SD blood work / liver values concern me

[jcam222]

I had done a three week cycle of superdrol about 6 months ago. 30mg a day . Standard protects..ie ltylers liver, milk thistle, ryr, coq10 , rala etc About a month post cycle my values were
AST - 34 , 0 - 40 range
ALT - 44 , 0 - 40 range
HDL - 41 , 40 - 59
LDL - 60

not bad I think for month out from the cycle? HDL prior was 66 and LDL was 88, I think my HRT (normal dosed androgel) would tend to bring both down slightly as well.

Anyway after that I decided I would do another cycle recently. DIdnt seem to react to badly to it. I added MOHN since I had heard it very mild I did 32mg MOHN per day first 2 weeks. week three I did 32 mg MOHN and 10 mg SD , weeks 4 5 and 6 I did 30 mg SD a day. I did stretch this out a bit I guess but based on my previous results I thought it should be ok..


OK here are the results drawn just shy of 2 weeks post cycle.

AST - 49 range 0 - 40
ALT 76 range 0 - 55
HDL 28 - range 40 to 59
LDL 66 range 0 - 99

ratio now 2.4 instead of 1.5

So I am a bit freaked out on the liver values and the HDL . Any advice appreciated. I do know my hrt doc is going to freak out when he sees these and I cant tell him about the methyls. I will have to mention the methyl prednisone I took a week prior to that cycle for achilles, tyeleno something lol ....ths ECW wrestlers liver thing really has me freaked out now.

 

[jonny21]

Relax, elevations of these enzymes are typical & consistent with heavy resistance training. Neither is an exclusive liver enzyme. They are found throughout the body and are released during cellular damage ie. heart attack, weight lifting.

 

[Dungeon1]

That is elevated, but not terribly so. How long ago did you stop the methyls?

 

[B5150]

What did you use for PCT?
SERM's can cause elevated liver values.

 

[jcam222]

I rarely use anything for PCT as I have been on HRT for over a year. I use androgel. I dont use any E control as its never been necessary. I do usually get bloodwork right after to determine e levels though.

I had been off almost two weeks at time of the blood draw. I dont really seem to show any issues i.e discooration or anyhting. I did seem to have discolored and less than solid feces for the last couple of weeks of cycle . That lasted another week and seems to be gone....any other facts I can provide I woiuld be glad to.

I also show a slightly elevated RDW. numbers escape me for the moment I can post tomorrow.

 

[lifted]

This is why it is not wise to stack methyls. I still don't understand why people do it. Why do these results seem unnusual to you? What did you expect? Not trying to be an ass (although IMO stacking orals is VERY irresponsible) but c'mon, that is what happens bud. Keeep taking your liver pro's and anti-ox's, and get bloodwork again in another month or 2.

 

[bioman]

Personally, I'd worry more about that HDL number than the liver values. Liver numbers are not all that bad and could be the result of having worked out recently, a Tylenol, a stiff drink or two. If they stay conistently elevated then maybe start to worry. It's when they spike 2,3,4 or more times the normal values that you know you're getting acute toxicity.

Takes some KR-ALA to help lower the values.

 

[jcam222]

I am taking milk thistle, k-rala, rebound, fenotest, lean xtreme and fish oils now. Hopefully things come back down soon. I had taken some tylenol PMs the week before the draw a few times so that could have contributed I suppose.

I am quite a bit foggier on getting the HDL up so will have to do some searching. I think I rmemeber a nice thread from CEDeoudes59

Lifted - I normally dont stack methyls. I had read so much about how mild MOHN was on liver that I felt it wasnt an issue. In addition on the overlap week the overall dose of methyls was not that high I felt. This blood result obviously has me questioning my thoughts in retrospect.


I am thinking that in the future im or transdermals are a safer bet for me.

 

[-2z-]

Keep us up to date on how things go for ya. I'm sure you'll regulate in a month or so.

 

[texas]

This is why it is not wise to stack methyls. I still don't understand why people do it. Why do these results seem unnusual to you? What did you expect? Not trying to be an ass (although IMO stacking orals is VERY irresponsible) but c'mon, that is what happens bud. Keeep taking your liver pro's and anti-ox's, and get bloodwork again in another month or 2.

i also think stacking 2 methyls is a bad idea, but does anyone know why legal gear says to stack masterdrol and m1p, i emailed them and they said that m1p is a mild methyl and that it is safe, should i trust them?

 

[poopypants]

Lifted - I normally dont stack methyls. I had read so much about how mild MOHN was on liver that I felt it wasnt an issue. In addition on the overlap week the overall dose of methyls was not that high I felt. This blood result obviously has me questioning my thoughts in retrospect.

its true that MOHN can be more mild but you never know what kind of drug interaction youll get from stacking 2 methyls at once, sometimes one might amplify the negetive effects of the other at an exponential rate not an added rate, meaning even if on your overlapping days dosage all together may have been low its negetive effects could be multiplied higher then one or the other at the same dosage. its just wise not to stack them whatsoever.

 

[poopypants]

i also think stacking 2 methyls is a bad idea, but does anyone know why legal gear says to stack masterdrol and m1p, i emailed them and they said that m1p is a mild methyl and that it is safe, should i trust them?

id lay off on that man maybe run a 3 of one 3 of another type of cycle but not at the same time... as much as i dont like to badmouth any company i think they do this because they just want to sell more stuff and could care less about what happens.

 

[lifted]

Yeah, don't listen to LG, they're a joke. Stacking orals is a bad idea period. If you want to stack, then either go the dermal route or man-up and start injecting the real deal. I don't see much of a problem with using a non-methyl oral stacked with a methyl, but try not to make a habit of it. Remember, just because a said oral isn't methylated, it can still cause the liver, etc. stress.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

Personally, I'd worry more about that HDL number than the liver values. Liver numbers are not all that bad and could be the result of having worked out recently, a Tylenol, a stiff drink or two. If they stay conistently elevated then maybe start to worry. It's when they spike 2,3,4 or more times the normal values that you know you're getting acute toxicity.

Takes some KR-ALA to help lower the values.

bioman is the expert, but i've been the resident ginuea pig... he is absolutely right. KR-ALA is great stuff - if you're really worried (which you shouldn't be) run down to the grocery store and pick up some ALA or Milk Thistle. Finish the bottle over 30days. You'll be fine...

but also, check on that HDL value. It probably hasn't reached 40+ because you didn't take any Nolva or Clomid. But it also could be your HRT dose (too high?). Judging by your initial bloodwork - your HRT dose is fine... Policosanol is a cheap way to clear this up. oh and diet... avoid junk food

:burger: :burger:

 

[CEDeoudes59]

Lifted - I normally dont stack methyls. I had read so much about how mild MOHN was on liver that I felt it wasnt an issue. In addition on the overlap week the overall dose of methyls was not that high I felt. This blood result obviously has me questioning my thoughts in retrospect.

I am thinking that in the future im or transdermals are a safer bet for me.

don't sweat it - if you were to have liver failure it would probably already have happened [on cycle] just make an effort to restore the values (i'm sure they already come down regardless).

and take it a step further next time, injectables and no orals.

only legal stuff of course :hammer:

 

[CEDeoudes59]

I think I rmemeber a nice thread from CEDeoudes59

i'm a lipid legend... on BB.com they always reference that thread. A healthy diet and a couple of supplements will nearly fully restore it in 4 weeks

 

[motiv8er]

i'm a lipid legend... CED LOLOLOL

I only hope to be known as the Mr. Fiber Fantastic one day myself!

 

[DR.D]

It's OK. I wouldn't worry until it hits 100-120. That's when I consider counter measures or dose reduction. Just keep on with the protectants. T3 will lower your chol too so remember those numbers can look abnormally low (HDL & LDL). You can tell your doc you slammed half a bottle of cough syrup the day before the test because you thought you were getting sick. He won't think twice about it.

 

[jcam222]

Yes I was taking t3 the last couple of weeks as well. I didnt realize it impacted the cholesterol. I found it interesting on mine that while the HDL was reduced the LDL didnt really increaes at all staying around 60.

 

[TripDog]

I had done a three week cycle of superdrol about 6 months ago. 30mg a day . Standard protects..ie ltylers liver, milk thistle, ryr, coq10 , rala etc About a month post cycle my values were
AST - 34 , 0 - 40 range
ALT - 44 , 0 - 40 range
HDL - 41 , 40 - 59
LDL - 60

not bad I think for month out from the cycle? HDL prior was 66 and LDL was 88, I think my HRT (normal dosed androgel) would tend to bring both down slightly as well.

Anyway after that I decided I would do another cycle recently. DIdnt seem to react to badly to it. I added MOHN since I had heard it very mild I did 32mg MOHN per day first 2 weeks. week three I did 32 mg MOHN and 10 mg SD , weeks 4 5 and 6 I did 30 mg SD a day. I did stretch this out a bit I guess but based on my previous results I thought it should be ok..


OK here are the results drawn just shy of 2 weeks post cycle.

AST - 49 range 0 - 40
ALT 76 range 0 - 55
HDL 28 - range 40 to 59
LDL 66 range 0 - 99

ratio now 2.4 instead of 1.5

So I am a bit freaked out on the liver values and the HDL . Any advice appreciated. I do know my hrt doc is going to freak out when he sees these and I cant tell him about the methyls. I will have to mention the methyl prednisone I took a week prior to that cycle for achilles, tyeleno something lol ....ths ECW wrestlers liver thing really has me freaked out now.

Bump for Superdrol bloodwork numbers

 

[poopypants]

Bump for Superdrol bloodwork numbers

LOL i cant belive i still had this in my sub folder... thanks alot trip.. got an answer for you...

SH!TTTTAY!

lol.

really though i think most guys who got bad numbers were guys who didnt take enough precations, superdrol and M1T and Abombs should not be taken lightly. front load milk thistle and NAC for two weeks prior and throughout, take an AI if necessary, dose only in mornings if possible to avoid night time test production interference (tough with Abombs since half life is 16 hours, and it may be similar for the other 2 as well).... well you know all this.

I think the ones that ame back good were guys who didnt get over zealous since the gains didnt come on early stuck to the rec dosage and reaped the benifits weeks 3 and 4 then had a good clean getaway cause of it. other guys all taking 30-45mg are just crazy, Dr D said the optimal dosage for SD is 25mg/ED and thats why the ORIGINAL Designer Supplements (thats right befroe AX) SD was 12.5 mg pills taken in two doses, not 10mg pills guys are thinking they need to take 20mg 2 times ed.

blood is still good to see so anyone have any?

 

[TripDog]

LOL i cant belive i still had this in my sub folder... thanks alot trip.. got an answer for you...

SH!TTTTAY!

lol.

really though i think most guys who got bad numbers were guys who didnt take enough precations, superdrol and M1T and Abombs should not be taken lightly. front load milk thistle and NAC for two weeks prior and throughout, take an AI if necessary, dose only in mornings if possible to avoid night time test production interference (tough with Abombs since half life is 16 hours, and it may be similar for the other 2 as well).... well you know all this.

I think the ones that ame back good were guys who didnt get over zealous since the gains didnt come on early stuck to the rec dosage and reaped the benifits weeks 3 and 4 then had a good clean getaway cause of it. other guys all taking 30-45mg are just crazy, Dr D said the optimal dosage for superdrol is 25mg/ED and thats why the ORIGINAL Designer Supplements (thats right befroe AX) SD was 12.5 mg pills taken in two doses, not 10mg pills guys are thinking they need to take 20mg 2 times ed.

blood is still good to see so anyone have any?

I just thought it was good to see blood work posted for people to see.

 

[poopypants]

I just thought it was good to see blood work posted for people to see.

agreed.

 

[jonny21]

I just thought it was good to see blood work posted for people to see.

Yeah, it has become urban legend that superdrol was extremely liver toxic. Back when it first came out B5150 did a log with lab values and it showed practically no evidence of liver toxicity as relates to elevated LFT's

 

[B5150]

http://images-cdn.anabolicminds.com/image404.jpg

I think this was post (I'll see if I can find my folder at my home desktop later today) and I used nothing but NAC and ALA.

 

[jonny21]

http://images-cdn.anabolicminds.com/image404.jpg

I think this was post (I'll see if I can find my folder at my home desktop later today) and I used nothing but NAC and ALA.

It does do significant damage to lipid panel though. It knocked my HDL from mid 50's to the mid 20's. But it was only temporary, 6 months later i was back to mid 50's. Might have been sooner but i did not have follow-up labs drawn for 6 months.

 

[B5150]

Yes, lipids do take a hit (see report), but with a healthy diet and quality supplemantation mine bounced back in no time.

 

[B5150]

http://images-cdn.anabolicminds.com/image404.jpg

I think this was post (I'll see if I can find my folder at my home desktop later today) and I used nothing but NAC and ALA.

Found some data I extrapolated from my 'on' bloodwork from a tester journal I kept at M&M

Liver:
item......pre.......on*
AST......23.........22
ALT......30.........31
GGT......24.........20

Liver support:
ALA:600mg, NAC:1800mg

* indicates on at 50mg

 

[jonny21]

Found some data I extrapolated from my 'on' bloodwork from a tester journal I kept at M&M

geez, @ 50mg/day, kind of shoots holes in the whole deadly liver toxicity legend.

 

[PhilABowl]

My total cholesterol without having ever done a cycle was 263, with a totally rad 190 on the LDL front - I can't speak to the liver stuff because I don't know about it, but your cholesterol values are fine. Higher HDL is good, and important, but your LDL is so low I wouldn't sweat it.

I just genetically have high cholesterol even though I have a very low cholesterol diet. I am now on a prescription statin for it, so it should take care of that. As long as your total cholesterol is under 200 and your LDLs stay so low I wouldn't sweat the cholesterol portion.

Apologies but I know zilch about liver enzymes, but these other guys seem to know what they're talking about.

 

[TripDog]

geez, @ 50mg/day, kind of shoots holes in the whole deadly liver toxicity legend.

It's a very person specific thing, I have seen some rather disturbing blood tests of people with trashed liver/lipid values for months after stopping. It's hard to judge how people will respond , as things like outside stressors(alcohol,poor diet,other medications,other orals,any support supps, prior blood levels) are probably not being included in their posts..............

Personally I think this stuff is best used in a pulse with test.

 

[B5150]

In the scenario you discribe it is not a person specific thing but a substance(s) specific thing. Had I used drugs and alcohol with it I imagine that I would have liver values that are skewed and not necessarily representative of superdrol toxicity.

These people claiming superdrol as the culprit and presenting data to represent it and not reporting their alternate substance abuse are then perpetuating the urban legend by failure to disclose.

 

[poopypants]

It's a very person specific thing, I have seen some rather disturbing blood tests of people with trashed liver/lipid values for months after stopping. It's hard to judge how people will respond , as things like outside stressors(alcohol,poor diet,other medications,other orals,any support supps, prior blood levels) are probably not being included in their posts..............

Personally I think this stuff is best used in a pulse with test.

i liked the idea of the 2 week on 2 week off 2 week on setup some guys were using with their test cycles when it first came out.

 

[-2z-]

This is good to hear. I was starting to think something new had been found out about superdrol. I hadn't been on the boards in a long while, and was finally deciding between a pp/superdrol split run or just one of the 2.

Good the hear all the old safety info still holds. :thumbsup:

 

[jonny21]

It's a very person specific thing, I have seen some rather disturbing blood tests of people with trashed liver/lipid values for months after stopping. It's hard to judge how people will respond , as things like outside stressors(alcohol,poor diet,other medications,other orals,any support supps, prior blood levels) are probably not being included in their posts..............

Way too many variables to determine whether "disturbing" blood tests & lipids are caused by SD or lifestyle. I had absolutely no long term negative LFT or lipid impact. I would venture to say that SD is no more toxic than alcohol. There is permanent damage to liver done with excessive alcohol intake. I have yet to hear of any SD related cirrhosis.

 

[Trauma1]

Way too many variables to determine whether "disturbing" blood tests & lipids are caused by superdrol or lifestyle. I had absolutely no long term negative LFT or lipid impact. I would venture to say that SD is no more toxic than alcohol. There is permanent damage to liver done with excessive alcohol intake. I have yet to hear of any SD related cirrhosis.

I agree jonny the variables are endless. Cirrhosis itself is insidious in onset and doesn't happen overnight, so i doubt we'll ever hear of any SD related issues in that regard. However, true hepatic failure from an overdose of SD or any other pharmacological substance is always a very real possibility. The liver's resilliance is really quite impressive.

 

[Trauma1]

These people claiming superdrol as the culprit and presenting data to represent it and not reporting their alternate substance abuse are then perpetuating the urban legend by failure to disclose.

Exactly. I can't imagine how many people failed to disclose information on outside contributing factors that certainly added to overall hepatic strain while on their SD cycle. Unless the cycle and bloodwork are done in a controlled environment(and we all know that will never happen ), these end test results are essentialy meaningless in my mind.

 

[jonny21]

However, true hepatic failure from an overdose of SD or any other pharmacological substance is always a very real possibility. The liver's resilliance is really quite impressive.

Well, let's keep in mind an overdose is a seperate issue. I assume we are talking about recommend dosing. You can cause renal failure with an overdose of ibuprofen.

 

[Trauma1]

Well, let's keep in mind an overdose is a seperate issue. I assume we are talking about recommend dosing. You can cause renal failure with an overdose of ibuprofen.

It's seperate yes, but still an issue that can easily arise with an ignorant individual.

 

[ifbod]

I've run superdrol 3 times now, once a year to be exact.

(2005-2006) First cycle was 10/20/20 (gained 12lbs, no blood work, bp was 155/90 at end of cycle, 115/68 at start of cycle)

(2006-2007) Second cycle was 10/20/30 (gained 9lbs, no blood work, bp was 166/95 at end of cycle, 118/70 at start of cycle)

(2007-2008) Third cycle was 10/20/20/20 (gained 9lbs, got blood work, bp was 172/95 at end of cycle, 115/64 at start of cycle)

At the end of this last cycle (which was 4 weeks long), I felt much worse that I did from the previous 3 week cycles. Got a headache the last 3 days of the cycle, lost a little appetite, and felt generally lethargic and run down, as well as a pretty bad stomach ache on the right side of my body (thought it could be liver or gallbladder).

I went to the doctor 24 hours after the last pill and had blood taken. My blood work came back with an HDL of 9, LDL of 120, liver & kidney function were normal though.

It's been a week now since I had the blood work done, pain in my right side is gone, appetite is normal, blood pressure I can tell is down but I've gotta get it checked today to verfiy what I feel, but my eyes now feel a little wierd from the clomid and/or nolvadex.

Another thing to note is that I was using garlic, sesathin, cla, efa's, ryr, hawthorn berry, coq-10, and eating oatmeal every day on cycle, and it didn't do anything for me, except for maybe keep my LDL's a little lower than they could've been, but even that is just speculation.

Personally, I won't do another superdrol cycle. I had originally planned to stack a few things together, and run it for 6 weeks, but I'm glad I didn't now, as I'm sure it would've been worse.

 

[nottus]

wow!!

well I just got my blood work back after a 4 week 10mg a day superdrol cycle: I am Screwed!!!

I did not react well at all to this cycle my ast is 80 normal 10-40

my ALT : 166!! Thats through the roof! normal 9-60

HDL Cholesterol : 21 should be over 40

LDL Cholesterol : 137 should be below 130

Any thoughts on how to get this under control? I am on cycle support right now and it does not seem to be doing much?

 

[jpk]

Other anabolics?

Didn't you also run 25mg per day of Halo? Maybe it isn't just the SD causing the elevated liver enzymes.

 

[nottus]

yes

yeah i did run 25 mg of halo a day as well.

 

[ifbod]

My friend had acute liver failure from OD'ing on m1t. he was running like 30-40mg for 6 weeks. He turned yellow, was itching all over and scratched sores onto himself, and was puking non-stop, plus his urine looked like ice tea. His AST/ALT's were several times higher than yours.

He went to the emergency room, and you want to know what they gave him? An IV drip and lots of NAC. He was released in 3-4 days.

Good luck.

 

[nottus]

so...was that supposed to make me feel better? so your saying cycle support with NAC in it for 30 days should be cool?

 

[jonny21]

I thought NAC was only used in hepatitis secondary to acetaminophen toxicity.

 

[nottus]

thats hilarious who wrote that quote about nolva thats classic!

 

[jonny21]

thats hilarious who wrote that quote about nolva thats classic!

It is definitely a classic. Can't remember who it was but it became my sig the moment I saw it.

 

[LilPsychotic]

Personally, I'd worry more about that HDL number than the liver values. Liver numbers are not all that bad and could be the result of having worked out recently, a Tylenol, a stiff drink or two. If they stay conistently elevated then maybe start to worry. It's when they spike 2,3,4 or more times the normal values that you know you're getting acute toxicity.

Takes some KR-ALA to help lower the values.

I agree, liver values not that bad, especially for the cycle you did. I'd be more concerned with getting your lipid profile back to normal, but thats not terrible either. I've seen some way worse sh*t posted on these boards.

 

[poopypants]

were you not running cycle support throughout as well?

And what really made you think running them side by side was going to be productive? both of them are killer with gains on their own and have similar results, IMO you just wasted a whole nother cycle and F'd yourself up in the process..... now to turn this into a slightly productive post instead of critical, there is no real need to take more NAC since a good dose exists in cycle support but I hope your taking a SERM after this cycle right? that alone especially toremifene will hep put lipids back into their place as well as make sure you dont run into est sides and whelp restart test production.

Good luck man and remember for the future less is sometimes more and with these compounds you should take the least effective dose.... not stack multiple strong methyls.