- 01-21-2006, 07:18 PM
his thread is being written solely only to make people understand about DNP. It comes as a result of my understanding and research of this product. This thread by no means even comes close to how this compound should be used. I do not promote the use this product. I may have made mistakes in writing this thread, if so please feel free to correct me and educate me better.
So is there an age limit to use DNP.
Yes there is. Anyone under 21 with less that 4 years of intense weight training and supplementation experience should NOT do DNP. There are a number of alternatives to DNP, that are readily available in the market today. Please start with them before even considering to READ this thread.
I've tried everything,nothing worked, now I have to try DNP.
No! This qualifies as the first point for some one who should NOT use DNP. DNP is not for people who do not know how to lose weight with diet and cardio. DNP is not for people who have not tried the EC stack. DNP is not for morbidly obese people. DNP is not for people who want to lose a dress size or fit into new clothes.
Ok what exactly is so special about DNP?
2,4-dinitrophenol (DNP), an uncoupler of oxidative phosphorylation is coincident with an increase in glycolytic activity.
Everyone is talking about it as an uncoupler?
Uncouplers are a wide range of chemically unrelated compounds that inhibit mitochondrial ATP synthesis but are often observed to stimulate the rate of electron transport.
DNP is an uncoupler, and has the ability to separate the flow of electrons and the pumping of hydrogen ions for ATP synthesis. The mechanism of action of DNP is believed to inhibit the formation of ATP by uncoupling oxidative phosphorylation.
Ok now in english please....
The energy that is stored in the molecules are transferred to the ATP molecule, but DNP disrupts this process. Instead of making ATP from macromolecules in the presence of DNP, the potential energy is just turned into heat. This is very significant because ATP levels in the body will quickly diminish and cells want to replenish that storage by breaking down more fats, carbs.
I dont understand, why does it need carbs to work then?
When fatty acids are broken down they need to be fed into an energy cycle for a complete break down so that more can be broken down later. The beginning of this cycle is called the citric acid cycle. Fats enter the citric acid cycle as a 2-carbon molecule called acetate and to start off this cycle it needs to bind to another 2-carbon molecule called oxaloacetate.
The cycle cannot go on without oxaloacetate. With little oxaloacetate this cycle is slowed down, thus fat burning is slowed down.
Primary source for oxaloacetate is PYRUVATE.
This is not to say the more carbs we eat the more pyruvate we can generate, therefore the more fat is burned. We only need adequate levels of pyruvate to supply the citric acid cycle of the necessary starting material for fat to enter, and then it will eventually proceed to be completely oxidized in the electron transport chain.
So what do I need for my cycle?
alpha lipoic acid
Thats a lot of stuff , do I really need this much?
Here is why you need them
ALA is a sulfur bearing compound with antioxidant properties. It plays a role in energy metabolism. ALA amplifies the ability of other antioxidants to combat free redicals and enhance recovery. Also may enhance insulin sensitivity, improving the body's ability to add lean mass and reduce fat.
Potassium Gluconoate Keeps strength up and battle muscle cramps!
Morin, Luteolin, Quercetin, Kaempferol and Reservatol are especially good at supressing Sugars from being metabolized (not to mention their life-extentioning abilities and positive effects on Lipid Levels and Cardiac Function).
Fisetin, Myrecetin, Baicalein, Galangin however are far less effective
Grapeseedextract inhibits fatcells from growing instead of inhibiting sugars being metabolized like the other phytochemicals
Which frees a lot of fatty acids from stubborn fat, imitates caloric restriction and actually kills fatcells to a degree!
Not to mention its sex-boosting properties, its lifespan enhancing ability and the fact that it pumps your muscles full of Anti-oxidants
Selenium is incorporated into proteins to make selenoproteins, which are important antioxidant enzymes. The antioxidant properties of selenoproteins help prevent cellular damage from free radicals. Free radicals are natural by-products of oxygen metabolism that may contribute to the development of chronic diseases such as cancer and heart disease . Other selenoproteins help regulate thyroid function and play a role in the immune system
Melatonin is secreted by the pineal gland in the brain and is important in the regulation of many hormones in the body. Among its key roles, melatonin controls the body's circadian rhythm, an internal 24-hour time-keeping system that plays an important role in when we fall asleep and when we wake up. Darkness stimulates the release of melatonin and light suppresses its activity. Hence its most effective taken before sleep.
Taurine is a conditionally-essential amino acid which is not utilized in protein synthesis, but rather is found free or in simple peptides. Metabolic actions of taurine include: bile acid conjugation, detoxification, membrane stabilization, osmoregulation, and modulation of cellular calcium levels.
Due to its ability to neutralize hypochlorous acid, a potent oxidizing substance, taurine is able to attenuate DNA damage caused by aromatic amine compounds in vitro.
Hence, taurine is an antioxidant that specifically mediates the chloride ion and hypochlorous acid concentration, and protects the body from potentially toxic effects of aldehyde release
Ketotifen or Benadryl
>As Anti-histamine (for Allergies)
>As sleeping Aid (take before bed!)
>Upgrading the Fatcell receptors
>Keeping the ECY effective (during longer runs like 30 days)
Ok I've got my list set up, shall I just start DNP.
NO! to maximise its effect, carb deplete for a week. Then on day 7 load your body with carbs. Makes sense does'nt it, DNP works on carbs, you deplete it for a week and throw in DNP along with carbs, DNP burns all the fat. Carb deplete for 3 days prior to DNP because DNP will take a good 2-3 days to deplete the body's glycogen stores before it can efficiently burn stored fat.
How should my diet look on DNP?
Novice users and first timers should stick to isocaloric diets for week 1 33% pcf and 55C 35P 10F thereon.
So how do I run a cycle.
2 forms of DNP currently on the market, pure crystalline (100% dry) DNP, and powdered DNP (usually 5-10% moisture).
The crystalline version is costlier stronger and more effective, but more caution needs to be used while using it. It acts much faster, and the side effects also subside faster as well.
Recommended doses for dnp 2-6mg/kg-bw per day for crystalline DNP.
The powdered version is a bit weaker as it contains moisture, hence reducing its effectivenss. Powdered versions are cheaper but it works out to effectively the same price for the level of effectiveness.
Recommended doses for 4-10mg/kg-bw for powdered DNP.
As with any new powerful compounds during first time use, this compound should be started at its lowest dose and then worked its way up till an effective dosage is reached.
Can I get a sample first DNP cycle.
For first timers I would not recommend anything more than a 12 day cycle.
Day 1-7 EC (dosages based on weight and bf%)
Day 7-12 DNP 200mg E-75mg C 600mg
Day 13-20 DNP 400mg E-100mg C 800mg
Day 21-24 Continue E/C
Day 15 Start either Keitofen or Benadryl
What are the side effects I can expect with DNP.
Run wisely with all the supplements accompanying the cycle, DNP can be kept side free to a great extent. However, screwing up even a bit can take its toll.
Water retention- this is very closely associated with heat. When the vasodilation occurs due to the rise in body temperature, blood vessels expand, causing an increase in blood volume and subsequent water retention. Also, an increased blood volume leads to decreased pressure, which would lead the body to try to store more sodium and cause even more water retention.
How to combat:
Water retention is nothing to worry about,all the water retention will subside within a 10 days after stopping the DNP dosage.
Lethargy- This is the biggest problem associated with DNP .DNP depletes the body of ATP and without ATP you have no energy. Hence the lethargy.
How to combat:
If you have read this article till now you must have realised that lack of energy is due to lack of pyruviate. Here is a quick recipe that has helped many combat lethargy.
Use is 1 packet of Kool-aid, 1/8 cup sugar, 1 tablespoon glycerol and 32-oz of water. The glycerol makes the kool-aid taste like OJ because there are alcohols and fermentation products in the OJ which the glycerol mimics.
Throw in 3g of pyruviate and you are all set.
Insomnia- Well, on DNP you are going to sweat like a pig, so it is going to be pretty hard to sleep.
How to combat: A fan, sleeping in a cold basement, number of showers.
How to combat:
Melatonin ofcourse, 3g before sleep, make sure you dont get hooked on to it.
Dehydration- a very serious side effect. If hydration levels are not adequate it can predispose the body to severe overheating and possibly death. If you want to live through DNP , its real simple, make sure you drink 2-3 gal of water ed.
You cannot start drinking this much water suddenly, hence I would highly advise you to start increasing your water intake 2 weeks prior to the cycle.
Electrolyte depletion- this is caused by excessive water and salt loss through sweating. Drinking water will replace fluids, but not electrolytes.
How to combat:
V8 juice, the best way to combat elec. depletion.
Nausea- Another effect of dehydration, electrolyte imbalance. You now know how to handle it.
Diarrhea- possibly due to electrolyte imbalance and undissolved DNP that passes onto the large intestine causing osmotic imbalances. If diarrhea becomes uncontrollable, then DNP has to be stopped as diarrhea is the primary cause of mass dehydration.
Yellow vision-. It seems to be most apparent when you look at a white surface and yellow spots will appear on the white that you see. It is a very rare side effect.
How to combat: Throwing in 5-HTP has been succesful in combating this side.
What can my goals be on DNP?
Fat loss, and only fat loss. Do not aim at building muscle or anything else. You do not need to overload your body with proteins. Just make sure your diet is carb rich and concentrated.
What are things not to do on DNP?
Dont be a dick : ie , don't drink, don't try to party with recreational drugs (the primary cause of deaths of DNP). Make sure lead a responsible lifestyle on this drug and not fool around. Do not leave yourself dehydrated for long.
Never start at a high dose, always work your way up from the lowest dosage
Never use a diuretic. Even if the water retention goes over board, never ever use a diuretic. Its not worth the risk.
Don't try to push yourself at the gym, some amount of light cardio is good but if you are not able to, its not worth it. Do not overstrain your CNS!
So, where can I get DNP.
Now that you've asked this question openly on the board, it shows you are not ready to use any scheduled drug, EVER!
I am not a doctor, and neither have I used this product. Whatever I write or post is just a figment of my imagination
- 01-21-2006, 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by krzna
From my Cell biology text.....
DNP destroys the membrane - or at very small concentrations desto___ - the proton gradient change I in the inner part of mitochondrial membrane. Cells continue to oxidize food molecules to feed electrons into the electron-transport chin, but H+ ions pumped across the membrane flow back into the mitochondria in futile cycle. Their energy cannot be tapped to drive ATV synthesis, and hence is released as heat. Patients who have been given small doses of DNP lose weight because their fat reserves are used more rapidly to feed the electron-transport chain, and the whole process simply “wastes” energy.
A similar mechanism of heat production I used by specialized tissue composed of brown fat cells, which is abundant in newborn humans and in hibernating animals. These cells are packed with mitochondria that leak part of their H+ gradient futilely back across the membrane for the sole purpose of warming up the organism. These cells are brown because they are packed with mitochondria, which contain high concentrations of pigmented proteins, such as cytochromes.
The DNP collapses the electrochemical proton gradient completely. H+ ions that are pumped to one side of the membrane flow back freely, and therefore no energy can be stored across the membrane.
An electrochemical gradient is made up of two components: a concentration gradient and an electrical potential. If the membrane is made permeable to K+ with migraine, K+ will be driven into the matrix by the electrical potential of the inner membrane ( negative inside, positive outside). The influx of positively charged K+ will abolish the membrane’s electrical potential . In contrast, the concentration component of the H+ gradient ( the PH difference ) is unaffected by ingrain. Therefore, only part of the driving force that makes it energetically favorable for H+ ions to flow back into the matrix is lost.
01-21-2006, 08:28 PM
08-27-2006, 11:58 PM
This guide is not much better than most out there.
There is no arbitrary age limit and there are no classes of people to which DNP should be restricted. Hundreds of overweight people lost a great deal of weight with just DNP alone in the original studies.
The supplement list is out of hand and full of unnecessary items. You do not need the antioxidants as DNP decreases oxidative stress. Also, most people are not allergic to DNP (80-90%) so there's no reason everyone should take an antihistamine before starting DNP.
You do not need to carb deplete to maximize results. To say "NO!" to doing it any other way is just silly. You'll lose fat just fine without carb depleting.
As usual, the sodium salt of DNP and powdered DNP are completely misrepresented. It's correct to say that the crystalline version is costlier (and much rarer), but it's also weaker and less effective. Funny that powdered DNP is knocked for being slightly moistened when a whole 25% of crystal DNP is not even DNP, but the sodium salt. Powdered DNP is dried out before it is capped. It does not come moistened (which does not work well in a gel cap). 100mg of crystal DNP vs. 75mg powder DNP (stronger) are therapeutically indistinguishable. The reason people have fewer side effects from crystal DNP at a given dose is because they're consuming less actual DNP... of course they'll have fewer side effects.
The 12 day limit for a first cycle is far too arbitrary. It's a sweeping recommendation that takes no consideration of dose or individual response. If someone is fine at 200mg/day or even 400mg/day, there's no reason they need to limit their fat loss to 12 days. DNP can be used effectively for several months at a time.
The water recommendation is equally arbitrary and, IMO, stupid. You do not need to be pissing every 15 min while downing 3 gallons a day. One of these days someone is going to die not from taking DNP, but from water intoxication after reading some silly recommendation. Drink water liberally and stay hydrated. As you sweat more, pay even more attention. That's all.
Yellow vision has never been reported in the literature.
"Diarrhea - Probably caused from high doses of all these things I'm telling you that you need when you really don't. More magnesium citrate anyone?"
08-28-2006, 12:06 AM
Conciliator: DNP is a horrible choice for overweight people, they need to focus on fixing their nutrition and training issues first. If you're overweight then you're not ready for DNP
08-28-2006, 12:19 AM
Hey, I didn't say that overweight people don't need to alter their diet and exercise habits, but to say DNP should not be used by them has no basis, particularly when DNP's human use was preceded with trials in hundreds of... you guessed it, overweight individuals.Originally Posted by Iron Warrior
08-28-2006, 01:10 AM
What is the reason that DNP has such a bad rap? Obviously it causes death, but so can clen, EC, or water. Would you consider it safe for someone to try DNP if they have their diet/training completely in check, are responsible, and have also tried a number of other fat burners?
And just to note so that I'm not misunderstood, this is also assuming that a (*$&%load of research and preparation goes into athe usage.
08-28-2006, 01:19 AM
Good response, DNP gets a bad rap. Misinformation is probably the problem, for example it used to be thought that crystalline version was stronger, which is not the case.Originally Posted by Conciliator
08-28-2006, 01:34 AM
DNP has such a bad reputation for a couple of reasons. Dan Duchaine, who resurrected its use, knew bodybuilders had the "more is better" mentality, so he made it very clear that the drug was not to be abused, or it could kill you. And he was right. Even so, people still abuse it and the ones who do are often those who criticize it for the harsh sides they experience. It's just a testament to their idiocy though when they essentially chose the degree of side effects by the dose they run. It's pretty ridiculous.Originally Posted by NYhomeboy
When used responsibly, however, the drug not only results in unparalleled fat loss, but has a good safety record. Over 100,000 people took it in the 1930's and serious adverse effects were reported, but were rare. This would be expected from any drug.
Get a good product from a reputable source, go nice and easy on the dosage, treat it with caution, and you'll find that DNP is not a tenth as dangerous as most would have you think. It's a great adjunct to a good diet and training program.
08-28-2006, 05:08 AM
DNP suffers the same ailment that AS does. Misinformation and abuse by those who do not understand basic concepts of nutrition and biology. In turn their bad experiences get turned into E! and Fox News stories.
08-28-2006, 07:52 AM
Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
Yup! Those bastards!
E-Pharm Rep... PM me with any questions or concerns
08-28-2006, 11:30 AM
Jay, reason that I think that DNP differs from AS, is that this DNP misinformation even scares users of AS, T3, clen, M1t, etc. At least with misinformation about EC or AS, it is only the non-knowledgable, non-pubmed reading, non-bodybuilding world that is scared $hitless of it. But it seems to me that MOST of the semi-knowledgable bodybuilding world is scared $hitless of DNP.Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
08-28-2006, 12:04 PM
Same reason insulin and clen scares the **** outta people. They're told that misuse will kill you. AS is marketed as misuse will eventually kill you by degrading body function.
08-28-2006, 04:17 PM
Unfortunately, there's just no source for good information on DNP. I ran a cycle last year and had to go by whatever I could find on the net... a bunch of ragtag guides written by people who were scrounging for informaiton themselves, with lots of personal opinion and arbitrary recommendations. It's better than nothing, but leaves a lot to be desired.Originally Posted by NYhomeboy
Since then, I've done extensive research on DNP and have read and photocopied all of the original studies that were performed in humans during the 1930's. Many of the questions that we have today about how to use DNP for weightloss are answered directly in the original research.
08-28-2006, 05:01 PM
You seem to have good information to add here Conciliator. Introduce yourself in the general section.
08-28-2006, 05:24 PM
Conciliator... I just read the DNP thread over from meso which you contributed to. Much thanks to adding info to the BB world!
08-28-2006, 05:28 PM
Just curious, not source requesting... But if there were a research/resource site that sold DNP for research, but in pill form, would these be considered "stable"?
08-28-2006, 10:25 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by "stable." If you're talking about shelf life, DNP capsules will stay good for many, many years. And if it's the explosive potential you're talking about, I've never heard of a capsule discharging Just don't do stupid things with them, and you should be fineOriginally Posted by NYhomeboy
08-28-2006, 10:35 PM
I'll post an intoduction when I get a chance. Thank you for the invitation. I've been primarily at bodyrecomposition.com and a bit at meso, but would like to hang around this board more often. It's nice to meet you guysOriginally Posted by Jayhawkk
08-29-2006, 07:50 AM
08-29-2006, 03:27 PM
There is one source that I know of that specifically sells a "research" product. Incidentally, this is the source I use myself. Good guy, great product, and I trust it's accurately dosed. Good question.Originally Posted by NYhomeboy
08-30-2006, 07:17 PM
Maybe I misunderstood what you said bro. By overweight I was thinking you referred to sedentary people on a McDonald's diet who didn't exercise much if at all. Whey shakes on me for the mistakeOriginally Posted by Conciliator
08-31-2006, 02:31 PM
08-31-2006, 08:10 PM
Just for future reference... MM usually refers to Mind and Muscle. Use Meso to refer to MesomorphosisOriginally Posted by NYhomeboy
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