Betaine and Prostanazol
- 02-15-2006, 10:43 AM
Betaine and Prostanazol
Maybe I'm off my rocker... or maybe it's the fact that I'm sitting in a virtually meaningless deposition... BUT..
If I'm not mistaken.. isnt' Betaine a "methyl donor" so to speak, as it was used in the original halodrol formula. If so, can betaine be used with prostanazol to perhaps donate a methyl to the prostan?
I'm no chemist.. so please forgive me! But I just thought it was an interesting questions for someone who does not understand much about the chemistry aspects....
- 02-15-2006, 09:45 PM
This is an interesting question Pax, Id love to see more science-oriented discussion in the Anaboics forum. Im not sure about the answer though! I believe you can tack a CH3 group onto most anything as long as certain conditions are met, no idea how you would do this with betaine though. perhaps Dr.D can chime in...
- 02-16-2006, 06:59 AM
I'm with you Big V. Although for me, I'm chock full of questions, but don't understand enough of the chemistry aspects to figure it out for myself. Paging Dr. D.....
02-16-2006, 07:24 AM
02-16-2006, 02:38 PM
02-16-2006, 05:10 PM
No. A proton donor will NOT add a methyl group in your body.
02-16-2006, 05:11 PM
You'd have to extract the Prostan and react with methyl lithium (a Grignard reagent) along with a catalyst. I forget what type of catalyst.
So, forget thinking you can methylate in your body.
02-16-2006, 05:27 PM
JMH is correct. A biological methyl donor will not transform Prostan into Winni in the body.
02-16-2006, 05:51 PM
Do I get reps from that? I'm only a menial chemical engineer (and considered "dirty" by those high and mighty pompous chemists).
02-16-2006, 06:44 PM
You and BV both get reps!
02-16-2006, 07:34 PM
D - what is the type of catalyst used for that reaction? It's not coming to me.
02-16-2006, 10:26 PM
Wow.. thanks guys. As you can tell, I'm definitely not a chemist.. I'm an attorney... Thanks for clearing that all up. I realized chemistry was complicate, but just figured that somehow, "magically, if you will since I can't explain it" it would somehow work. But if there is a reaction to be made with catalyst. this may still make a good thread for the homebrew section for those young eager chemists to carry out in their research labs.
02-16-2006, 11:20 PM
Well, just off the top of my head, I'd say convert the parent alcohol to the 17-ketone and then choose the best Grignard reagent. MeMgBr or MeMgI are strongly basic, carbon nucleophiles that attach directly to the carbonyl carbon. Once you have favorable equilibria, just quench with H2O. Benzene or Et2O as a solvent perhaps.Originally Posted by jmh80
Don't quote me though! I'm getting too old to remember this stuff of hand. If I was going to try it myself or suggest this route, I'd need to really study it first to be sure these are the most efficient reagents.
02-16-2006, 11:23 PM
I can tell from your sig.Originally Posted by Pax
02-17-2006, 09:04 AM
Thanks for chiming in on this thread Dr. D, and helping to keep me humble by showing me that there are so many other people out there with a level of scientific intellect that dwarfs any such intellect on my part!!!!
02-17-2006, 09:36 AM
Sure thing PAX, I'll advise as best I can anytime I can be of assistance. Before you are so easily impressed though, remember "scientific intellect" is very dry and mechanical. Anyone can memorize predictable chemical interactions. It probably takes far more intellect to be a lawyer. Honestly, I am constantly humbled by you guys. I'm not even a pure chemist myself, it was just my minor. I'm just a nuclear physics major with a long personal interest in medicinal and pharmaceutical chemistry!Originally Posted by Pax
02-17-2006, 10:00 AM
Lol... "just" hahaha. Man, that's awesome. I love physics, but I don't have near the "smarts" to have been a nuclear physica major. Hell, I'm a lawyer and I can't even do long division. That's sad!!Originally Posted by DR.D
I'm just glad there are people like you in the world, who have an intellect to grasp the concepts, because I certainly don't!
And you know, as a lawyer, we do have a knack for learning enough very quickly, about virtually anything, to at least give you a good cross-examination. But... 99% of the time, it's because our own expert told us what to ask, or because we know just enough to bull****. so there's nothing really mystical about it
I think, in fact, attorneys are much like psychiatrists. We just ask questions, and listen to what the other person volunteers Or maybe we're more like old wives.... we remember everything that you say and it will be used against you
02-17-2006, 06:37 PM
I make plastics and some of your gasoline (the higher octane portion).
And all you guys do is piss and moan and bitch like girls about "windfall profits".
I swear - a bro just can't get any respect!
02-17-2006, 11:55 PM
Lol.. I know all about raffinate splitting and cat crackers. My firm represents a major oil company. In fact, I work on cases involving former contractors who allege that their leukemia or diseases of the blood-forming organs, were caused by their exposure to benzene.Originally Posted by jmh80
So I'll give mad props to you for making plastics and high octane gasoline. I assume you work with ethylbenzene and use catalyst and distillers to create styrene.
Props to you. I know you work hard if you are in the Petrochemical industry. much respect to you all.
02-18-2006, 12:13 AM
Nope - you are speaking more on the refinery side.
I work with the steam crackers on the chemicals side of a petro complex - the heart of our complex.
I am assigned to our heavier products (not ethylene and propylene).
I help make more product for cheaper.
My products go into specialtly polymers that we make and some specialty/some commodity plastics that outside companies make.
We basically don't make any money. We help the refinery (and let them make the money) and help our polymers folks by giving them free feed (in essence).
I send some stuff to the motor gasoline pool too.
02-18-2006, 12:58 PM
Then I can vouch for you! You are probably underpaid and not really appreciated. I'm in the same boat. I work in QC. QC is only seen as the bad guy of the lab that seeks to employ needless protocols to ruin profits and make the regulation and criteria on quality unnecessarily difficult. The Production lab is better paid (but get worked like dogs) and the R&D are the real fat cats that don't really do squat but are perceived to make the company all it's money by the guys who write the checks. They get whatever they need with the least amount of work expected.Originally Posted by jmh80
02-18-2006, 01:11 PM
Yeah, R&D gets alot of the glory.
But, if I were examine our company as a whole - yes, our division is extrodinarily underappreciated.
Upstream (the folks that get the oil and gas out of the ground) are the supastars.
Refineries are close behind.
But, without a steam cracker, the refinery would require quite a bit more inveestment to deal with all the crap (sulfur laden) that we crack.
I don't have too many problems with the menial lab that does GC testing for my products.
Since my plant is majority liquid (with some vapor/gas), we employ quite a bit of online GC's.
Our lab is a much bigger part of the plastics daily life.
I don't talk QC because we don't employ Six Sigma technologies here.
02-18-2006, 01:23 PM
Man, I hate GC testing of distillates. Of course, we have old HP's and your company probably at least uses the newest, coolest on-line machines. Constant FID issues and tanks of hydrogen and carrier gases, it's a PAIN IN THE BUTT. What do you do with all the sulfur slag and cracking crap you generate? It's it fairly radioactive once you consolidate it?
02-18-2006, 02:27 PM
Well, I don't know about coolest. There is always the drive to cut costs. Sometimes they do allow for capital investment. We just bought a new improved GC to test C4's.
I don't know about fairly, but there is some radiation that is present in crude oil.
The crap is called tar. Polymerized styrene, butadiene (really any diolefins). They do some kind of clean up and I think it goes into asphault or something.
We have some sulfur removal technology - mainly caustic scrubbing before any palladium catalyst (for hydrogenation of various C2/C3/C4 isomers) and also a COS chemi-sorption bed.
02-18-2006, 02:31 PM
You guys are making me jealous with all your chemistry talk!! Damnit now I have to go finish reading my 'Chemistry for Dummies' book. (<-I'm not kidding I really do own that book)
02-18-2006, 02:42 PM
I need to get a copy of that to give to my operators (local guys with an HS degree that work the shifts out in the plant).
I tried to explain to them what a mole is.
Let me tell ya - that went over like a fart in a dive helmet.
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