GnRH Agonists SUPERIOR to HCG

[yanke10]

use of hcg stimulates the testes, preventing them from shrinking. however, it does little to maintain sperm levels and does not stimulate the pituitary gland. this is where GnRH Agonists could come it. GnRH Agonists stimulate the pituitary, which in turn stimulates the testes and causes them to produce sperm. thus, GnRH Agonists is superoir to hcg. so why is this commonly used.

for those of u who dont know what GnRH Agonists are, they act just like gnrh to receptors on the pituitary
gland. women use them to downregulate the pituitary gland by taking massive amounts of this stuff. while downregulation is bad, it can be avoided by taking small amounts.

so what do u guys think

 

[DAdams91982]

Maybe Im way off here.. BUT... Even if you stimulate a FLOOD of LH. Your testes are in no way shape or form ready for it... the hormones cause atrophy, shrinking them, and shutting down the mechinism of LH > Test. Clomid is VERY good at stimulating LH. HCG is known to PLUMP the testes back up, and ready them for the flood of LH.

This is all theory in my head, from numerous things I have read, and seen. So maybe someone with a little more knowledge in the grand scheme of things can confirm or deny my statement.

Adams

 

[yanke10]

Maybe Im way off here.. BUT... Even if you stimulate a FLOOD of LH. Your testes are in no way shape or form ready for it... the hormones cause atrophy, shrinking them, and shutting down the mechinism of LH > Test. Clomid is VERY good at stimulating LH. HCG is known to PLUMP the testes back up, and ready them for the flood of LH.

This is all theory in my head, from numerous things I have read, and seen. So maybe someone with a little more knowledge in the grand scheme of things can confirm or deny my statement.

Adams

hcg is lh and im talking about using the hcg agonist on cycle.

 

[DAdams91982]

hcg is lh and im talking about using the hcg agonist on cycle.

See.. and that is why I through in a Disclaimer. :rofl:

Adams

 

[Anarchy939]

I believe hCG acts as a massive "surge" of LH, it is not LH it itself.. It moreso mimics the effects of LH..

 

[yanke10]

I believe hCG acts as a massive "surge" of LH, it is not LH it itself.. It moreso mimics the effects of LH..

asumming this is true, then hcg would be an agonist, which is similar to many steroids. agonists attach to the receptor and cause the cells to perform normal activites that the real hormone would have caused. this is the opposite of antagonists, like clomid, which attach to the receptor but do not let the cell caryy out the normal activity.

but back to the gnrh agonists

 

[okboy63]

This is what google turned up on this.
I had never heard of this before.
from this link http://www.jansen.com.au/Dictionary_GI.html

GnRH-agonist A GnRH-analog that briefly stimulates the pituitary gland to release follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH), but then within a few days reduces these hormones to low levels (you could say that the pituitary has had a clamp put on it), stopping these hormones from competing with administered hormones -- and, particularly in women, suppressing the LH surge that otherwise can spoil the timing of egg retrieval in an assisted conception program such as IVF or GIFT. Examples include: leuprorelin(Lucrin, made by Abbott, used in Australia and Europe) or leuprolide (Lupron, made by Abbott in the US); nafarelin (Synarel, by Syntex); goserelin (Zoladex, by ICI); triptorelin (Decapeptyl, by Ipsen Biotech and used in Europe) and buserelin (Suprefact, by Hoechst, used in Europe).
GnRH-agonist A GnRH-analog that briefly stimulates the pituitary gland to release follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH), but then within a few days reduces these hormones to low levels (you could say that the pituitary has had a clamp put on it), stopping these hormones from competing with administered hormones -- and, particularly in women, suppressing the LH surge that otherwise can spoil the timing of egg retrieval in an assisted conception program such as IVF or GIFT. Examples include: leuprorelin(Lucrin, made by Abbott, used in Australia and Europe) or leuprolide (Lupron, made by Abbott in the US); nafarelin (Synarel, by Syntex); goserelin (Zoladex, by ICI); triptorelin (Decapeptyl, by Ipsen Biotech and used in Europe) and buserelin (Suprefact, by Hoechst, used in Europe).

Have you tried these drugs Yanke10 ?

 

[yanke10]

This is what google turned up on this.
I had never heard of this before.
from this link http://www.jansen.com.au/Dictionary_GI.html

GnRH-agonist A GnRH-analog that briefly stimulates the pituitary gland to release follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH), but then within a few days reduces these hormones to low levels (you could say that the pituitary has had a clamp put on it), stopping these hormones from competing with administered hormones -- and, particularly in women, suppressing the LH surge that otherwise can spoil the timing of egg retrieval in an assisted conception program such as IVF or GIFT. Examples include: leuprorelin(Lucrin, made by Abbott, used in Australia and Europe) or leuprolide (Lupron, made by Abbott in the US); nafarelin (Synarel, by Syntex); goserelin (Zoladex, by ICI); triptorelin (Decapeptyl, by Ipsen Biotech and used in Europe) and buserelin (Suprefact, by Hoechst, used in Europe).
GnRH-agonist A GnRH-analog that briefly stimulates the pituitary gland to release follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH), but then within a few days reduces these hormones to low levels (you could say that the pituitary has had a clamp put on it), stopping these hormones from competing with administered hormones -- and, particularly in women, suppressing the LH surge that otherwise can spoil the timing of egg retrieval in an assisted conception program such as IVF or GIFT. Examples include: leuprorelin(Lucrin, made by Abbott, used in Australia and Europe) or leuprolide (Lupron, made by Abbott in the US); nafarelin (Synarel, by Syntex); goserelin (Zoladex, by ICI); triptorelin (Decapeptyl, by Ipsen Biotech and used in Europe) and buserelin (Suprefact, by Hoechst, used in Europe).

Have you tried these drugs Yanke10 ?

i never tried these drugs, i just came upon them while i was writing a paper for bio. i believe the reason why they stop the pituitary gland from excreting LH and FSH after a couple days is because women take so much that it desensitizes the gland(downregulation).this is also a fear with taking to much HCG. so i was just thinking what if you take small amounts of the drug. could it stimulate ur pituitary enough.

 

[okboy63]

i never tried these drugs, i just came upon them while i was writing a paper for bio. i believe the reason why they stop the pituitary gland from excreting LH and FSH after a couple days is because women take so much that it desensitizes the gland(downregulation).this is also a fear with taking to much HCG. so i was just thinking what if you take small amounts of the drug. could it stimulate ur pituitary enough.

These must be very new. It would be interesting to hear Dr D and others on this topic.
Is it possible to get this as a research chemical ?

 

[yanke10]

These must be very new. It would be interesting to hear Dr D and others on this topic.
Is it possible to get this as a research chemical ?

i would like to hear their input too. current prescription gnrh agonists are lupron, synarel, busrelin. the only way to get this as a research chemical is we make the potential demand high enough, so lets do some more research

 

[yanke10]

bumpin

 

[same_old]

what's wrong with HCG? does the same thing and it's readily available, well-tested and clinically tried and works.

 

[velikimajmun]

i never tried these drugs, i just came upon them while i was writing a paper for bio. i believe the reason why they stop the pituitary gland from excreting LH and FSH after a couple days is because women take so much that it desensitizes the gland(downregulation).this is also a fear with taking to much HCG. so i was just thinking what if you take small amounts of the drug. could it stimulate ur pituitary enough.

The fear with taking high doses of HCG is that it is toxic to leydig cells. I'll confirm what has been said that it mimicks the action of LH on the testes and is not LH itself. The reason to take small amounts of HCG every week on cycle is to keep the testicles sensitized to LH as LH rebounds quickly but due to testiclular atrophy and desensitization testosterone production is the limiting step in recovery. Thus HCG.

 

[Beowulf]

I think the difference yanke is stating is that HCG is instead of LH, whereas Gnrh stimulates the release of LH, therefore allowing the body to do what the HCG prevents it from doing.

 

[yanke10]

I think the difference yanke is stating is that HCG is instead of LH, whereas Gnrh stimulates the release of LH, therefore allowing the body to do what the HCG prevents it from doing.

not only that, but it will also keep you from becoming infertile and will keep the pituitary from degerating because of inactivity.

 

[daemonium]

Been looking at this for some time, I'm glad I'm not the only one!
I've read some articles about this, but i need to read a lot more.

The problem is this stuff is expensive and we dunno were the doses range at for effectiveness for us! So it may require a lot of expensive daily doses, making it impraticable for this purpose! Most of us will just wait for the htpa axis to recover besides of paying that price!

and IMO i think it's a lot more usefull when it comes to start the PCT, since you want the soon as possible the LH and FSH beeing released!
If this stuff really works without later acting as an antagonist (with large doses or long term administration) i think it may be a lot usuefull since it will make us recover the production of Lh and FSH faster, thus a PCT a LOT more effective, because that's the point of the PCT!

 

[DAdams91982]

See I dont see the point though... LH rebounds VERY quickly... its the atrophy of the testes that is the problem... stimulating the pituitary isnt going to really help anything, for it rebounds in such a short period.

Adams

 

[CEDeoudes59]

however, it does little to maintain sperm levels

this is incorrect my friend.

Gonadotropin Therapy for Induction of Spermatogenesis

Male patients with onset of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism before completion of pubertal development may have testes smaller than 5 mL. These patients usually require therapy with both hCG and human menopausal gonadotropin (or FSH) to induce spermatogenesis. Men with partial gonadotropin deficiency, or who have previously (peripubertally) been stimulated with hCG, may initiate and maintain production of sperm with HCG only. Men with postpubertal-acquired hypogonadotropic hypogonadism and who have previously had normal production of sperm can also generally initiate and maintain production of sperm with hCG therapy only. Fertility may be possible at sperm counts much lower than what would otherwise be considered fertile. Counts of less than 1 million/mL may be associated with pregnancies under these circumstances. It is imperative that the female partner undergo assessment for optimal fertility before or concurrently with consideration of therapy in the man.

cite: http://www.guideline.gov/summary/summary.aspx?ss=15&doc_id=3524&nbr=2750

 

[CEDeoudes59]

more info:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/anabolics/36034-good-news-we-arent-going-sterile-ever-3-super-short-studies.html?highlight=sterile+ever

 

[daemonium]

See I dont see the point though... LH rebounds VERY quickly... its the atrophy of the testes that is the problem... stimulating the pituitary isnt going to really help anything, for it rebounds in such a short period.

Adams

If you use hCG trough the cycle you are preventing the testes to atrophy and are also stimulating sperm production!

If hcg trough the cycle isn't used then you may be correct, but assuming that in final cycle testes are ok, then your job is getting LH and FSH in the range! And from my experience they usually stay low for +- 8 weeks, and with PCT with nolva in the midle and hCG trough cycle!

The GnRH agonist could not do mutch for this or it could do! As for me the culprit is the price since and since i use homebrew everything seems expensive to me.
Maybe one of these cycle i'll try it low dose to see if it really worths or not!

 

[DAdams91982]

If you use hCG trough the cycle you are preventing the testes to atrophy and are also stimulating sperm production!

If hcg trough the cycle isn't used then you may be correct, but assuming that in final cycle testes are ok, then your job is getting LH and FSH in the range! And from my experience they usually stay low for +- 8 weeks, and with PCT with nolva in the midle and hCG trough cycle!

The GnRH agonist could not do mutch for this or it could do! As for me the culprit is the price since and since i use homebrew everything seems expensive to me.
Maybe one of these cycle i'll try it low dose to see if it really worths or not!

Maybe I should have emphaised certain things in my post... I was trying to say GnRH would be pointless. To just run HCG through cycle. After cycle LH and FSH rebound very quickly (Though some may not feel like it does), when your hormones are no longer at superphysiological (sp?) levels, The pituitary starts squirting fast. But is kinda useless since testes are atrophied, and desisitized.

Stick with tried and true hCG, run it low dose through cycle, and you will never go wrong.

Adams

 

[daemonium]

The prob was mine since i'm only pointing to the use of GnRH JUST in the PCT!
during cycle hcg will do and the htpa will always(or almost) recover!
After cycle i disagree with you when you say they recover quickly, well considering that 8 weeks is long of course! If you assume 8 weeks is short i must agree.
And yes, i'm talking after the active -life if the last injection!

I usually do a lot of bloodwork before cycle and have some proof that they usually take 6-10 weeks to recover or even more!
They will recover yes, but not very fast!

here it is,
-6 weeks AFTER the active-life of a long ester have come to near physiological ranges the levels of LH <0.1mUI/ml, and FSH 0.29 mUI/ml
-3 weeks later that, LH 1.47 mUI/ml and FSH 2.51 mUI/ml
-another 3 weeks after that, LH was 3.1 mUI/ml and FSH was 3.4 mUI/ml

To remember, totally it took 14 weeks after last inject og long ester gear (test E) and i think they will rise a bit more since i have them a bit more elevated!

so as you can see it's not so fast, and this isn't a study, this was my bloodwork! Altough of course I can take a bit longer to recover than everyone else, but generally speaking it will not be mutch more quicker than this!

I also run hCG every 3 day at 250ui on cycle, and the lat cycle (the on of this bloodwork was a basic cycle of Test E 500 and Bold Un 500, proviron and nothing else! 12weeks for bold and 13 for test! So it's wasn't a very supressive cycle.

I do agree with you that hCG must be used in cycle! And if hCG is used the testes almost do not atrophy! And GnRh during cycle may be a bad choice because in my ponint of view hcg IN cycle would be better!

I do not agree mutch when you say that LH and FSH are quickly recovered... well, I think 3 months and half is a bit in this case!

Although i think GnRH MAY HAVE it's part when it comes to recover more quickly the Lh and FSH! It could help in the quick response of the pituary to the releasing of the FSH and LH, and his could help recovering faster!

 

[CEDeoudes59]

If you use hCG trough the cycle you are preventing the testes to atrophy and are also stimulating sperm production!

correct. It maintains all testicular function via an external source (HCG).

 

[woolfy]

GnRH Agonists

I have managed to find one called Gonadorelin which can be taken at high doses and does not have the same down regulation affects as the other drugs you mentioned.

In theory it would make sense to use this during PCT, but only when testicles are brought back to normal size using HCG. The problem is that Gonadorelin is very difficult to obtain without prescription and is currently on backorder in the states.

There have been a few cases of patients with hypogonadism who where treated successfully with LHRH injections, which is another term for GnRH. However, try getting your GP to give you drugs they've never used is another thing. There more likely to put you on HRT because its what they know.

 

[daemonium]

the major problem is to figure out proper dosages... and if high daily dosages are required, even for like 10 days, this becomes too expensive!

 

[Mr.50]

Guys while all of this is interesting I am wondering if anyone has heard of any plans to market a "sterile oral" version of HCG or GnRH. The last time I tried to locate some HCG I couldn't and it was truely a pain in the ass. I could have ordered it off of the net I guess but I was not in the mood to get another customs letter. One in a lifetime is enough.


Mr.50

 

[Syr]

I searched for this stuff a few months ago. Tomorrow I'll find out my references and the current products available. Anyway the conclusions i came were that Gonadorelin is a viable alternative to HCG.