Doctors and AAS
- 02-12-2006, 08:02 PM
Doctors and AAS
Can someone explain to me why licensed medical doctors seem to be the WORST abusers of AAS? Consider the following:
1) Doctors sometimes prescribe AAS for extended periods of time (years)
2) Doctors don't provide any sort of liver or kidney protection along with the AAS
3) Doctors never seem to use PCT after AAS
My mother-in-law has been on Prednisone (among others) for over 3 years straight. Every time the doctors try to take her off she gets weak - duh - and they put her back on. NO liver protectants; NO PCT.
Makes me wonder what the real story on AAS safety is -- either the Doctors don't know what they're doing or the public has been pumped full of BS.
- 02-12-2006, 08:07 PM
Do a little more reading and you will find that Prednisone is not an AAS, it is a Glucocorticoid.Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC
02-12-2006, 08:07 PM
It is likely there was bloodwork done before hand to determine healthy liver funtion. Hepatotoxicity is very over blown and is likely being monitored.
Females don't need PCT.
EDIT: and what jonny said
02-12-2006, 08:20 PM
If you take a look at rx dosing of things like anadrol, its 1mg/kg of bodyweight for 3-6 months MINIMUM time! haha.
02-12-2006, 10:53 PM
I think he has a good point, although his example is wrong. Doctors often prescribe nolva and AAS for extended periods. They also seem to favor HRT over boosting test naturally, just from what i've read.
02-13-2006, 09:14 AM
Originally Posted by B5150
Thanks Jonny for the correction -- however, Prednisone is still a SYNTHETIC HORMONE intended to augment (or replace) the body's natural production of cortisone. We all know what happens when you administer external sources of hormones for extended periods of time.
Which is why I brought up PCT. I'm disappointed in your reply, 5150, that "females don't need PCT". The purpose of PCT is to restore the natural homone production and balance in the body (not JUST testosterone). Why wouldn't females need some sort of PCT after hormone therapy?
Lastly, I'm sure her liver was NOT in good shape when they started hormones -- she had just completed 6 weeks of daily chemotherapy.
02-13-2006, 09:42 AM
You said "Doctors never seem to use PCT after AAS" and my reply was regarding the restoration of HPTA.Originally Posted by Jeff Rippe
You negelected to mention chemo, otherwise I would have recognized a possible liver issue.
02-13-2006, 11:09 AM
Jeff, real sorry to be a disappointment at such an early stage in our relationship. I have been researching a bit (limited, I'm at work) on AAS PCT for females. It was my understanding (this is not fact) that females do not do a traditional PCT like men do. I'll keep at it.Originally Posted by Jeff Rippe
But in the meantime, please do some research yourself and post an IDEAL PCT for females. Please don't disappoint us. The board can only handle so much disappointment in one day.
02-13-2006, 11:50 AM
Originally Posted by B5150
5150 -- I'm sorry, I did not mean to offend you.
The reason I said I was "disappointed" in your reply is because of your status on this forum. Someone reading your post may take what you said as fact. When we purposely throw the body out of normal balance with ANY supplemental hormones I would think anyone, male or female, would have some kind of PCT requirement. I am not refering strickly to testosterone here; I'm thinking "normal balance".
Regarding my original question, I think I need to start over due to my bad example.
My question is this:
Doctors don't seem to address liver protection with AAS.
Doctors don't seem to discuss or administer PCT following AAS
Doctors administer AAS for long periods of time
All of these things seem to violate "safe AAS". Why?
02-13-2006, 12:10 PM
No problem. I understand your point...but.Originally Posted by Jeff Rippe
One that moderates, as:
One that arbitrates or mediates.
One who presides over a meeting, forum, or debate.
I did not see expert or omnipotent.
As I said I am researching and you should as well...and post what you find.
02-13-2006, 12:25 PM
I'm a 3rd year medical student and see patients regularly in clinic who are prescribed AAS. BUT it is for Hormone Replacement Therapy in which their normal levels are low. They are just giving them amounts of hormone to bring it back up to normal levels, not elevate them or boost them. Since they are only going up to normal levels, you wouldn't need a pct. PCT for what? They produce little or no test anyways due to hypogonadism or just old age. Whatever the reason, they already have low levels hence hormone REPLACEMENT therapy. It is a replacement (for long times). Didn't mean to offend anybody, just telling what I see in clinic.
As for liver toxicity issues, they are issuing huge ass amounts, just the minimum to be within normal limits.
02-13-2006, 04:34 PM
That is why most MD's will taper up the dose and then taper down the dose before d/c.Originally Posted by Jeff Rippe
How are her blood glucose levels?
Typically, corticosteroids are not detrimental to liver function. They may screw around with thyroid and effect electrolyte balance. Elevated Blood glucose levels is what I typically see.
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC
02-13-2006, 05:52 PM
02-13-2006, 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by jonny21
Jonny21 -- You nailed it! She was later diagnosed as "Diabetic" due to high blood glucose levels and put on another bunch of meds!
I get very frustrated thinking the whole mess is a medically-inflicted chain of events. Thus my original question.
By the way, my Doc gave me Prednisone last summer as a last resort when I had declining pneumonia. He gave me a 5 day tapered schedule -- 5 tabs on day 1 down to 1 tab on day 5. He said it was hard on the liver thus the short cycle. Maybe it was a much higher dose, I don't know.
02-13-2006, 08:46 PM
02-13-2006, 10:52 PM
All very true, however, other AAS are issued for other reason. Such as the one I mentioned earlier, Anadrol (Oxymethelone). And, the recommended clinical dose is 1-5mg/kg for 3-6months minimum trial periods. For me, that would be from 100-500mg of Anadrol daily! Wow, that'll make ya grow! And then, on top of that, you hear constant badgering about how 17aa steroids (to varying degrees) will absolutely trash your liver enzymes, and even (in the ccase of anadrol ONLY) can cause liver tumors, therefore should only be run for 4 weeks.Originally Posted by cgcrz8
Now, given the clinical dose of anadrol ranges from equal to, to greater than most BBers dosage, and the minimum treatment time is 3-6 months (3-6 times longer than the average self-administration time period), the relatively low occurence of irreversible liver damage in clinically documented situations would lead me to believe that the issue is entirely blown out of proportion. Therefore, the 'abuser' definition, as defined by many board members, is weak at best.
This is the type of example I believe the thread starter meant to put forth--although, I'd hardly call MD's AAS abusers, haha.
02-14-2006, 04:19 PM
Females do not need PCT therapy because they do not produce testosterone naturally. When the exogenous test is removed, then they will return to normal. If they experience side effects, they are usually permanent.
02-14-2006, 08:02 PM
The only thing women could even use for PCT would be HCG. Everything else (serms/ai's) would further inhibit their estrogen production, since they(nolva & clomid) are synthetic estrogens.
02-14-2006, 10:53 PM
OK this is a weird and bizarre question do doctors know what they are doing???? Ok first off scientifically yes they do I have a hard time believing that the patient is taking pred without blood work, if this is the case second opinion needed but what really worries me is that the patient was on chemo for six months and no blood work just about every oncologist knows better than that so if it is truly so I would say her doctor is crazy. As far as PCT goes no women do not needed this the reasons are simple and although women DO produce test they are not at any risk after a cycle or long cycle of hormones. This would be quite odd to see a doctor advise the therapy anyway. Now as far as usage in males doctors that I know typically will not prescribe it because it is over their knowledge level without referring the patient to an endo. Not to say they wont but truth be told they typically are not up to par so to speak on test therapy. So to answer the question no not all docs know the right way to do stuff but in today’s med with malpractice and everything else they typically will refer a patient out. Prednisone will not cause an imbalance in hormones it is the chemical make up; it is a nasty steroid non AAS but still nasty. It has bad enough sides, but all of us understand that the sides are typically better than not taking them at all. If there were good enough cortisol boosters out there then it would be obsolete. I hope this helps your question, or statement.
02-15-2006, 12:10 AM
To answer the original question- One aspect is alot of times aas are prescribed to people who are already ****ed, so longterm health takes a backseat. In some cases the people aren't going to live long enough to die from liver disease or other sides.
02-15-2006, 02:26 PM
Hey SERENGO, women do produce testosterone naturally.
Approximately 30 percent of a woman’s testosterone is produced in the ovaries; the other 70 percent is derived from the transformation of adrenal androgen precursors such as DHEA and androstenedione, both of which decline inexorably with age. So, as a woman ages, she will have a decline in her testosterone level.
02-16-2006, 11:20 AM
I was wrong on that one, I read it somewhere and was citing from memory, but as I learned from this post and just researched some more info, bad source. Just goes to show me, research more... Thanks for setting it straight.Originally Posted by bigdave2875
I recently heard a news story about a whole new spectrum of drugs to be introduced for women to cope with stress and boost sex drive. They are combinations of hormones. Women can use hormones for sex drive, birth control, acne, reduced menstration, weight control and a host of other things, yet when men want to use them for "lifestyle" reasons they aren't called hormones, they are evil steroids!
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