Delayed Gyno from SD...How to Prevent?
- 01-08-2006, 02:02 AM
Delayed Gyno from SD...How to Prevent?
New to this particular forum, but have been reading for quite sometime now.
I ran a search on the "delayed gyno" side effect from SD, and I had a couple of questions regarding this issue for those of us in the "limbo period" after our SD cycles; I, for one, am about to start my fourth week of PCT (Tamoxifen Citrate, Rebound XT, and Fenugreek) after a four week SD cycle.
All this delayed gyno talk makes me a little nervous for what awaits down the road; I have never had ANY issues with gyno, and this was my first SD cycle.
My questions are as follows:
What can someone do in case they have a gyno flare up down the road after a cycle? Run another PCT with just Nolva?
Or better yet, how can we prevent this delayed gyno from occurring? Is there something I can begin supplementing after my PCT (trib, DHEA, etc) to prevent running into this delayed gyno side effect?
Thanks in advance for any assistance...kick ass board by the way.
- 01-08-2006, 11:33 AM
I'm not sure that this is a "real" issue yet, but just in case, I'd use a pinch of letro (like 0.1mg EOD) or continue with the RXT @25mg/d after your normal PCT is done if you are really worried about it. I honestly have to wonder about these claims though.
- 01-08-2006, 03:23 PM
01-08-2006, 04:38 PM
Some of the members making these claims are not just members with 7 posts that joined last month. There are also posts on "other" boards regarding this "issue" (can't say I have really read them all, though), so there's something to it.Originally Posted by DR.D
While most are suspecting a direct relation to estrogens, my curiosity has me thinking that this is more likely a relationship with hyperprolactinaemia and/or an alteration in dopamine levels. With the dopamine levels lowering, this can cause excess prolactin, along with lack of feeling of well being (the SD lethargy). While lethargy from SD has been attributed to hypoglycaemia, there could still be a relation to prolactin with this. Hypoglycemic stress has been associated with increases in prolactin, although the response lessens over time. Not to mention that the SD lethargy appears to be remedied with carbs to treat the hypoglycaemia - and a meal in carbs can stimulate dopamine.
Also, the kind of gyno/psuedogyno I experienced sounds more like prolactin symptoms than estrogenic ones (excess fatty tissue, nipple sensitivity/pain, but no "lump" or notice of enlarged gland, sex drive stinks, bouts of hypogonadism, fatigue/lack of feeling of well being). Of course, a couple of those come as estrogenic symptoms, too.
Something to consider is that everyone instituded some type of estrogen control, but who thought of prolactin control for SD? It wasn't a forthought in my mind. I had typically associated needing PRL control for progestins, i.e. nandrolones, trenbolones, etc. Of course, estogen is needed for the activity of prolactin, so maybe this has to do with the "delay" - until after PCT, and estrogen levels were back to normal.
This is all theory and anecdotal and I'm grasping for answers, but I can tell you that these aren't just claims. I have used PHs/androgens for about 7 years, and NEVER had this kind of problem until trying SD, not even M1T that'll shut you down in a few days. Of course everyone is different, some get gyno from test, boldenone, nandrolone, some don't. I should be hearing from my Endocrinologist soon on blood work, so maybe I can make more of this, then.
01-08-2006, 05:01 PM
I agree, prolactin may play a role. However, I still don't like the dopamine hypothesis. If dopamine is down-regulated during an SD cycle (the lethargy, etc..) then there should be a rebound effect post cycle that reduces the chance of prolactin biosynthesis and sides. It makes more sense that it is up-regulated on cycle because the effects I mostly associate with extra dopamine are sedative in nature. Then, post cycle down-reg through negative feedback inhibition (of tyrosine hydroxylase perhaps) would lend itself to increased dysthymia and prolactinic effects. If that's the case, I would expect to see this much more frequently after dbol or dec have been used, but you don't really. I just think that this is unlikely. Using a dopaminergic is the only way to really know if this is the case, unless someone has some before and after bloodwork displaying dopaminergic status, metabolites, enzymes involved, etc. In the thread that WheyGood sited above, I gave a few possible explanations, but as of now, I am just grasping like you. If truly experienced users are getting this, I promise I will not stop exploring it until a conclusion and patch can be established. Please let us know what your testing reveals.Originally Posted by Mass_69
01-08-2006, 11:12 PM
Thanks for the link and posts, all. I really appreciate your responses in helping to "solve" exactly what the underlying issues related to this delayed gyno actually are.
In the meantime, I'll have some Tamoxifen Citrate on the shelf just in case I run into this issue. BTW, after my final dose of Nolva tomorrow (for my PCT), should I just continue to run Rebound XT for about two or three weeks at 25 mg? Would that help prevent any estrogen rebound sides from stopping the Nolva?
01-09-2006, 06:55 PM
It's a VERY real issue, and it's popping up EVERYWHERE, all over the net. Nobody can figure out what the cause is exactl yet, not even close.Originally Posted by DR.D
01-09-2006, 06:56 PM
01-10-2006, 01:08 AM
01-10-2006, 01:09 AM
I've seen it at BB too, but where else? Do you have some good links I could check out? Are all the stories the same?Originally Posted by Xboom
01-10-2006, 02:02 PM
I didnt experience any of this with SD. But some suggestions I can give are the following:Originally Posted by LiveBait
1. Run Nolva for PCT as the proven dosages of 60/40/40/20.
2. If u must go with ATD, ramp it down and possibly use B5 or even better RU-486.
01-10-2006, 03:12 PM
Would you suggest running a Nolva-only PCT?Originally Posted by Syr
..along with support supps of course.
01-11-2006, 04:30 AM
Actually yes, for SD I recommend Nolva as PCT.Originally Posted by Xboom
Maybe you can add a low dose of ATD (50/25) for just the first 2 weeks.
Among the supps I would always include a cortisol blocker, LXT is my favourite but SAN Blaze works too.
01-11-2006, 01:35 PM
I know that Nolva is normally recommended, but I was wondering about completely cutting out the ATD, and running JUST nolva, as it seems to be the only constant (aside from SD) in all of these delayed gyno cases.Originally Posted by Syr
01-11-2006, 01:49 PM
In my mind, it is difficult to prevent something if one can't directly point out the cause.
In my mind, nolva or ralox is the number one choice for gyno.
01-11-2006, 02:09 PM
Yes, do not use ATD at all. Fenugreek and maybe 6oxo could be added to Nolva, but nolva by itself is more then enough for your pct.Originally Posted by Xboom
The only thing that i wont ever stress enough is the use of a cortisol blocker like 7oh.
01-12-2006, 12:47 PM
My Hamster has ran 20 mg for 3 weeks with only Nolva PCT. He hasn't developed any gyno and its been quite a few months since PCT ended.Originally Posted by Xboom
01-12-2006, 02:40 PM
If I haven't mentioned this already, my Siberian Guinea Pig, Boris, has been on three cycles of Superdrol in the last year and used Nolva each time for PCT (no ATD).Originally Posted by jagleaso
Boris has acheived solid increases in size and strength during each cycle, with minimal sides (he did complain about "lower back pumps" a few times after running on his wheel).
There were no problems with gyno, delayed or otherwise.
01-12-2006, 11:28 PM
My North American Cave Weasel has run 3 cycles as well, in about the last 14months. He is definitely gyno prone but has had great cycles and very successful, side free PCTs with each. One time, he didn't use Nolva or ATD! Just fen and DHEA. Go figure.Originally Posted by WheyGood
01-12-2006, 11:31 PM
My North American Cave Weasel has run 3 cycles as well, in about the last 14 months. He is definitely gyno prone but has had great cycles with little suppression and very successful PCTs with each. One time, he didn't use Nolva or ATD, and still had a gyno-free PCT! Just fen and DHEA. Go figure.Originally Posted by WheyGood
01-13-2006, 12:06 AM
of course, the N.A. Cave Weasel is a notoriously hardy and resilient creature - almost infinitely adaptable, yet plagued by growth spurts well into maturity. Am excellent choice for the serious and creative researcher!
01-13-2006, 04:48 PM
I should also mention that Boris did not experience a drop in libido while on SD (don't ask me how I know this), and he experienced no noticeable loss of fur. I did see shedding when I put my Guinea on Winny!Originally Posted by DR.D
Aggression was somewhat heightened, as he did bite a few of the other G-Pigs in the neck just because he felt like it.
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