New to HCG.. what you guys think?

LakeMountD

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Okay just got an amp of organon HCG. Unfortunately (a bunch of problems) I got it very late and start pct in 13 days so i ws going to take 500 iu twice per week until then, then I was going to stop the use the day I start PCT.

I also have another question. How in gods name does this glass top vial system work haha. I feel like an idiot, but I have never used these glass tops before.
 
DAdams91982

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Okay just got an amp of organon HCG. Unfortunately (a bunch of problems) I got it very late and start pct in 13 days so i ws going to take 500 iu twice per week until then, then I was going to stop the use the day I start PCT.

I also have another question. How in gods name does this glass top vial system work haha. I feel like an idiot, but I have never used these glass tops before.
Score neck with butter knife, and break off with pen cap... or a amp opener from universal kits... but since your in a crunch... used the pen cap method.

Adams
 
LakeMountD

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Score neck with butter knife, and break off with pen cap... or a amp opener from universal kits... but since your in a crunch... used the pen cap method.

Adams
Yeah figured so, that sucks though cause then I have to be extra careful not to knock it over in fridge lol.

What about dosages.
 
DAdams91982

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Yeah figured so, that sucks though cause then I have to be extra careful not to knock it over in fridge lol.

What about dosages.
How long was your cycle.. and of what?

Adams
 
LakeMountD

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I am pretty suppressed, test prop/var/sd 12 weeks (obvoiusly the var and sd weren't the entire 12 weeks)
 

Mr.50

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Lake,

At this point I would just not use the HCG UNTIL PCT. I know that may sound unusual compared to most but here is how I would run it:

Wait until the last day of your cycle if oral or until you have calculated that the longest ester is out of your system (or almost out, so as not to drop test levels too low, if you are having trouble calculating then try to get some Methoxy TST or other libido/mood supporting oral for a few days right at the end until you are sure the ester is out of your system). Then, at that point take 1000ius of the HCG a day for 10 days (if you have a 5000iu amp then just take 500ius for 10 days) right after the last day of the cycle. Then the day after the last day of HCG kick in Clomid at 300mgs for the first day, and 100 per day for 2 weeks there after, and 50 per day for 3 weeks. I have done this in the past with great success. Also use Fenugreek if you can.

Mr.50
 
DAdams91982

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Me... I would have some Anti E's on hand... and go 1000ius for the first two doses.. then down to 500ius like you planned.... since you have been suppressed so long.

Adams
 
DAdams91982

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Lake,

At this point I would just not use the HCG UNTIL PCT. I know that may sound unusual compared to most but here is how I would run it:

Wait until the last day of your cycle if oral or until you have calculated that the longest ester is out of your system (or almost out, so as not to drop test levels too low, if you are having trouble calculating then try to get some Methoxy TST or other libido/mood supporting oral for a few days right at the end until you are sure the ester is out of your system). Then, at that point take 1000ius of the HCG a day for 10 days (if you have a 5000iu amp then just take 500ius for 10 days) right after the last day of the cycle. Then the day after the last day of HCG kick in Clomid at 300mgs for the first day, and 100 per day for 2 weeks there after, and 50 per day for 3 weeks. I have done this in the past with great success. Also use Fenugreek if you can.

Mr.50
Good advice... though I would start a little earlier than PCT though.. to get a head start on plumping the boys back up.

Adams
 

Siznoyton

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Lake, are you talking about how you mix and store the HCG in the fridge--in other words, in a vial with a broken top or what have you?
 
LakeMountD

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Lake, are you talking about how you mix and store the HCG in the fridge--in other words, in a vial with a broken top or what have you?
Naw I was just asking the best way to break the glass tops. But I got it now ;).


Mr. 50 that is fine but here is my planned PCT, I don't want to interfere too much with it (meaning using Clomid, etc.):


Days 1-5
Toremifene 100mg
Lean Extreme 5 caps daily, 1 w/ each meal
Anagen (testing this for Scivation) 4 caps daily split 2/2
Tribulus/Fengreek/Maca (3 caps total/daily/chosen at random)
DHEA 200mg daily (split morning/afternoon)

Days 6-7
Toremifene 80mg (did this so I could have enough for the 4th week at 30mg)
Lean Extreme 5 caps daily, 1 w/ each meal
Anagen 4 caps daily split 2/2
Tribulus/Fengreek/Maca (3 caps total/daily/chosen at random)
DHEA 200mg daily (split morning/afternoon)


Days 8-14
Toremifene 70mg
Lean Extreme 4 caps daily, w/ meals
Anagen 4 caps daily split 2/2
Tribulus/Fengreek/Maca (4 caps total/daily/chosen at random)
DHEA 150 mg daily (split morning/afternoon)
Rebound XT- 2 caps daily half through week then 1 cap daily the rest


Days 15-21
Toremifene 60mg
Lean Extreme 3 caps daily, w/ meals
Anagen 4 caps daily split 2/2
Tribulus/Fengreek/Maca (6 caps total/daily/chosen at random)
DHEA 100 mg daily (split morning/afternoon)


Days 22-35

Toremifene 30mg
Lean Extreme 2 caps daily, w/ meals
Anagen 4 caps daily split 2/2
Tribulus/Fengreek/Maca (8 caps total/daily/chosen at random)
DHEA 50 mg daily (split morning/afternoon)
Rebound XT 2 caps daily half the week then 1 cap daily the rest


Suppor Supps

Fish Oil caps 3 morning/3 PM/3 bed
Policosonol 20mg/daily
Niacin (Flush Free) 1000mg/daily
Garlic 2 softgels/daily (140mg total)
NAC 1200mg/daily
Milk Thistle 900mg/daily
Hawthorne Berry 1100mg daily
Magnesium 250mg before bed
Zinc 25mg before bed
 

Mr.50

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Ah, looks very good and comprehensive. I was not sure if you had the toremifene yet or if you were using the old Clomid standby. So I still think the protocol looks good just use the HCG at 500ius or 100ius per day (depending on availability) for 10 days right at the end of the cycle when you are sure any long esters and other compounds are out of the system (or if you like it can be in the last few days as they are getting out of your system) then proceed into your PCT as planned. I guess the point is to try to get the testes bcak up to size by direct stimulation by HCG before starting to use the LH stimulating compound (Clomid or Tor) rather then using it at the same time as the Clomid or Tor.

Also the idea of using the HCG throughout the cycle to keep size up is a good idea, but in this case you have already been surpressed a while and might have lost some testicular volume by now. While it would be nice to kick in the HCG now and just continue it far a week or so after the cycle is over but before the rest of the PCT, it appears that you do not have enough HCG for that (plus you may desensitize the Lydig cells if you use the HCG for to long straight through). So with a limited amount of HCG its most valuable use would be after all AAS/PH/PS are out of your system to bring testes back to full volume and then to restimulate LH production.

Mr.50
 
LakeMountD

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Ah, looks very good and comprehensive. I was not sure if you had the toremifene yet or if you were using the old Clomid standby. So I still think the protocol looks good just use the HCG at 500ius or 100ius per day (depending on availability) for 10 days right at the end of the cycle when you are sure any long esters and other compounds are out of the system (or if you like it can be in the last few days as they are getting out of your system) then proceed into your PCT as planned. I guess the point is to try to get the testes bcak up to size by direct stimulation by HCG before starting to use the LH stimulating compound (Clomid or Tor) rather then using it at the same time as the Clomid or Tor.

Also the idea of using the HCG throughout the cycle to keep size up is a good idea, but in this case you have already been surpressed a while and might have lost some testicular volume by now. While it would be nice to kick in the HCG now and just continue it far a week or so after the cycle is over but before the rest of the PCT, it appears that you do not have enough HCG for that (plus you may desensitize the Lydig cells if you use the HCG for to long straight through). So with a limited amount of HCG its most valuable use would be after all AAS/PH/PS are out of your system to bring testes back to full volume and then to restimulate LH production.

Mr.50
Appreciate the detailed response bro. I am definitely new to the HCG thing since I have never run a cycle past 8 weeks before. I completely understand the compound but science just doesn't beat good ol' experience haha.

So say I end the test prop on a Friday, you are telling me to start the HCG on say Sunday, start with 500IU's for 7 days THEN start PCT? Or do I run the HCG with the PCT? I know HCG is suppressive overall, so why would it be benefical to take it after the compounds are out of the system but before the PCT? Again thanks for the details (sent ya some rep :))
 

Mr.50

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Ues good questions for sure. As you stated you could take the prop on Friday and then probably kick in the HCG for the first day on Sunday (Monday the latest). This assumes that all longer acting esters are already out of your system.

You are correct that HCG is suppressive (especially if used for too long continuously). But it is mainly suppressive to LH release (which is the ultimate goal of PCT but not the initial goal) not to testosterone production. This is of course because it acts as an LH analog and thus directly stimulates leydig cell production of testosterone as well as leydig cell hypertrophy (as in gonadoTROPIN). Of course if you use it for too long continuously you can suppress testosterone because the large increase in test production caused by HCG can lead to greater aromatisation and thus estrogen as well as desensitising the leydig cells to LH (or analogs of LH). So yes, the answer is that during the HCG period your testes will be producing test but your pituitary will not be producing LH.
Then when you stop the HCG and kick in the TOR, you are going to be stimulating natural production of LH. BUT you don't want to do this when the size and capacity of the testes is still suppressed (such as with no prior HCG use) because it has been shown in prior research (posted by Dr.D somewhere around here) that when Clomid (and probably Tor) is administered LH rises rather quickly but Testosterone production does not come back to normal as quickly. So there is a time lag. That is because when just and LH stimulator is used without HCG it is like pressing the gas pedal in a car that is in 5th gear at 1000 RPMS. The fule is used but the car accellerates really slowly at first. (Sorry not a great analogy).

So the importance of the HCG before the LH stimulator is to get the structures (the testes) to grow back to normal size so that when LH production is back to normal the testes can fully respond to the LH stimulus.

Mr.50

Appreciate the detailed response bro. I am definitely new to the HCG thing since I have never run a cycle past 8 weeks before. I completely understand the compound but science just doesn't beat good ol' experience haha.

So say I end the test prop on a Friday, you are telling me to start the HCG on say Sunday, start with 500IU's for 7 days THEN start PCT? Or do I run the HCG with the PCT? I know HCG is suppressive overall, so why would it be benefical to take it after the compounds are out of the system but before the PCT? Again thanks for the details (sent ya some rep :))
 
Ubiquitous

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I would use the HCG on the next cycle. Store the vial of powder in a nice cool, dark place and wait. Start the HCG at 250iu 2x a week, from close to the start (3 weeks is generally when I notice decrease in size) until the end of your cycle. The dose is low enough not to desensitize your Leydig cells.

I prefer to use 2000iu amps, as the solution is used up in 4 weeks.. I think the Organon Pregnyl insert said don't store once mixed for longer than 60, or 90 days.. I forget... (I however did.. for 10 weeks :blink:) Now I just don't take the chance and get the chinese 2000iu vials.

Don't use HCG during PCT, or at high doses. Just my opinion, and others share it. ;)

HCG is never needed, but it has it's benefits, and I run it on cycles longer than 10 weeks.
 
LakeMountD

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I would use the HCG on the next cycle. Store the vial of powder in a nice cool, dark place and wait. Start the HCG at 250iu 2x a week, from close to the start (3 weeks is generally when I notice decrease in size) until the end of your cycle. The dose is low enough not to desensitize your Leydig cells.

I prefer to use 2000iu amps, as the solution is used up in 4 weeks.. I think the Organon Pregnyl insert said don't store once mixed for longer than 60, or 90 days.. I forget... (I however did.. for 10 weeks :blink:) Now I just don't take the chance and get the chinese 2000iu vials.

Don't use HCG during PCT, or at high doses. Just my opinion, and others share it. ;)

HCG is never needed, but it has it's benefits, and I run it on cycles longer than 10 weeks.

Okay well now im friggin confused. :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink:
 
DAdams91982

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Okay well now im friggin confused. :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink:
You are definately going to get confilicting opinions here... If someone like Dr.D chimes in.. I would take his advice over all.

Adams
 

Mr.50

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It is a tough call Lake. Everybody has their own protocol on this.

I certainly agree that high doses of HCG are not good but as far as the endocrimologist I have spoken to most hold the viet that what is ment here is bolus doses at the same time like 2000ius or 4000ius all at once like some of the older protocols called for.

I actually have used my above protocol numerous times with great success. It is true that for a lot of guys HCG is not necessary but I have always taken the view that it sure can't hurt if used correctly.

With that said it may be that you should consult Dr.D. on this in a pm and see if he would be willing to review this thread and give you his thoughts. I highly reccomend his feedback. :thumbsup:

Okay well now im friggin confused. :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink:
 
DAdams91982

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Look.. HCG is cheap.. and it DEFINATELY cant hurt starting now!!!

Adams
 

SecretOfSteel

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I would probably blast myself with the HCG in the last week, and keep it up until I was out - 1000mg EOD or so starting with the last inject

I know some guys like to run HCG the whole cycle or start halfway through with a low dose twice a week, just to keep the boys awake, but in my experience PCT works fine if you just blast the boys back to life near the end and keep your anti-estrogens in check.
 

meowmeow

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...
Start the HCG at 250iu 2x a week, from close to the start (3 weeks is generally when I notice decrease in size) until the end of your cycle. The dose is low enough not to desensitize your Leydig cells.

...
Very good advice.
 

jrkarp

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I never go above 500iu, usually use 250.

A little goes a long way. The old school way was a couple thousand iu per injection, but that is overkill and potentially harmful
 

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