AI's for PCT - when will it end?

Alpine

Alpine

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
Check this out.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=453588&page=3&pp=20

AF is at it again whoring out the EF boards selling their new ATD product. Im so tired of AF blatantly pimping these less than remarkable products on the board. They rule with an iron fist over there. They should rename it to AF Store.

All of this AI for PCT is REALLY BAD. Its bad information and its not Helping anyone. It's born out of greed to sell these products. The ONLY people we see promoting AI for PCT are the companies selling them it seems.

Update: it appears some of my replies were deleted. Maybe yours will be too....
 

x_muscle

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
Ulter and Macro are the biggest pussies in the supplement industry.
 
Alpine

Alpine

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
Uhm ya i saw your post, it got deleted along with my reply (which was more more polite/benign). It seems the thread is now "locked" in a rather unoffical manner. Im suprised he didnt edit the very first one I made. The EF membership should be outraged by his actions. It's like nazi germany over there.

You dont have to burn the books, just remove them.

Update: it appears macro just hosed my account. I suppose im banned or maybe I just have to register a new nick. Pretty sad...
 
Alpine

Alpine

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
YOU WILL REGULATE YOUR TONE - macro :D


Well, he went ahead an rewrote history. He removed my post and then edited it totally butchering what I wrote/quoted. All that remains of the incident is a quote bearing my name. I am really just amazed by his actions. When does a message board stop becoming a message board and start becoming a marketing tool? This is a sad day for EF indeed. If you know a MOD over there or anyone who cares about the integrity or reputation of their board this should be brought to their attention. I dont think they would be too happy to see how macro is representing them. Im a small voice and I dont know anyone over there. I'm easily stifled. Im not going down withtout a little bit of a fuss though. Macro just censored the wrong guy... I wonder if he would delete BigCat's posts and hose his account too lol.

Original:
AI's have their place in cycles. However, for PCT and _RECOVERY_ a SERM such as nolvadex is a much wiser choice. Most of this "AI for PCT" is due to supplement companies wanting to sell products. You will not see any educated person/trainer/doctor prescribe or promote an AI alone for PCT.

Do some research if you dont believe me. Many such as BigCat have already spoken out on this whole "push" towards AI's. It's not the smartest move for PCT. Dont take my word for it, research it for yourself.....


Quote:
-BigCat-
The reason not to use AI's during PCT is first of all because of the risk of rebound gyno, but more importantly because not only does it not contribute to recovery, it actually hinders it. In contrast to nolva for instance, it lowers instead of increases SHBG. Lower SHBG (and keep in mind that after androgen use SHBG is already seriously depressed) leads to slower recovery at more than one point in the HPTA.

Originally Posted by skelooth
wow I'm kind of in shock. Before this thread everyone and their brother recommended that proper PCT = SERM + AI. Now I have two bottles of ATD and I'm scared to ever touch them ever again.

I wouldn't know, since before this seems to refer to a few off months prior to this, when I wasn't following the supplement scene however.

Before this for me has been extensive experience in the steroid community where this subject has only popped up once or twice, rather unsupported, and was quickly disproven by the more scientific-minded members of the community. In that community, for quite some time, proper PCT has been described as HCG + SERM. So I don't understand this commotion. No one who actually knew what they were talking about ever said you should use an AI.



I doubt the tail end of this worthless thread will get much view. Not many will notice this post or care. Business as usual will continue.

A real PCT
http://www.medibolics.com/ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf

More bad news for AI's and PCT

Quote:
Brain Res. 1994 Sep 19;657(1-2):105-23. Related Articles, Links


Effects of steroidal and non steroidal aromatase inhibitors on sexual behavior and aromatase-immunoreactive cells and fibers in the quail brain.

Foidart A, Harada N, Balthazart J.

Laboratory of Biochemistry, University of Liege, Belgium.

Castrated quail were treated with Silastic implants filled with testosterone (T) in association with injections of the aromatase inhibitors, R76713 (racemic vorozole; 1 mg/kg twice a day) or 4-hydroxyandrostenedione (OHA; 5 mg/bird twice a day). Control birds received no treatment (CX group) or were implanted with T capsules only (CX + T group). Both R76713 and OHA strongly inhibited the T-activated male copulatory behavior. This inhibition had the same magnitude in both groups. The growth of the cloacal gland, a strictly androgen-dependent process was not affected by these compounds. The treatments significantly affected the number of aromatase-immunoreactive (ARO-ir) cells in each of the six brain areas that were studied: the anterior and posterior parts of the sexually dimorphic medial preoptic nucleus (POM), the septal region, the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BNST) and the anterior and posterior parts of the tuber. This number was significantly increased in all areas by T. In agreement with our previous study, R76713 significantly inhibited this effect of T in the tuberal hypothalamus but not in the anterior POM nor in the BNST. By contrast the effect of T on the number of ARO-ir cells was completely blocked by OHA in all brain nuclei. The two inhibitors had statistically different effects in all brain regions. Like in a previous study, R76713 increased the intensity of the staining of all ARO-ir cells. This effect took several days to develop suggesting a progressive build-up of the enzyme concentration. This was also suggested by the fact that a rebound in aromatase activity was observed 16 to 24 h after a single injection of R76713. The increased immunoreactivity was not observed in OHA-treated birds. The denser immunoreactivity in R76713-treated birds and the better tissue preservation due to the aldehyde fixative that had been used provided here a clearer picture of the cellular and subcellular localization of ARO-ir material. This allowed to identify new groups of immunoreactive cells, namely in the nucleus accumbens, in the area of the paleostriatum ventrale, in the nucleus taeniae, in the medial and caudal hypothalamus and in the medial part of the mesencephalon and of the pons. Most of the immunoreactive material was located in perikarya but some of these cells were also surrounded by dense networks of ARO-ir fibers often associated with immunopositive punctate structures.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS)

1: J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1995 Sep;80(9):2658-60. Related Articles, Links


Use of ultrasensitive recombinant cell bioassay to measure estrogen levels in women with breast cancer receiving the aromatase inhibitor, letrozole.

Klein KO, Demers LM, Santner SJ, Baron J, Cutler GB Jr, Santen RJ.

Children's Hospital of Orange County, California 92668, USA.

The development of well tolerated, potent, specific, and nontoxic aromatase inhibitors for the treatment of postmenopausal women with estrogen-dependent breast cancer has been a major goal of recent studies. The third generation inhibitors now under investigation are nearly 10,000-fold more potent than first generation compounds. Currently available RIAs for plasma estradiol lack sufficient sensitivity to measure levels during aromatase inhibition and, thus, to assess drug potency precisely. The availability of an ultrasensitive bioassay for estradiol provided the opportunity to accurately assess the potency of a new third generation triazole aromatase inhibitor, letrozole (CGS 20267). We used this assay to measure estradiol levels in 14 women with metastatic breast cancer given letrozole at doses of 100 micrograms to 5.0 mg/day over a 12-week period. The lack of differences between doses and sampling times allowed pooling of data. Basal estradiol levels of 7.2 +/- 1.9 pmol/L (mean +/- SEM, 1.95 +/- 0.52 pg/mL) fell to 0.26 +/- 0.11 pmol/L (0.07 +/- 0.03 pg/mL) during the first 6 weeks of therapy and to 0.48 +/- 0.18 pmol/L (0.13 +/- 0.05 pg/mL) during the second 6 weeks of therapy. Although plasma estradiol levels measured by RIA were significantly correlated with levels measured by bioassay (r = 0.79; P < 0.01), the degree of suppression assessed by the bioassay (95 +/- 2% after 6 weeks) was greater than that determined by the RIA (81 +/- 4%), presumably due to improved ability to measure very low estradiol levels. We conclude that plasma estradiol is suppressed by letrozole to lower levels than previously observed, with equivalent suppression at all doses studied. A slight, although not statistically significant, rebound in estradiol levels occurs during the second 6 weeks of therapy compared to the first 6 weeks. Maximum inhibition of aromatase is achieved at letrozole doses as low as 100 micrograms.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial

PMID: 7673408 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
aspire210

aspire210

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
you do realize that there are different types of ai's right? that is how they work. I don't like big cat personally, he makes alot of mistakes then makes even worse excuses to cover them up. You might want to find Dr.D's take on the whole AI for PCT issue. His makes alot more sense the the sensationalist Big Cat. I have run SERMs for PCT and I have run steroidal AIs. I had a lot better luck with the steroidal AIs and I have yet to get gyno.
 
Alpine

Alpine

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
you do realize that there are different types of ai's right? that is how they work. I don't like big cat personally, he makes alot of mistakes then makes even worse excuses to cover them up. You might want to find Dr.D's take on the whole AI for PCT issue. His makes alot more sense the the sensationalist Big Cat. I have run SERMs for PCT and I have run steroidal AIs. I had a lot better luck with the steroidal AIs and I have yet to get gyno.
Yes, i realize that. And ATD and the AF product are valid and well known AI's. I never trashed his product or its other uses. I simply said ATD alone for PCT should not be promoted as the end all PCT remedy. I think just about anyone can agree on that - right?

Anyway, that is not really the issue. The issue at hand is how the dissenting post was handled. It's good that you can make your post countering what BigCat says. This "FREE" speech fosters debate and stimulating exchanges of information on the forums. This is the entire purpose of message boards as forms of information. Without this we have nothing. The utility of members sharing information is usless if they are edited and deleted by a mod bent on selling his products. I am just amazed how my post was handled on EF. It was buried at the end of a 3 page thread. It wasnt exactly a headliner. If the people selling products using (yes, using) the boards as a tool dont like what you say they simply edit/remove your comments. Like I said, when do you draw the line between a legit forum and a censored marketing/sales tool. What MODs would ever condone this type of action anyway?
 
DR.D

DR.D

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
you do realize that there are different types of ai's right? that is how they work. I don't like big cat personally, he makes alot of mistakes then makes even worse excuses to cover them up. You might want to find Dr.D's take on the whole AI for PCT issue. His makes alot more sense the the sensationalist Big Cat. I have run SERMs for PCT and I have run steroidal AIs. I had a lot better luck with the steroidal AIs and I have yet to get gyno.
BC has some major "issues". I have not drawn my line based on commercial interests, but rather years of research and experience. I appreciate that you recognize that. :)
 
Alpine

Alpine

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
BC has some major "issues". I have not drawn my line based on commercial interests, but rather years of research and experience. I appreciate that you recognize that. :)
I followed your posts (and BC's) among others on BB.com. They were great and I learned a LOT. One of the studies i quoted in the EF post was one that you originally posted in a thread on BB.com relating to delayed gyno with AI's and SD. It was a great thread and a good "debate". That is the key here - it was an open exchange of info and discussion. This is the exact opposite of what occured at EF. It was literally swept under the rug and my account was hosed. I felt I needed to bring it to someones attention. I emailed a few mods but I doubt anyone cares.
 
Alpine

Alpine

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
1. you will regulate your tone. In this case it has been regulated for you. If you wish to discusss this matter you are more than welcome. However such personal attacks will not be tolerated.

2. AI's have been reccomended as PART of PCT for a very long time. There is some disagreement as to whether they should be used solely for PCT. IMHO they should not, though many people do use them successfully in this manner and there is research to back up such.

will address the rest of your post in a bit. Needless to say you have completely the wrong impression. But dont be concerned the research and your posits will be answered. They are fair questions...
They are fair questions yet he deletes my posts and hoses my account? He is saying one thing in the open and doing another. I cant even reply or make any posts. It looks like any future nicks registered with any variation of Alpine will see the same fate.

The EF Mods should be embarrassed by his actions.

Update: Well, it looks like now he has suddenly restored my post to its original form. Maybe he is following my thread here. Anyway, its obvious damage control and back peddling on his part. If this is the case why did he DELETE my original post and hose my account in the first place. I didnt go quietly and now I've made it rather noticeable. I should have taken screen captures before he cleaned it all up. What a shady tool....
 

x_muscle

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
i think using AI during PCT not efficient. SWALE who is an MD also dont recommend it. It became popular simply because the legality, avilability, and shameless pimpping o the boards.

I have seen evidence that SEMs+AI is good combo, but AI alone is not a good idea because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile. Plus estrogen is shown to have some role in recovery.


Nolva for PCT is the best option, AI during cycle.
 
DR.D

DR.D

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
i think using AI during PCT not efficient. SWALE who is an MD also dont recommend it. It became popular simply because the legality, avilability, and shameless pimpping o the boards.

I have seen evidence that SEMs+AI is good combo, but AI alone is not a good idea because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile. Plus estrogen is shown to have some role in recovery.


Nolva for PCT is the best option, AI during cycle.
Yes, but Examestane and RXT were likely not available when Swale made his comment. Probably Teslac was the only steroidal AI then and it was not even worth the confusion to mention. Otherwise, a steroidal AI doesn't hurt. It makes sense that you don't need an AI specifically. Why reduce the amount of estrogen being converted from testosterone, when your testosterone levels are at zero?! It's pointless, with letro or dex, but a suicide substrate is different. Even those with estrogenic and androgenic metabolites seem work to some degree (OHA, 17-keto-bold, 19nor-andro) and others are very effective (Teslac, ATD, 6-oxo). So yes, you need a SERM too for sure, but certain AI's are still OK to include. Enzyme inhibitors can rebound estrogen levels are should be avoided, though some people have even said that they work too! I'm sure they would for many, but I have never tried that. Maybe commercial interests are the reason some companies started pushing these, but the facts are still the facts and I have spoken them here now and at BB and elsewhere. Also, it's not fair to say “Nolva for PCT is the best option”, some of us prefer Clomid. :p
 

size

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
I disagree with the usage of an AI during the entire course of a post cycle. However, I do think using one at the end of a cycle and into the first few days of post cycle is a good idea.
I can respect the fact that others feel differently, such as Dr.D, but I just do not think it is best. Ultimately, one has to make a decision based on the information provided and attainable and come to a decision for oneself.
 
SJA

SJA

dead sexy wino
Awards
1
  • Established
This debate gets confusing. I'm about to embark on my first useage of Ultra Hotter for PCT. But I will also incorporate TC with it. I'm just curious more than anything.
 
Alpine

Alpine

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
BC has some major "issues". I have not drawn my line based on commercial interests, but rather years of research and experience. I appreciate that you recognize that. :)
Btw, this is the type of thing that doesnt promote a good exchange on a forum. I read both of your sides. It's clear both know a great deal on the matter. He happens to disagree with AI's having anything to do with PCT. He's already been run out of EF and now he likely wont post at AM due to the same reasons. He gets attacked and then mods step in because often what he says goes against board sponsors (Designer Supps). The end result is one less educated opinoin posting ideas/arguments. Everyone loses in this situation. Before long we have a few company reps, mods who protect their interests and a mass of mindless sheep taking whats posted as fact. People come to these boards for legit, unbiased information. That is in serious jeopardy when **** like this happens. Dont let AM become the next EF. I love this board far too much. I would hate to see it...

Has anyone noticed the only people promoting AI's with PCT are those who have something to gain by it or an involvment with a company selling them? I never saw Swale promote AI's for PCT. We all know HCG + Serm is the only way to go. No so called "expert" or doctor I ever saw or spoke with has ever promoted anything other than a SERM and HCG. You can clutter up the issue with all your convoluted abstracts and posts pointing out correlations that have no real world holding. In the end, you are no better than Macro at EF. Criticisms get silenced and your snake oil keeps getting sold....

It makes me wish Nandi was still around. I know he would also shoot down all this ATD nonsense. BTW, if anyone wants to see how a real forum should be conducted head over to cutting edge muscle. These guys dont care what you sell or where you are from. Their only loyalty resides with the science and an honest open conversation. There arent as many posts but the quality is generally outstanding.
 
Alpine

Alpine

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
I would really like to keep this thread free of "anecdotal" reviews, logs, or other such unreliable reports. We all know that the results from these type of things vary wildly. If you purchased the product or receieved a free sample to test it you are by nature slightly biased to begin with. We dont need to see "testers" coming out of the woodwork to understand why an AI like ATD would or would not help in recovery.

I would like to see this stay strictly sceintific. I appreciate your attempt at helping to find answers but this type of method is never very accurate. So many factors (including Placebo) can skew results and overall impressions.

I really wish someone like Swale would chime in right now.
 
DR.D

DR.D

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Btw, this is the type of thing that doesnt promote a good exchange on a forum. I read both of your sides. It's clear both know a great deal on the matter. He happens to disagree with AI's having anything to do with PCT. He's already been run out of EF and now he likely wont post at AM due to the same reasons. He gets attacked and then mods step in because often what he says goes against board sponsors (Designer Supps). The end result is one less educated opinoin posting ideas/arguments. Everyone loses in this situation. Before long we have a few company reps, mods who protect the their interests and a mass of midless sheep take whats posted as fact. People come to these boards for legit, unbiased information. That is in serious jeopardy when **** like this happens. Dont let AM become the next EF. I love this board far too much. I would hate to see it...

Has anyone noticed the only people promoting AI's with PCT are those who have something to gain by it or an involvment with a company selling them? I never saw Swale promote an AI's for PCT. We all know HCG + Serm is the way to go. No so called "expert" or doctor I ever saw or spoke with has ever promoted anything other than a SERM and HCQ. You can clutter up the issue with all your convoluted abstracts and posts pointing out correlations that have no real world holding. In the end, you are no better than Macro at EF. Criticisms get silenced and your snake oil keeps getting sold....

It makes me wish Nandi was still around. I know he would also shoot down all this ATD nonsense. BTW, if anyone wants to see how a real forum should be conducted head over to cutting edge muscle.
Say what?! Look bro, he started deleting my posts over at BB! I offered him a blessing of long life in response to a post where he suggested I be shot, he wouldn't change his statements or his mind, and I was better off dead with my opinions. He did to me what you are complaining was done to you at EF! I was censored and shot down with no benifit of the doubt. Does that promote good exchange on a forum, or just cut out views you don't like personally? I have NEVER been accused of commercialism by ANYONE ever before this. It's ridiculous to even suggest if you really know me. Ask anyone at DS even, I don't always suggest our products! It's gets me in trouble on occasion in fact, but people respect that I will tell them the truth and I do as best I see it. I was experimenting with Ketoconazole and Teslac on my PCT's before half of you guys were even lifting weights, so don't say I have any side interests promoting ATD. It just works, and it's erroneous to say otherwise at this point. I post infomation from a sincere need to learn and inform. I challenge you to find anyone (other that BC) that says otherwise.
 
kwyckemynd00

kwyckemynd00

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
Yeah Alpine, Doc isn't "part of" DS. He just does a bit of contracted out type research work, if I'm correct.

He'll give it to you straight.
 
Alpine

Alpine

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
Say what?! Look bro, he started deleting my posts over at BB! I offered him a blessing of long life in response to a post where he suggested I be shot, he wouldn't change his statements or his mind, and I was better off dead with my opinions. He did to me what you are complaining was done to you at EF! I was censored and shot down with no benifit of the doubt. Does that promote good exchange on a forum, or just cut out views you don't like personally? I have NEVER been accused of commercialism by ANYONE ever before this. It's ridiculous to even suggest if you really know me. Ask anyone at DS even, I don't always suggest our products! It's gets me in trouble on occasion in fact, but people respect that I will tell them the truth and I do as best I see it. I was experimenting with Ketoconazole and Teslac on my PCT's before half of you guys were even lifting weights, so don't say I have any side interests promoting ATD. It just works, and it's erroneous to say otherwise at this point. I post infomation from a sincere need to learn and inform. I challenge you to find anyone (other that BC) that says otherwise.
If your voice was silenced then that is also wrong. I didnt read the entire exchange and I dont really know how it all played out exactly. I just know how things sometimes go on these boards when sponsors and mods but heads with a differing outside viewpoint. The entire intent of this post is just to keep things open so we can even have a dicussion or argument. I'm not taking sides or trying to slam anyone. I just want to make sure AM doesnt end up like EF. I made ONE post against ATD for PCT and it was deleted and my account was "expired". All it took was one post. I dont want it to get that bad here (or anywhere else). IMO mods who are also company reps and/or board sponsors is just a bad way to go. I dont think I need to explain that one.
 
DR.D

DR.D

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
If your voice was silenced then that is also wrong. I didnt read the entire exchange and I dont really know how it all played out exactly. I just know how things sometimes go on these boards when sponsors and mods but heads with a differing outside viewpoint. The entire intent of this post is just to keep things open so we can even have a dicussion or argument. I'm not taking sides or trying to slam anyone. I just want to make sure AM doesnt end up like EF. I made ONE post against ATD for PCT and it was deleted and my account was "expired". All it took was one post. I dont want it to get that bad here (or anywhere else). IMO mods who are also company reps and sponsors is just a bad way to go. I dont think I need to explain that one.
I can totally appreciate that. I can assure you, Bobo would not allow commercial interest to turn this into a junk science board! But please consider Klaus' report. Anecdotal evidence is the bottom line and best kind if you ask me! That's what I've said to start with, don't take my word for it, try it yourself. On the same token, don't dare call me a liar or act like you know anything about it unless you have tried it yourself. The papers can't always tell you, but real world results speak for themselves. BTW, Klaus is a fine scientist and biased in no way that I am aware of. Please be fare and respectful of his report.
 
Last edited:
Alpine

Alpine

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
I can totally appreciate that. I can assure you, Bobo would not allow commercial interest to turn this into a junk science board! But please consider Klaus' report. Anecdotal evidence is the bottom line and best kind if you ask me! That's what I've said to start with, do take my word for it, try it yourself. On the same token, don't dare can me a liar or act like you know anything about it unless you have tried it yourself. There papers can't always tell you, real world results speak for themselves. BTW, Klaus is a fine scientist and biased in no way that I am aware of. Please be fare and respectful of his report.
I have tried it myself. I have had 3 bottles of RXT. I would be happy to help validate my purchasing records/history. I was not very impressed. Im not going to go into it anymore than that - no need to sling mud.

I still feel Anecdotal reports by random testers/members doesnt carry much weight. Ive seen some downright wacky reports come back from so called "beta testers". Miracle gyno removal and so on... it just doesnt hold much water imo.

By the way Dr.D - I like what you have written incorporating an AI with a SERM. You make it very clear that the SERM is the CORE of the PCT. The use of an AI to deal with estrogen becomes more acceptable when HCG is also used I suppose. Either way at least you are making more responsible recommendations.

This write up was very well done. It actually calls for an AI. http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php?pageID=431&issueID=35 <-- for anyone like me who needs to constantly be reading to keep up. This guy actually promotes AI use. Although Swale has said this guy is way off.

/me shines the SWALE-signal beam into the air! :D

I linked him to this thread... Dunno if he will chime in.

EliteFitness Update: Suprisingly Mr. X and Polfajelfa responded to my emails on the matter. Thanks to Mr. X my account is now unlocked. They are stand up guys. Im not going to bother getting into it again over there in regard to ATD and PCT. It's pretty clear how macro handles things when his products are concerned. I'd like to say that macro doesnt represent the entire mod staff at EF. I can tell by the responses I recieved that some of my opinions may even be shared.
 
Dwight Schrute

Dwight Schrute

I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Awards
2
  • Legend!
  • Established
Btw, this is the type of thing that doesnt promote a good exchange on a forum. I read both of your sides. It's clear both know a great deal on the matter. He happens to disagree with AI's having anything to do with PCT. He's already been run out of EF and now he likely wont post at AM due to the same reasons. He gets attacked and then mods step in because often what he says goes against board sponsors (Designer Supps). The end result is one less educated opinoin posting ideas/arguments. Everyone loses in this situation. Before long we have a few company reps, mods who protect their interests and a mass of mindless sheep taking whats posted as fact. People come to these boards for legit, unbiased information. That is in serious jeopardy when **** like this happens. Dont let AM become the next EF. I love this board far too much. I would hate to see it...

Has anyone noticed the only people promoting AI's with PCT are those who have something to gain by it or an involvment with a company selling them? I never saw Swale promote AI's for PCT. We all know HCG + Serm is the only way to go. No so called "expert" or doctor I ever saw or spoke with has ever promoted anything other than a SERM and HCG. You can clutter up the issue with all your convoluted abstracts and posts pointing out correlations that have no real world holding. In the end, you are no better than Macro at EF. Criticisms get silenced and your snake oil keeps getting sold....

It makes me wish Nandi was still around. I know he would also shoot down all this ATD nonsense. BTW, if anyone wants to see how a real forum should be conducted head over to cutting edge muscle. These guys dont care what you sell or where you are from. Their only loyalty resides with the science and an honest open conversation. There arent as many posts but the quality is generally outstanding.

Are you kidding me? He decided to leave because I closed a thread after he suggested Dr.D be shot and sterilized. Before he went off his rocker there was a 2 page debtate that is STILL UP. You are confusing the issue of a company being protected with my policies on being civil. His opinions weren't delted, censored or changed in any way. His lack of class and dispecable comments caused his thread to be locked. He burns his own bridges by the way he acts and like a pure hypocrit posts a protocol on how people should act.

Myabe you actually need to do you OWN research because if you did on THIS board you will see I've been telling people not to use AI's the WHOLE TIME. So this board is definetly not following someone like sheep.

I think the talk about Nolva being toxic is a crock and this board by a LONG shot recommends Nolva over AI's.
 

323mattb

Board Supporter
Awards
0
Great read indeed. That thread brings up a question for me, as I'm a newb to AAS. In fact, I have yet to use anything that is "illegal." Anyway, Anthony Roberts has recently become the Steroid Board Modedrator at AL, and my assumption was that he must be very knowledgable, as AL is not a "junk science" board, quite the opposite so it seems. the thread in the link has Swale, who I also understand is quite informed, basically trashing A. Roberts. Llewellyn seems to agree with Swale. PA talks trash on Llewellyn. He and Dr. D also have many disagreements with Big Cat, and Big Cat recently has put down Author L. Rea. What a mess. Who the **** are we supposed to listen too?!?!
 
Dwight Schrute

Dwight Schrute

I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Awards
2
  • Legend!
  • Established
Great read indeed. That thread brings up a question for me, as I'm a newb to AAS. In fact, I have yet to use anything that is "illegal." Anyway, Anthony Roberts has recently become the Steroid Board Modedrator at AL, and my assumption was that he must be very knowledgable, as AL is not a "junk science" board, quite the opposite so it seems. the thread in the link has Swale, who I also understand is quite informed, basically trashing A. Roberts. Llewellyn seems to agree with Swale. PA talks trash on Llewellyn. He and Dr. D also have many disagreements with Big Cat, and Big Cat recently has put down Author L. Rea. What a mess. Who the **** are we supposed to listen too?!?!
I listen to the person who is quaified to lecture on the subject at various HRT Seminars.
 

x_muscle

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
I just want to share my expereince, and research about PCT. I did a 12 week cycle last summer, and took me long time to recover.....I was using ATD, Nolva, Clomid and fenugreek. But i took me realy long time to recover, so i researched more about PCT and found many thing i tried before were wrong.


IMO the ideal PCT starts with the begining of the cycle:

during cycle: low dose AI + 250 IU HCG per week (no more than 250iu/ day according to swole)

Post cycle: SERM colmid or nolva (low dose i mean 4mg of clomid or 25 mg of nolva, and decrease dose in 5 day incruments)

HCG 250 IU for first 5-7 days of PCT
 
Alpine

Alpine

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
Are you kidding me? He decided to leave because I closed a thread after he suggested Dr.D be shot and sterilized. Before he went off his rocker there was a 2 page debtate that is STILL UP. You are confusing the issue of a company being protected with my policies on being civil. His opinions weren't delted, censored or changed in any way. His lack of class and dispecable comments caused his thread to be locked. He burns his own bridges by the way he acts and like a pure hypocrit posts a protocol on how people should act.

Myabe you actually need to do you OWN research because if you did on THIS board you will see I've been telling people not to use AI's the WHOLE TIME. So this board is definetly not following someone like sheep.

I think the talk about Nolva being toxic is a crock and this board by a LONG shot recommends Nolva over AI's.
I was basically referring to boards in general. I wasn’t being specific to AM alone. And I wasn’t referring to any one circumstance. As for a reference of him not posting here anymore thats just what I got fromm him. I dont really know what went down exactly. I do think he is a valuable member though. His comments may have been out of line but I feel he is actually correct in his thoughts on PCT. I dont really want the focus of this topic to be the little squabble you had with BC anyway. Lets just call it water under the bridge...
 
Dwight Schrute

Dwight Schrute

I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Awards
2
  • Legend!
  • Established
I was basically referring to boards in general. I wasn’t being specific to AM alone. And I wasn’t referring to any one circumstance. As for a reference of him not posting here anymore thats just what I got form him. I dont really know what went down exactly. I do think he is a valuable member though.
Then maybe if you read the post you will know what went down.

And if you were referring to boards in general then you shouldn't have implied he was run off because he went against Deisgner Supps (which he didn't).


I could care less what value he is. If you make a statement such as he did then you don't need to be here no matter what contributions you have given.
 
Dwight Schrute

Dwight Schrute

I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Awards
2
  • Legend!
  • Established
I wasn’t being specific to AM alone. And I wasn’t referring to any one circumstance.


He's already been run out of EF and now he likely wont post at AM due to the same reasons. He gets attacked and then mods step in because often what he says goes against board sponsors (Designer Supps).

That was being specific about one circumstance.
 
Alpine

Alpine

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
That was being specific about one circumstance.
His comments were a bit harsh and out of line. He was obviously very frustrated it seems. I dont really blame him though. A lot of this "science" is just complete nonsense.

Anyway, sorry to tarnish AM or your ego Bobo. Let it go...
The intent of this post was not to rehash that previous garbage. I shouldnt have even mentioned the falling out espeically since I'd only heard one side of it.
 
Alpine

Alpine

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
After an invitation to this thread, let me fill in a few details.

First, I am a DO, not an MD. More importantly, I am very much up-to-date with respect to current AI's. What I currently prescribe for my patients is Arimidex.

The reason AI's should not be used during PCT is the simple fact you are trying to restore natural balance to the endocrine pathways. Administering a powerful endocrine disrupter in counterproductive to that end. THEN add in the estrogen rebound of AI's, and subsquent increased risk of gyno.

Next, you extend the period the Lipid Profile is trashed, and therefore time of plaque deposition within the cardiovascular system, should you drive E too low--and that is easy to do once the cycle has ended. And no, Aromisin has not been shown to comparatively avoid this risk in male subjects.

Which brings me to another point: scientific studies are grossly misused on these Boards. You simply cannot extrapolate conclusions regarding adult males based upon studies conducted on females. Our bodies are that different.

AI's are to be used during the cycle, to maintain physiological levels of estrogen, and D/C'd once T levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to that induced by 200mg per week IM.

I just don't think anyone who understands how the endocrine system functions would ever recommend an AI for PCT.

IMPO, Anthony Roberts is absolutely clueless. I have no idea where he comes up with the totally idiotic ideas he publishes. The fact he refuses to even answer any questions once he is questioned about them--but instead merely tries to ignite his flamethrower--warrants no respect from anyone.

I'm really over at a different Board for the precious time I have for this stuff these days, so won't be able to follow this thread, but wish you all well.
Thank you Swale. Your opinions/ideas are appreciated.
 
Dwight Schrute

Dwight Schrute

I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Awards
2
  • Legend!
  • Established
His comments were a bit harsh and out of line. He was obviously very frustrated it seems. I dont really blame him though. A lot of this "science" is just complete nonsense.

Anyway, sorry to tarnish AM or your ego Bobo. Let it go...
The intent of this post was not to rehash that previous garbage. I shouldn't have even mentioned the falling out especially since I'd only heard one side of it.
A bit harsh? You can't blame him? That's ridiculous and if that is the way you feel then you don't need to be here either. I don't have to time to deal with people who suggest someone be shot or sterilized for an opinion. Its called human decency and its seems to be lacking in those that suggest and support such actions.

And don't even think about bringing that bullshit in about ego. Its about acting civil and not assuming something about a situation. If you don't know, don't comment because its a slap in the face to imply I censor people for monetary reasons.

If that is how you feel and you can't blame someone for actually saying someone should be sterilized or shot then you aren't welcome here.
 
Alpine

Alpine

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
A bit harsh? You can't blame him? That's ridiculous and if that is the way you feel then you don't need to be here either. I don't have to time to deal with people who suggest someone be shot or sterilized for an opinion. Its called human decency and its seems to be lacking in those that suggest and support such actions.

And don't even think about bringing that bullshit in about ego. Its about acting civil and not assuming something about a situation. If you don't know, don't comment because its a slap in the face to imply I censor people for monetary reasons.

If that is how you feel and you can't blame someone for actually saying someone should be sterilized or shot then you aren't welcome here.

Hey, I dont condone the comments. Ok? I feel he is right on his thoughts about PCT though. Im sorry for insinuating. AM is a great place and I just want it to stay that way. I personally feel that his absence is a loss to the community. That is just my opinion. It appears he has indeed burned bridges by losing his cool. Lets let this aspect of the thread rest now. Its way off topic and I'm partly to blame.
 
Dwight Schrute

Dwight Schrute

I am faster than 80% of all snakes
Awards
2
  • Legend!
  • Established
Hey, I dont condone the comments. Ok? I feel he is right on his thoughts about PCT though. Im sorry for insinuating. AM is a great place and I just want it to stay that way.
Guess what, I agreed with him as well and I stated that in the thread before it was closed.

I'm glad you like because I work hard at keeping it that way and when people imply certain things I don't take it too well.

Yes I make money off the board (I have bills just like everyone else) but no I will never sell out my opinion or anytone elses. Do a search on SWALES's posts here and you will find another exmaple of me going aginst someone that pays me to advertise. I invited SWALE over to give his opinion to go aginst a sponsor.
 

x_muscle

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
Another reason not to use Ai during PCT. It appears that esrogen has a role in recovery. " Normal hypothalamic level, estrogen may in fact arouse the HPTA. This data may be steady with some information that propose tamoxifen is estrogenic and not anti-estrogenic at this level. This data does not propose any diverse method, describes how it could be probable that nolvadex may be better than Clomid, since it work as an estrogen at the hypothalamus and as an anti-estrogen at the pituitary"


Evidence for direct estrogen regulation of the human gonadotropin-releasing hormone gene.

Radovick S, Ticknor CM, Nakayama Y, Notides AC, Rahman A, Weintraub BD, Cutler GB Jr, Wondisford FE.

Division of Pediatric, University Hospitals of Cleveland, Ohio.

This study is an attempt to determine whether estrogen could directly regulate human gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) gene expression. Human GnRH expression vectors were constructed by fusing various 5' flanking regions of the human GnRH gene upstream of the luciferase reporter gene (LUC) or the thymidine kinase promoter linked to the chloramphenicol acetyltransferase reporter gene (CAT). These constructs were transiently transfected into a human choriocarcinoma cell line (JEG-3) and LUC or CAT activity was measured after either no treatment or treatment with various concentrations of estradiol. A stimulatory estrogen response element (ERE) was localized to a 32-bp region between -547 and -516 bp. To determine whether estrogen receptor bound to this region of the gene, we performed DNase I footprinting using purified calf uterine estrogen receptor. DNase I footprinting demonstrates a strong footprint between -567 and -514 bp of the human GnRH gene. In addition, an avidin-biotin complex DNA-binding assay demonstrated that a biotinylated DNA fragment containing -541 to -517 bp of the human GnRH gene bound 35S-labeled estrogen receptor as well as a biotinylated DNA fragment containing the xenopus vitellogenin ERE. On the other hand, the negative control biotinylated DNA fragment derived from adenovirus 5 bound insignificant amounts of 35S-labeled estrogen receptor. Both the GnRH ERE and vitellogenin ERE bound 35S-labeled estrogen receptor with high affinity (approximately 1 nM). These data indicate that the human GnRH gene contains an ERE sufficient to mediate a stimulatory response to estrogen in heterologous cells. Based upon these data we hypothesize that the human GnRH gene might also be directly regulated by estrogen in the hypothalamus, and that this regulation may explain the GnRH hypersecretion observed at the time of the preovulatory luteinizing hormone (LH) surge.
 
Alpine

Alpine

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
Im on macro's shitlist now. He's deleting and editing all my posts over at EF. He really disliked it when I linked to this thread lol. It's pretty funny really. Anything that portrays his new ATD product in a negative light gets "moderated".

Too bad you can buy that garbage at BulkNutrition.com by the kilo for DIRT CHEAP.

Hey macro, this ones for you bud. :D
http://isayfreedom.ytmnd.com lol

BUMPPITY BUMP FOR AF Store GANG!
 
Alpine

Alpine

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
I invited SWALE over to give his opinion to go aginst a sponsor.
lol, i messaged Swale over at meso and begged him to grace us with is presence. Who's message did he get first? ;)

I just got home from the bars (im in college). Maybe I dont represent the BB community so well, lol. Im glad to see this thread is still alive and kicking. As long as the legit (correct) information trickles out to the people who need it then its all worth while. All posts regarding ATD by me or others (x_muscle) at EF have since been edited/deleted by macro. Any reference to this thread was also deleted. At least AM provides shelter from the strom. :D

Macro tried to stifle the wrong dude. He stepped on a landmine. I made a god damn Extravaganza out of the situation - better luck next time macro. :(
Im afraid you lose (sales, lol), good day sir. http://youlose.ytmnd.com/

And yes hes following this thread (lurking coward). He already PM'd me about 5 times telling me to "check myself". **** AF and their overpriced over-hyped horseshit supplements. You cant dump on your community and expect it to last. You have mistaken our kindness for weakness/stupidity. You failed to stay humble as a businessman and it WILL catch up to you. Eventually all you will have left is the newbies who dont know any better. I used to buy r-ala strictly from AF up until now because i liked supporting the "little guys". So much for that. We could take you hyping T-rex like a clen killer. We all bit our tongue and looked the other way. It really started to get hard when your greed caused you to fall in line and sell this bunk ass ATD. Then you turn on the very hand that feeds.....

gnight

p.s. Im not slamming EF, there are a LOT of good guys (and mods like Mr. X) over there. I have a feeling many of them are tired of all the AF crap themselves.
 
DR.D

DR.D

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Another reason not to use Ai during PCT. It appears that esrogen has a role in recovery. " Normal hypothalamic level, estrogen may in fact arouse the HPTA. This data may be steady with some information that propose tamoxifen is estrogenic and not anti-estrogenic at this level. This data does not propose any diverse method, describes how it could be probable that nolvadex may be better than Clomid, since it work as an estrogen at the hypothalamus and as an anti-estrogen at the pituitary" ...
Don't get it twisted bud, that only explains the temporary surge in the monthly cycle of a woman but does not relate to men's response in PCT. It's just a trick mother nature devised that was developed to support a follicular break. If you notice, the second post-ovulatory estrogen spike does not correspond to an LH or FSH peak, it acts to suppress it! It's dose dependent since a certain level of estrogen necessarily closes the axis, period. Don't try to make estrogen sound like the good guy and don't try to apply reports that have no relevance to us. This issue has gotten cloudy enough without all the BS floating around. In other words, the info you cited is not applicable to Nolva or Clomid.
 
jonny21

jonny21

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
I followed the link to the closed thread with BC remarks, which are quite inappropriate I might add.

I don't want to start **** but I would need some evidence supporting BC & his statements before I would even consider them. I have not found any supporting info re: DHEA being suppressive. To the contrary, I found info stating that it was supportive to Testosterone production only when test levels were low. I would assume that during PCT they were indeed low.

I have also not been able to find any info showing that steroidal AI's cause a rebound effect. I have found info that suggest non-steroidal AI's do suppress test production, hence their efficacy of prevent breast tumors.

If anyone could produce human not studies or info supporting the aforementioned remarks it would be greatly appreciated.

I am not looking for studies done on quails, mice or any other farm animals. There is a ton of studies done with human beings in this area. maybe I am looking in the wrong place.
 
skull

skull

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
just a thought

:dance: :dance: If you ran a PCT with ATD alone[UHer] after a cycle of say max or ergomax and were concerned about this 'gyno rebound'would it make any difference ending PCT with a weaker AI like 6oxo ?
 

intv

Board Supporter
Awards
1
  • Established
EF, AF, ulter, and macro - Don Herbert called. Said he's gonna try to build a time machine to rescue you guys from last year!
 
Mass_69

Mass_69

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
I have also not been able to find any info showing that steroidal AI's cause a rebound effect.
I am with you on this one. I went back and forth in the 19 pg Delayed Gyno thread at BB.com, and no one could provide me with conclusive evidence. PA actually agreed. Big Cat posted a couple of studies about AIs and aromatase upregulation, but they did not appear to be conclusive/relevent, and none showed that this happens with steroidal AIs. I didn't get any answers from my responses.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=8408685#post8408685
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=8410427#post8410427
 
jonny21

jonny21

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
I am with you on this one. I went back and forth in the 19 pg Delayed Gyno thread at BB.com, and no one could provide me with conclusive evidence. PA actually agreed. Big Cat posted a couple of studies about AIs and aromatase upregulation, but they did not appear to be conclusive/relevent, and none showed that this happens with steroidal AIs. I didn't get any answers from my responses.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=8408685#post8408685
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=8410427#post8410427
I wouldn't expect to find any pertinent info on BB.com but I was on Pub Med and and various other searches and could not find ANY info to back up his (BC's) statements re: DHEA and steroidal AI's. I have found info supporting DR. D's statements re: DHEA and Test production and steroidal AI's and their lack of resultant estrogen rebound.

EDIT: By the way, I am not affiliated with anyone other than myself. I just like to have pertinent, factual, and reliable info before I make any choices regarding what goes into or on my body.
 
Last edited:

x_muscle

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
Don't get it twisted bud, that only explains the temporary surge in the monthly cycle of a woman but does not relate to men's response in PCT. It's just a trick mother nature devised that was developed to support a follicular break. If you notice, the second post-ovulatory estrogen spike does not correspond to an LH or FSH peak, it acts to suppress it! It's dose dependent since a certain level of estrogen necessarily closes the axis, period. Don't try to make estrogen sound like the good guy and don't try to apply reports that have no relevance to us. This issue has gotten cloudy enough without all the BS floating around. In other words, the info you cited is not applicable to Nolva or Clomid.
Maybe i didnt provide enough evidence to support my claim:


First i didnt claim estrogen is your friend, im just sugessting eliminating estrogen to low levels may not be a good idea.

Testosterone and DHT are known to inhibit HPTA by slowing GnRH pulse in the hypothalamus, In a study subjects in saw an increase in LH and FSH by reducing pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (1). Notice the study is done at the pituitary level, which makes data aplicable to males and females. In another study data indicate that E2-activated estrogen receptor-alpha represses human GnRHR gene transcription via an indirect mechanism involving CBP and possibly other transcriptional regulators.Notice also the study i cited in my last post is done in vitro, which dosnt limit its results to women only.

1) Radovick S, Wondisford FE, Nakayama Y, Yamada M, Cutler GB Jr, Weintraub BD.Isolation and characterization of the human gonadotropin-releasing hormone gene in the hypothalamus and placenta.Mol Endocrinol. 1990 Mar;4(3):476-80.


2) An activator protein 1-like motif mediates 17beta-estradiol repression of gonadotropin-releasing hormone receptor promoter via an estrogen receptor alpha-dependent mechanism in ovarian and breast cancer cells.
Source: Mol Endocrinol (Molecular endocrinology (Baltimore, Md.)) 2003 Dec; 17(12): 2613-29
Additional Info: United States
Standard No: ISSN: 0888-8809; NLM Unique Journal Identifier: 8801431
Language: English
Abstract: Although it is recognized that estrogen is one of the most important regulators of GnRH receptor (GnRHR) gene expression, the mechanism underlying the regulation at the transcriptional level is unknown. In the present study, we demonstrated that 17beta-estradiol (E2) repressed human GnRHR promoter via an activator protein 1-like motif and estrogen receptor-alpha, of which the DNA-binding domain and the ligand-binding domain were indispensable for the repression. Interestingly, the same cis-acting motif was also found to be important for both the basal activity and phorbol 12-myristate 13-acetate responsiveness of the GnRHR promoter. EMSAs indicated that multiple transcription factors including c-Jun and c-Fos bound to the activator protein 1-like site and that their DNA binding activity was not significantly affected by E2 treatment. In addition, we demonstrated that the E2 repression could be antagonized by phorbol 12-myristate 13-acetate, which stimulated c-Jun phosphorylation on serine 63, a process that is a prerequisite for recruitment of the transcriptional coactivator cAMP response element binding protein (CREB)-binding protein (CBP). Concomitantly, we found that overexpression of CBP could reverse the suppression in a dose-dependent manner. Taken together, our data indicate that E2-activated estrogen receptor-alpha represses human GnRHR gene transcription via an indirect mechanism involving CBP and possibly other transcriptional regulators.
 

x_muscle

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
And for people who are using AI fr long peroids of time think about it again:


The role of aromatization in testosterone supplementation: effects on cognition in older men.

Cherrier MM, Matsumoto AM, Amory JK, Ahmed S, Bremner W, Peskind ER, Raskind MA, Johnson M, Craft S.

Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, University of Washington Medical School, Seattle, WA, USA. [email protected].

OBJECTIVE: To determine the contribution of conversion of testosterone (T) to estradiol on cognitive processing in a population of healthy older men who received T supplementation. METHODS: Sixty healthy, community-dwelling volunteers aged 50 to 90 years completed a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study. Participants were randomized to receive weekly IM injections of 100 mg T enanthate plus daily oral placebo pill (T group, n = 20), 100 mg testosterone enanthate plus 1 mg daily of anastrozole, an aromatase inhibitor (oral pill), to block the conversion of T to estradiol (AT group, n = 19), or saline injection and placebo pill (placebo group, n = 21) for 6 weeks. Cognitive evaluations using a battery of neuropsychological tests were conducted at baseline, week 3 and week 6 of treatment, and after 6 weeks of washout. RESULTS: Circulating total T was increased from baseline an average of 238% in the T and AT treatment groups. Estradiol increased an average of 81% in the T group and decreased 50% in the AT group during treatment. Significant improvements in spatial memory were evident in the AT and T treatment groups. However, only the group with elevated estradiol levels (T group) demonstrated significant verbal memory improvement. CONCLUSION: In healthy older men, improvement in verbal memory induced by testosterone administration depends on aromatization of testosterone to estradiol, whereas improvement in spatial memory occurs in the absence of increases in estradiol.
 

Similar threads


Top