High ALT and ALP levels
- 12-08-2005, 04:02 PM
High ALT and ALP levels
Really not sure where to post, bue here it goes...
I recently beeing doing bloodwork, but two values liver related seem stubborn to remain high!
I'm eating since 08-2005 the same type, 3500 cals, protein 3.2grxbodywight
training heavly since september and finished the PCT in early august (08-2005) of a basic cycle (500test-500bold@12weeks)
I wanted to start another cycle in february but i wanted to have first my values in the normal ranges! I've read that some levels may be elevated because of the lifting!
since then my bloodwork is the showing: (high vaues in bold: ALT and Alkaline phosphatase)
@ 31-08-2005 (bloodwork done after I stopped gym for about 2 weeks, had been out country and impossible to workout)
AST 36 (<35)
ALT 41 (<45)
GGT 38 (<55)
ALP - no alkalin phosphatase tested
Billirubins - No tested
AST 30 (<35)
ALT 53 (<45)
GGT 43 (<55)
ALP - 139 (40-120)
Urea 54 (17-43)
Creatinin 1.08 (0.70-1.20)
AST 32 (<40)
ALT 62 (<40)
GGT 35 (7-49)
ALP - 178 (40-130)
Urea 46 (0-50)
Creatinin 0.86 (0.70-1.20)
AST 38 (<40)
ALT 89 (<40)
GGT 41 (7-49)
ALP - 189 (40-130)
Urea 54 (17-43)
Creatinin 1.08 (0.70-1.20)
should i be worried with these values or some of you get this high values too?
I know that lifting may increse ALT but not sure about ALP..
I'm goign to receive next week some exams of hpatitis types and so.. but i'm amost 99% sure i'm off any virus.
- 12-08-2005, 05:07 PM
Do you take alot of anti-inflammatories like Advil or Tylenol? Tylenol is the worse when it comes to liver issues..
12-08-2005, 05:12 PM
I could be wrong, but I think the ALT is the one that is elevated b/c of lifestyle. I was thinking about starting a thread about this, kind of like the safe cycling thread, that gets into what levels will be elevated by the bb lifestyle, but I don't have time right now.
12-08-2005, 06:25 PM
Nop not any! I usually avoid them...Originally Posted by bigpetefox
I doubt that is has anything about the cycle, since the values in later august were fine.
maybe it's from the lifting, but I'm not sure about it..
12-08-2005, 06:30 PM
12-08-2005, 06:42 PM
I forgot to mention, that measure is for KG and not for lb!Originally Posted by TheCrownedOne
for LB is 1,5gr/lb i'm using!
12-08-2005, 06:58 PM
12-08-2005, 07:33 PM
12-08-2005, 07:51 PM
12-10-2005, 01:05 PM
Unlike AST, ALT is liver specific and it can't be denied that something hepatic is going on here. The high ALP is strange and suggestive of obstruction to me. Have you ever had gall stones? How are your BM's these days, normal? Still, elevated ALP can be a result of kidney or intestinal disorders, bone disease, congestive heart failure, or hyperthyroidism too, and not necessarily a liver issue unless GGT is also elevated. Bilirubin looks OK. I am concerned that cirrhosis is present otherwise, and if not, it could be developing. If you can start using a choleretic like Dehydrocholic Acid, that would be great for now, but you need to get to a doc too and have these numbers properly tested and evaluated. The trend of a uniform increase in transaminase values means that your liver is working overtime trying to detox and something isn't letting it. If you are not using drugs or supps that could do this, then it very well could be viral and that requires months of special therapy in many cases. Keep your protein intake high and don't start any orals until this is fixed first. A low urea/creatinine ratio can indicate cirrhosis, but in your case, the ratio is OK. Urea is elevated, but creatinine is normal. Do you have any history of kidney disease?
12-10-2005, 01:33 PM
Thks for the reply D
I never had gall stones!
The BM's are just normal!
From viral sources yesterday i came with the results and they all all negative hep A,B,C Citomegalovirus...
I have no kideney disease at least as far as i know, and in family only my grandmother had gallstones, but that may meannothing!
The ALP is high but yes GGt is just normal!
I also waiting for a 5-nucleaotidase to see what does it bring, since it's more precise than GGT...
This week I'm going to a doc and i will requeste him a ultrasound too see if anythying present like steatosis, then I'll go for a tumography or biopsy! Also request meanwhile another bloodwork but with ALP isoenzimes this time and with uric acid!
I'm not using anything that SHOULD cause this, although in this moment my protein intake isn't mutch high but is JUST from powder, from micellar casein (a carberry subcompany)! I'm not thinking that it's from the protein intake itself.. but I starting to thinking that it might be just for beeing Casein or just from powder sources and not solid meals!
At this time it simplifies me and i just eat 2 solid meals, and the other ones are 6 shakes, blended with micellar, rice and water!
This should do no liver injury, but if something is going on there, is it possible that this may be the cause?
One fact is that since august i've been starting to use only micellar i used whey that months before with no problem! And it may mean nothing but it is coincidence that since i've started to use this casein that my values are climbing up! As i said it may mena nothing, and SHOULN'T probably mean since from a macro view protein are all the same but with different absortion ratios and bioavailability, but my intuition is telling me that it may be the cause...
I appreciate your reply!
12-10-2005, 02:06 PM
12-10-2005, 02:30 PM
yup, it is. and since ALT is not in pair 1:1 with AST! and also GGt is fine!Originally Posted by x_muscle
hepatithis A,B,C, HIV, Citomegalovirus and reactive c protein all came negative! I don't have any risk factor but i ordered them with my doc just for peace of mind!
12-10-2005, 08:22 PM
Your diet looks fine to me, but if you think there may be a connection, you should listen to your gut feeling. I think you'll be fine until the doc can run some more tests next week. Let me know what his conclusion is. I left my email address in the other thread, so please keep me posted here or there.
12-10-2005, 08:48 PM
I've already listened to 3 more, out of officce, lmao, altough I'll expect to my personal doc to give the final word!
first one is not used to deal with athletes and said that this could be caused by heavy exercise in some persons, but he didn't see the last exam so it could change opinion! He also said to drop a bit the protein intake!
2nd one is an old lifter doc that workout for more than 20 years, and is used to watch athletes and guys that run gear! He said that could be nonthing to worry about, but he said to take a look at the ALT levels, he was concerned too about when urea was high, but since it droped he said to ask more exams later about it and uric acid! He didn't looked mutch interested about ALP results since GGT got inside normal ranges!
He said to order a ultrasound and later start from there because this could be fatty liver due to drugs and the whole clinical story along with it!
Your opinion is also valuable, is to watch this closely! If it is are steatosis forming it may become later a cirrosis! and i want to catch this early, and since this only started about month and half ago I'm glad that i watched this closely!
In fact if i didn't repeated the bloodwork after final august (my first post-PCT bloodwork) and assumed that was everything fine, i would be now blind about this!
My personal doc got a appointment with her this week and I'm gonna see what does she say! Maybe also i make another with my endocrinologist that followed my cycles (altough she's against) she may have something to say about it!
I'll keep you updated here in the thread since it may be usufull for the other board members so they can later check out on search about liver or enzymes!
If you want I may mail you f-course!
Thks for your help bro
12-13-2005, 09:35 AM
The fact that ALT is greater than AST indicates a possible problem with the liver. If your triglyceride levels are also elevated it could indicate a fatty liver.Originally Posted by daemonium
There are basicly three types of Fatty Liver:
- Simple fatty liver is not serious and usually does not damage the liver and is not associated with any other liver abnormalities such as scarring or inflammation.
- Nonalcoholic steatohepatitis is serious and is associated with liver-damaging inflammation and, sometimes, the formation of fibrous tissue. In some cases, nonalcoholic steatohepatitis can progress to either cirrhosis, or liver cancer.
- Alcoholic steatohepatitis is serious and often progresses to cirrhosis.
A biopsy will provide an accurate diagnosis and determine the amount of damage (i.e. scarring) in the Liver. But please remember that simple Fatty Liver does not progress toward cirrhosis, or liver cancer. Doctors sometimes fail to distinguish between Nonalcoholic steatohepatitis and Simple fatty liver when discussing these things with their patients often lumping the two together. Only one of the two is serious.
12-13-2005, 10:08 AM
I'd drop all supps and see what happens. I read a fews post in the last couple years were people have the same problem and they stop the high protein or creatine intake and their liver values go back to normal. Everyone's body is not the same just because 99% of people can take x amounts of supps or hormones doesn't mean you can.
12-13-2005, 10:47 AM
The triglicerides are fine. Between the lower limit and the maximum limit.
Colestrol HDL is a bit low, but LDL is not above the limit! They are improving from the previous cycle!
Next week I will do an ultrasound, and if necessary a tumography!
A biopsy is not an option for now, too many risks envolved! That's the last option, at least for now! In presence of anything abnormal in either ultrasound or tumography, or any doubt of the diagnosis, I'll do one of course.
Taht's true... altough it sometimes shoud not be that way! Because in the past I've always had high protein intake, this time the only change was the source of it! That's why I'm gonna drop it and see what happens.
This week I'm droping my protein intake and lowered my cals a lot! Basically eating like a normal person do! This will make some muscle and stamina loss, but health is first! (I've already noticed my lack of strengh and energy in the workouts)! After this week I'll will repeat the bloodwork, although I'm sure is too soon to have some significant improvement! (If it does, the better)
I also will consider this whole month to take it low cals and not mutch protein... later i will have time to recover the muscle loss!
I also started milk thistle!
I'll keep this post updated as long as I'm not recovered!
12-13-2005, 12:35 PM
I'm currently in a very similar position.
Please not that high iron/ferritin will be consistent with fatty liver.
My blood panel results are almost identical but i'm diagnosed with non-alcoholic steatohepatitis (fatty liver).
My LDL levels are high,the HDL low but lipids are low normal.
My diet is very low in fat,grams in single digits.
Liver values were somewhat higher but decreased when my diet got more strict and eliminated all animal fats.
But alt/ast numbers after decreasing by quite a lot (60% decreasewithin 3 months) have stalled for 6 months now.
I feel my body needs some help from drugs since on its own it cannot surpass this.
The doctor seems quite patient with this but i feel i need some more aggressive treatment.At least for the cholesterol and the high alt/ast.
What kind of treatment is usually given ? I'd like to be prepared and ask for more aggressive therapy.
Statins ? Ursodeoxycholic acid ? ALA ?
12-13-2005, 12:56 PM
Those numbers are not going to hurt you. The docs want to make sure it is not another underlying problem. Some people have high numbers for no reason and live normal lives. Billirubins total is the most import number and it looks fine. If I were a betting man I would say diet or supps, personally I never had my liver values check but I can't take many supps because all of supps I tried have a bad reaction to me. Forget the supps eat a clean diet and you'll be fine, I make better gains just eating clean without supps because my body seems to work better not being over loaded with a substances. I've never made a lot of natural gains until I changed my diet to a clean diet. I eat a high calorie diet but its clean and works great.
12-13-2005, 05:28 PM
My diet is clean! for a long time it has been clean.
But takes mutch more time for me to cook chicken or egg whites or do tuna sandwiches every single day than cooking 1 kg of rice and use a blender every day to mix the cooked rice with the casein that i carry in a appropriated bottle (dunno the name in english)!
Supposedly shoud be no difference in a protein source of chicken and of casein powder, but somehow it may be doing the difference!
Altough my liver values may have nothing to do with my diet!
I found out today that i was using a balm for Athlete's foot, wich the active principle is cetoconazol and this may cause a rise in the levels BUT i just started it day 20 of october and before that i had my alt levels up too! But the cetoconazol may contributed of course!
I've dropped it! Droped my diet and doing a normal one with low everything... low cals basically!
And in a day or two I'll post what doc said.
I have consciente this values are aren't too high! The problem is that they have been rising along the weeks! And I'm with these values for about 1 month and a half and don't want more time with them high! Even less if they continue to rise...
12-14-2005, 02:07 PM
12-22-2005, 04:12 PM
After 2 weeks of light training and a diet with medium cals and low protein intake!
Stopped my trainind 3 days ago, and starverd 10 hrs, I made a ultrasound that came with everything fine and a bloodwork that came with everything fine except the usual
ALT 58 U/L (<40)
ALP 217 U/L (40-129)
ALP rised a bit since the last bloodwork and ALT lower considerably!
12-22-2005, 04:19 PM
12-22-2005, 04:59 PM
My official doc said that it could be from the cycle that I've run for some reason even not running orals, it could be diet I was running! She believed that was the whole clinical history in that piece of time! Altough I will show her this exams to see what she has to said!
My best bet is my diet.
I dunno why, but I feel that the micellar casein that I was taking and dropped this 2 weeks before this bloodwork MAY be the cause for this!
The thing is that there are too many variables, and one thing is for sure, I dropped my protein and cal intake and light exercise and the values in 2 weeks went down from 90 to 60 for the ALT (the one that I'm most concerned)!
Next week I will start another diet, but with more protein sources and leave only the casein for night! And in maybe a month later I'll repeat the bloodwork, If it lowers I'll that i can said is that i was or from the protein or from the steroids, or something around this... this is my hipothesis!
If it raises, certainly it's from my diet!
for now, I will just wait that the liver enzymes lower to normal range!
And and a bit more alleviated from everything ok from the ultrasound (although it's not 100% accurate, it only checks major problems or anything that is starting)!
This is too linear, but i have to keep it simple and try everything i can do because even my doc can't find any specific cause for pointing out and say "this is the cause - now drop it"!
I'll keep this update till i have all my values in check!
Later I'll do another cycle, injectables only and look closelly for the liver enzymes trough and after cycle, maybe they rise agin or maybe don't!
01-31-2006, 05:07 PM
01-31-2006, 07:17 PM
thks for asking!Originally Posted by Beowulf
nothing serious... I've started again my usual diet and a week ago I've tested for ALP only and it came with 64 (<40 max)
since it increased, i may assume this is somewhat related with my diet!
One of the doc, the one that is used to see guys cycling, told if the ultrasound was ok then i may relax, but just to take a look to my diet!
Well, the last week tired of all this, I started finally my cycle because I think even if i waited more months this would lead to the same results and I have waited 3 months!
1-15 bold 500mg+test500mg/week
1-4 anavar 65mg/ed
4-12 tren ace+t3
PCT 5 weeks or until LH and FSH recovered
This has a weird structure, but it's due to some aspects of my life than i cannot change and starting this later wouln't be viable!
I'm going to test my ALT enzymes often, if they had a significant change later I'll decide to stop or lower the dosages of the cycle!
01-31-2006, 07:42 PM
Better off getting your GGT done regularly if concerned about liver issues. JMO
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC
01-31-2006, 08:31 PM
I know, but some liver issues don't always come up with GGT elevated altough it's true that are rare!
You can see the older psots, i had alt 90 and ALP 190/200 and GGt were fine
as with 5-nucleotidase (that is even more specific than GGT)..
01-31-2006, 08:38 PM
Understood, but GGT is more specific than ALT.
Having an elevated ALT and Alk Phos does not mean liver lissues. There is a myriad of reasons that Alk Phos as well as ALT can be elevated that have nothing at all to do with liver issues.
I was responding to your post that stated you would test for ALT frequently and would lower doses if elevated. My point is that exercising can raise ALT levels so it might skew your results.
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC
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