androstenedione, 4-androstenedione, 19-androstenedione, androstenediol and the several 4, 5, 17, and 19 varieties of androstenediol, tribulus terrestris, enzymatic conversion accelerators, growth hormone stimulators, hormone-releasing peptides, testosterone "boosters", dozens of magical herbs and a ridiculous number of "non drugs" with unpronouncable names so they are always abbreviated such as HMB and DHEA. On top of all this, these folks who tend to be more affluent than steroid users, are pumping protein powders into their milk - $9 per day - and gobbling down protein candy bars - up to $3 each - while saving a bit of energy for screaming "Foul! Cheater!" at the poor steroid user. They are told by the manufacturers and distributors of these outlandish products that they look like steroids, feel like steroids and work like steroids. So? Why not ban them like steroids?

But I say ban them and only them. For one thing, they don't work as well as steroids. More importantly, what care I as a fan that someone sets a remarkable record because he used steroids? I pay money to see sporting events and I am entitled to an athlete's very best. Isaac Stern can afford a violin that few violinists and no high school orchestra player can afford. Is he taking unfair advantage of them? If I pay $60 to hear Stern and learn his tone was not up to par because he was too lazy to bring his own violin and borrowed a $50 one from a high school kid, I justifiably want my money back. What care I that he usually plays upon a $200,000 instrument? I am not bothered by this; I want his very best. Likewise, I want the very best an athlete can give me. I don't want to watch athletes who could have done better if only they had used steroids. Talk of steroid performance as unnatural is as ridiculous as complaining about artificial hearts. As for me I plan to have a T-shirt made for me that will read on its front: "Use steroids or go home. Enough of crying and whining."
Excellent post, very well said! I have an extreme dislike for supplement companies. I have a vast repository of medical knowledge. I don't use it to rip people off with some trash supplement. Ive called out several supplement companies on their B.S. in public. Do you know what they say? They say nothing at all. If they act its to delete my comment or block me from commenting further. I cant tell you how much I loathe these people.

I have heard people say steroids are cheating my entire life. Its jealousy plain and simple. These are the people who are afraid to squat and spend an hour every fee days doing 40lb leg extensions. Getting angry that they arent growing after "extreme effort" in the gym.
 
Matthersby

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Picture 2 fast and furious nerds with the same 2008 Honda Civics...

1 spends his entire day practicing his turns and speed shifting while putting only the finest gas and motor oil in his ridiculous little car.

The other just simply saves up and buys a nos system and custom exhaust. Maximizing his practice driving by getting advice from professional drivers and spending maybe an hour putting his new knowledge to use.

Who is going to win their silly little drag race? And did the winner cheat?
No. One maximized his potential and the other spent 6 hours a day doing dumbbell kickbacks.
 
RickyBlobby

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Is it cheating when I eat more protein than someone else, and grow more? Is it cheating, when I figure out or learn a new technique or training system that my body responds to much faster than someone else? Gear/PH's are an advantage like anything else you do to improve yourself. Cheating is surgery and synthol. No work or thought involved.
This
 

Brienn8989

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If you’re taking a trip across the country, you can drive which takes way longer but is beautiful or you can take a plane and get there in a few hours... I’m taking that flight.
 

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