Lets cut through the **** here: opinions on best gear for long terms gains
- 11-17-2005, 11:08 PM
Lets cut through the **** here: opinions on best gear for long terms gains
I haven't been on the boards in months. Hell, its been longer than that. I am running three business and dont have much time to hit up AM anymore (sad to say). For those of you who dont know me (and **** I know next to no one on here these days), I am a vet and have been around there parts for a number of years now. Start Soapbox:
I am tired of supplement companies. Seriously, all of them can go to hell. I am tired of hearing the gains that people get off a cycle with no data on that same cycle months down the road --- it's as if these people who supposedly gain 30 pounds in 3 weeks never mention the fact that 2 months later that they lost all of their gains. I admit that I used to be one of these posters. I was one of the first people to test out M1T (15 pounds in 12 days at 20 mg). And was the first person to test 1-AD for PA back in the day (15 pounds in 14 days at 900 mg/day). Point being, hell yeah, on the gas I had sweet gains. When I came off, two months later, back to same old me --- even with an increase in cals.
Anyway, the bottom line is that I would like to hear from someone with data on cycles of **** long term here. I could give a **** what the gains are like on --- and most of you shouldn't give a **** either. Who cares if you gained 70 pounds in one week on something --- all that matters, for most of us (unless you wanna be on gear your whole life), is what the gains were like when they came off --- what gains remained. My best gains, to date, have been with rebound xt for me. Puts about 1 rep on my 4 rep max everytime I use it. And the gains stick.
What gear, legel or illegal, in your opinion, has yielded teh best long term gains. I am talking 2-3 months after the cycle has stopped.
Current stats for those who give a **** and know me:
5'5'', 190 pounds. 12% bf. Bench 405 for 5, squat 405 for 12, military 315 for 4, incline 365 for 4.
Please tell me someone can help my ignorant ass..please dont respond unless you have an educated opinion to render....
its good to be back...
- 11-17-2005, 11:37 PM
- 11-17-2005, 11:39 PM
11-17-2005, 11:40 PM
not to avoid your intended topic but what you keep depends on more than what you took during cycle. diet, rest, decreased volume in training for a few weeks, serms and supps taken during PCT, etc.
fwiw, my best to date is what i'm on currently. testenan/eq/growth.
11-17-2005, 11:56 PM
The classic test/tren....with winny to end. Use letro and hcg throughout, usual PCT arsenal and run the cycle for 8-10 weeks (tren 6-8). People seem to think that these harsh androgenic gear like tren makes you look amazing when on but then leave you shutdown and have you crash and burn. Ive been more supressed by t1pro, mdien, m1t than any of the tried and true.
Truth of the matter is, if you make significant gains from test/tren while on, and stay on for a moderate amount of time....your gains start to stick as your body adjusts to the new size. I think people who try the yoyo short cycles are just wishful thinking. At least for me, shutdown is shutdown...whether its from 3 weeks on or 8.
11-18-2005, 12:03 AM
So long term, test/tren then? I know about pct and all that. I am not trying to avoid that whole issue. Of course, that is the biggest player in all of it if you keep your gains --- at least at the start of it. My question really comes into play 2 months later. Even with test/tren did you manage to keep your gains that long out (assuming stellar pct)?Originally Posted by Scottyo
11-18-2005, 12:06 AM
11-18-2005, 12:46 AM
straight test prop for 7 weeks was my best cycle ever. i ran 1cc@100mg/ml QD with HCG ran weeks 2-8 and idex run @ .5mg QD also for the duration.
the key to keeping my gains was intensity during my workouts after i had completed PCT. like you, the yo-yo weight gain that i had experienced was due to psyhcological factors as much as physiological.
anyhow, my .02
11-18-2005, 12:59 AM
steroid arent that bad right? i mean some are worse than others...some dont have as many sideeffect.... how do you know which ones are the good ones or bad ones? like andro ro something? im kinda a slender guy, ive gotten strong as **** but i dont put on any size or mass. any advice or info
11-18-2005, 01:22 AM
depends on your goalsOriginally Posted by shaggy
personally, I find winny on its own will stick with you no matter what, I have vascularity from winny-only cycles that is still with me today.
Tren is utterly fantastic. I don't run it with test because I feel its a more potent fat burner in the absence of estrogen (which test aromatizes into). I run it only 4 weeks, parabolan (for human use, 4 day half life, 100mg/ml) at 75-100 ml EOD - shutdown isn't too bad, especially with HCG in the end, libido stays in check with some proviron, but frankly I find freedom from women a welcome relief and don't mind shutting down.
Dbol is probably one of the greatest while you're on but nothing sticks when you're off. Test is solid, but you really have to nail your PCT and you WILL lose some in the end.
I find no matter what I use, if I bridge with IGF-1 I tend to keep the gains better.
11-18-2005, 09:10 AM
i remember you lakevillethor .. he's one strong mother****er
personally in terms of getting the best quality gains that you'll keep the most muscle of either test/tren or high dose test (1g or more)
11-18-2005, 12:27 PM
what pct did you run with trest/tren? And for how long? What dosages for the cycle...This seems to be the most approved of cycle for long term gains. Again, I am talking months out here. Can anyone actually confirm these gains like 2-3 months out?Originally Posted by glenihan
11-18-2005, 12:32 PM
You might also want to include some OT-1 & Lean Xtreme for PCT and between cycles, use HCG during cycle too. I haven't had the pleasure of Test/Tren yet but I'm doing high dose 1-Test and Test and loving it
11-18-2005, 12:56 PM
In terms of keeping your hard earned gains I would think adding growth and lr3igf-1 to the mix would definately make these gains more attainable. Especially the lr3igf-1.
11-18-2005, 03:09 PM
LAKEVILL...you and I should start training together, we only live about an hour apart!
Like you, I've been doing AAS for some time now. First cycle was tren about 10 years ago. We knew nothing about it. We'd just chop up the pellets with a razor and start snorting away. Did that for about 6 months. No idea how much we were actually getting into our systems, but it must have been enough! I was at 200 lbs when we started it and ended at 240. After I quit that tren I was clean for a couple years and only went back down to 230 lbs. Even with a mediocre diet and lifting program, most of the gains stuck.
Just started a new tren cycle TODAY with the cyclodextrin for nasal delivery. Burns like a mother but only for about 5 minutes and not any worse than how we used to do it. The tren by itself worked great years ago, so I'm looking forward to some good gains coming up. I will play it month to month for now, if I'm not seeing any sides (didn't before), I'll stay on for a while.
As of today: 229 lbs @ 6'2", bench 315x5, bf about ~10%
11-18-2005, 03:47 PM
11-18-2005, 04:05 PM
one more vote for test/tren with hcg throughout. best gains ever and strength and size just about the same months later. I think diet is still the most important factor no matter what the cycle.
11-18-2005, 04:30 PM
11-18-2005, 05:21 PM
By the look of your current stats it seems that you are probibly close to your genetic limit. with anything you use you will eventually shrink back down to your former size. In order to stay bigger you would probibly have to gass way past where you are now then start another cycle when you start shrinking too much.
11-18-2005, 05:35 PM
week 1-10 test cyp 750mg/wkOriginally Posted by Lakevillethor
week 1-7 tren ace 100mg/eod
week 1-10 hcg 500iu/wk
11-18-2005, 06:15 PM
11-18-2005, 06:28 PM
Hm... Someone who is 5'5" and a genetic limit of 190lbs would be able to reach that level naturally. I doubt it. Not that it's impossible, but 190 on 5'5" naturally would be pretty freaky IMO.
No matter, use IGF-1 to create more myocites and you can grow more and more. Just keep the dosage low enough to grow muscle instead of guts and you'll be able to put quite a few lbs over time IMO.
11-18-2005, 07:10 PM
Okay. Really I am 5'5'' and 3/4. And I have reached this with really only 2 cycles of ****. Natually I got up to 180. Maybe 10 pounds, if that, is from use of gear...Originally Posted by Grunt76
11-18-2005, 09:04 PM
Personally I have had big problems with keeping my gains in the past. I think rebound/LX(or some other cortisol supp)/activate is a HUGE step forward in PCT. I am on 4th week of PCT from a 4 week Superdrol cycle right now. I had to take a week off in PCT due to sickness, and not only have I maintained gains, I have made a little more progress as well. That is rare for me.
I am a huge fan of short cycles. Theyve always seemed to work better for me. I am reading "Building the perfect beast" by Author L. Rea, and I cannot recommend it enough. I believe he has some really great info.
I will be running my cycles short 21-30 days layered with PCT (estrogen/cortisol suppression + Activate) from now on. Working with the bodys action/reaction factors, and avoiding the negative feedback loops which I believe are the largest factors in keeping or making new gains on and off cycle. I always gain the most in the first 4 weeks/6 weeks max and the body (Mine at least) really seems to hold gains better this way.
11-18-2005, 10:01 PM
test/tren gives the greatest long term gains. actually its the tren but you can't run it without test IMHO. i remember a study once that showed tren caused hyperplasia.Originally Posted by Scottyo
I personally wouldn't run any AI's on cycle. whenever i ran a test/tren cycle with AI's I felt the side effects of the tren more - night sweats, anxiety, etc. don't know if its just me. if you can't get your hands on HCG, clomid and an AI always worked well for me for PCT. As far as cycle length that's a persoanl preference. I have run 2 weeks on, two weeks off, two weeks PCT concurently for 8 months and made excelent gains. When I went completely off after my last PCT my endogenous T and FT levels were higher than they were before I started the cycles. I also never felt the on/off loss in strength. I made my best strength gains that year and they stayed with me.
11-19-2005, 10:36 AM
Interesting study done in rats.
The biggest things mentioned were the "decreased protein catabolism after tren treatment caused by an induced decrease in the binding of glucocorticoids in skeletal muscle by tren, which would reduce the glucocorticoid-dependant catabolism of muscle receptors"
Also: Lysine and arginine stores were found to be depleted in the tren treated rats...no explanation I could figure out.
So...should we bump up the lysine and arginine when on tren??
11-19-2005, 10:40 AM
11-19-2005, 10:42 AM
11-20-2005, 10:11 AM
Sorry for the late response. Yes, long term test/tren is the most effective and will cause the most noticeable and lasting body changes. One always loses at least some aspect of their gains (at least when near or above your genetic limit), whether it is a slight strength loss or a few lbs of water from the gear. Still, I have managed to retain almost all of my muscle mass post cycle....and that means not just 2 or 3 months but 4-5+ months down the line. I think hcg during cycle is a key, often missed part of the pct regimen, so that is the only PCT advice Id make sure you got in check (since you seem to have the rest in line).Originally Posted by Lakevillethor
Dosing I like
test e 1-8 500-750mg depending on your size and experience. 500 can usually be enough.
tren 1-7 150mg EOD or 75mg ed. Some say you can go lower which is definetly true for many people, but I like the tren to be the emphasis of my cycle with the test in some sense secondary.
winny 6-10 50mg a day.
Favorite cycle right there. Fairly cheap and very effective.
11-20-2005, 11:26 AM
Look into GH - I've never used, but if you truly want to change the 'genetic' ceiling. GH, year round, is probably the way. Rotate cycles in.Originally Posted by Lakevillethor
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11-20-2005, 03:33 PM
im surprised no one said primo? youre not going to make yourself a mass monster on it but youll keep the gains with ease
11-20-2005, 04:45 PM
11-20-2005, 07:39 PM
Tren worked absolutely fine for me without test. Everyone says you can't run tren without test but I had no problems and I know people who've done it as well who had no problems.Originally Posted by triceptor
75mg tren depot EOD for 4 weeks
absolutely fantastic gains, they stuck with me, no sides. Took my 25mg proviron every day and was horny as hell (though I don't mind the freedom from women that shutting down gives you, but the blueballs hurt).
Tren is more effective as a fat burner in the absence of estrogen - hence, test actually inhibits tren's fat burning properties when it aromatizes, but it enhances the muscle building properties.
To me, the body recomposition of tren alone is fantastic.
I'm dying to run IGF with tren . . . I've done both alone and I'd imagine together it would be like changing your genetics.
11-20-2005, 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by SecretOfSteel
This is pretty interesting as I don't like long cycles or alot of bloat. What sides did you notice..any lethargy or such...also what were your gains and what did you run for pct?
11-22-2005, 04:22 PM
If you are looking for gains that stick without being on and off of gear your whole life, maybe you should look at supps which will maximise your natural testosterone production, and improve other aspects of muscle building, decrease cortisol ect... if things like rebound xt work for you try a few others and go with it. Some people have prolonged test suppression from high dosed gear use, and may never get their natural test levels as high as they once were. You cold also look in to things such as GH and IGF as others have said, slin would be a good addition as well if you know how to use it. If you want to focus on maintaining the mass you gain then you could use non-aromatizing steroids that don't cause much suppression for short periods... to help the GH and others do their job. I know a very big boy that cycles on and off gas usually 1-2x per year 10-12weeks and at fairly low doses (750-1000mg)compared to what some others use, yet stays large and lean all year round because he uses GH, has an excellent diet, and trains apropriatly. Last year he got low on funds and didn't do any gas or growth for about a year and shrunk down a lot, yet he was still really strong.Originally Posted by Lakevillethor
12-01-2005, 03:28 PM
12-01-2005, 04:14 PM
Great post with some solid points. IMO its not worth putting your body through the stress if your not going to be keeping 60% of your gains after you get back to your natty state. The best cycle for me was 1-AD and Nor-Doil it changed my body forever put on muscle that never went away even if I stop training I look better then I did before, it was a long cycle and after that I never did another long cycle. Looks like long cycles are winning the debate.
12-01-2005, 07:35 PM
Winstrol & Anavar are the easiest for me to maintain after the cycle is over.You could always start with Tren and Prop & then switch to Anavar or Winny to finish up.
IMO long Test cycles always seem to end badly for most people.
12-01-2005, 08:46 PM
12-02-2005, 12:00 AM
most easily keepable (which i consider qualifies as best long term use) would be winny, tren, var. My top three of choice.
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