Held onto gains through PCT, now losing them?

[KD1]

Maybe I didnt continue PCT long enough. I did 4 weeks of UH, w/2 weeks Nolva, tapered off the UH over the last 16 days ( 4-3-2-1 at 4 days each dose ).

Anyhow libido was great, gains were still there, now Im starting to lose weight, feel lethargic, and ( I know this sounds weird ) Im losing my body hair. I Nair my chest once a week and the hair is growing back much slower now.

Im wondering if my natural test isnt quite what it used to be, that upon cessation of the UH it has dropped below normal.

I want to see a doctor to get it checked but I dont know how to approach one with this delicate of a question. Or I could just tough it out for a few more weeks, its only been a week since PCT was over.

Advice?

 

[pestis]

Maybe I didnt continue PCT long enough. I did 4 weeks of UH, w/2 weeks Nolva, tapered off the UH over the last 16 days ( 4-3-2-1 at 4 days each dose ).

Anyhow libido was great, gains were still there, now Im starting to lose weight, feel lethargic, and ( I know this sounds weird ) Im losing my body hair. I Nair my chest once a week and the hair is growing back much slower now.

Im wondering if my natural test isnt quite what it used to be, that upon cessation of the UH it has dropped below normal.

I want to see a doctor to get it checked but I dont know how to approach one with this delicate of a question. Or I could just tough it out for a few more weeks, its only been a week since PCT was over.

more info please. what was your cycle?
2 weeks of nolva is not enough. search nolvadex.
also, how is your diet post-cycle? keep your calories up.

 

[KD1]

I was half way into a 6-week cycle of Max LMG + Prost. when I aborted due to injuries - which have since healed.

Calories have kept up, in fact during PCT I added a middle of the night whey protein shake, which I credit somewhat for keeping my gains.

Training wise Ive been consistent PCT and post PCT with the exception of one day I had absolutely nothing so I bailed and gorged myself ( my bf is low - figured I needed a break ).

I kinda saw the Nolva as icing on the cake - only took 10mg a day, with UH being the primary PCT. Ive never had any gyno issues.

 

[milwood]

what's your training like in PCT and beyond?

 

[KD1]

what's your training like in PCT and beyond?

Fine, with the exception of that one day, strength is the same, but Im losing weight.

My routine is upper body split into 2 days - push/pull. Lower body the 3rd day, hit everything twice weekly, 1 day off, repeat.

Sounds like a lot but I do low sets with 4-6 reps, 45-60 min workouts, but hard - leave soaked in sweat. Its worked well for me for years, training "unassisted".

Im probably over-reacting, but the body hair thing is weirding me out. Usually I have course 1/8" hairs on my chest after 7 days, now its like only 30-40% of the hairs are above stubble level and the hairs that are 1/8" are finer.

 

[Malek256]

A basic question: did you up your calories after you increased your muscle mass?

 

[KD1]

No, with the exception of the mid-night protein shake.

Sounds like the reason for my weight loss...

Strange that I held onto it for PCT though.

 

[JonesersRX7]

Remember.. it's more than just numbers on a scale. How much weight are we talking? Have you noticed a loss of muscle size when you look in the mirror? Measurements down?

Don't go at it with such a subjective view. "I've lost 3 pounds! Holy chit man!"..... it's silly....

 

[Malek256]

No, with the exception of the mid-night protein shake.

Sounds like the reason for my weight loss...

Strange that I held onto it for PCT though.

Well, you used chems to artificially prop up your levels during PCT...

When you gain muscle, your daily cals need to go up to feed it. Your resting metabolic rate increases.

 

[KD1]

My peak on cycle was 187, was 185 thru PCT, now Im 182-183. But I look a lot flatter than on cycle especially, and have lost some visual size since PCT.

Im not sure where to add calories honestly, I could eat fattier foods I guess. My GI system is about at its max for healthy food intake - Im taking 2 huge shits a day.

 

[JonesersRX7]

obligatory next question.....

What does your diet look like... macro break down?

 

[KD1]

obligatory next question.....

What does your diet look like... macro break down?

Approx 2800 calories,
50% Carbs,
30% Protein,
20% fat.

 

[H8duke]

Approx 2800 calories,
50% Carbs,
30% Protein,
20% fat.

there you go . NOT enough calories! ther in lies your problem.

 

[Terminator LMG]

there you go . NOT enough calories! ther in lies your problem.

Agreed. Try more like 3200-3500 kcals/day.

 

[shootmeagain]

Hang on a sec...

I see where this guy gives his weight, but not his height, nor his BF%/LBM... so how can you recommend an appropriate caloric intake level for him?

I do agree, if you lost weight after PCT, and that was not your goal (i.e. - dieting, doing a good amount of cardio, etc.) then the most likely culprit is insufficient calories and you've lost overall body comp, unfortunately probably mostly from muscle tissues.

Besides caloric concerns, you may also want to consider shifting the macros % more from carbs to protein next time.

Either way, what you have to keep in mind is that if you make new muscle gains, you have to feed 'em. Beginning with PCT, one might use more protein than usual and also glutamine and BCAAs. Calories are not necessarily bumped up, but they are certainly kept at maint level or greater during PCT and for a couple of weeks thereafter, at least.

 

[KD1]

Ive been trying to shift towards more protein lately, will do a diet re-eval soon, perhaps this weekend. BCAA's and glutamine sound like a good idea for further supplementation. Anyone sell a combo formula of the 2? Something I could drop a scoop of into my protein shakes?

BTW, Im 6'1", ~8% BF ( via calipers ).

 

[ss01]

I kinda wonder what you did with your training volume between on-cycle and pct and beyond? OK I'm going on a limb here :

I think a lot of guys change their routines for a cycle - more volume, tons of intensity. This is all good. BUT I strongly believe that during PCT - or maybe, now that we have these new, super-potent PCT products, AFTER PCT, eventually the volume has to come down. Way down for some, not that much for some others, but mostly I believe your body isn't able to suddenly reconstruct your newly-acquired muscles if you tear them down with too much volume, with just normal testosterone levels. Maybe with time, your myonuclear number will increase and you'll be able to up the volume some more...

Hey, how about some GH-releasers? I do real well on GABA, maybe GABA, Arginine and Ornithine, this is inexpensive and might give you some suprising results.

 

[B5150]

My peak on cycle was 187, was 185 thru PCT, now Im 182-183. But I look a lot flatter than on cycle especially, and have lost some visual size since PCT.

Im not sure where to add calories honestly, I could eat fattier foods I guess. My GI system is about at its max for healthy food intake - Im taking 2 huge shits a day.

Couple things to keep in mind. Androgens often increase glycogen uptake and retention. Though theoretically this could be measured as LBM it can often be transient, and once the the androgen is removed the retention properties go with it. So to go from 187 to 183 is not a whole lot of loss when you condsider glycogen retention is reduced.

One trick that I use is the last two or three days of my cycle before I begin PCT I load up on creatine. During PCT I continue to keep the creatine intake high and also supplement with a slight increase of ALA. Creatine and ALA are complimentary in glycogen uptake and retention in muscle tissue. I usually run this protocol for the entire PCT and then taper down the two about a week or so AFTER the END of my PCT.

Another thing I find helpful in keeping my weight on is Extra Virgin Olive Oil. I keep my surplus high by adding this instead of carbs. Again, because glycogen retention is a bit diminished, I chose to get my surplus from the EFA'a, which also support a health lipid and hormone restoration. I cannot utilize as much carbs when not on androgens (this is just me) so it is a more effective choice for me.

JMO...

 

[diamonddave]

Another thing I find helpful in keeping my weight on is Extra Virgin Olive Oil. I keep my surplus high by adding this instead of crabs.
JMO...

Thanks for this tip. I've been trying, unsuccessfully, to use crabs for my last couple of cycles. :icon_lol:

Sorry, I know what you meant. I just had to give the newest mod some crab............. I mean CRAP.

Congrats!
dd

 

[B5150]

Thanks for this tip. I've been trying, unsuccessfully, to use crabs for my last couple of cycles. :icon_lol:

Sorry, I know what you meant. I just had to give the newest mod some crab............. I mean CRAP.

Congrats!
dd

Meekness = power under restraint. :numbered:

Thanks dd.

"A little Zen headed your way, you'll get it halfway down the interstate. Four days from now it all goes clear, a Buddhist riff for your inner ear" ~DLR

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

love the pct tips. thats where I need help too.

 

[ss01]

love the pct tips. thats where I need help too.

What? You didn't know how to use crabs PCT? About time!

 

[ss01]

I agree with Klaus and B5150. Well, I'm going to go all technical, consider this :

1. muscle protein is synthesized by the myonucleii (muscle cells are the only ones that have more than one nucleus per cell).
2. the number of nucleii per cell (myonuclear number) is variable : it can be increased, but not decreased.
3. increases in the myonuclear number are achieved through merging of satellite cells into the muscle cell.
4. this merging is triggerred by many factors, the most important being intracellular IGF-1 concentration.
5. proliferation of satellite cells is achieved mainly through systemic IGF-1. Intramuscular injections of IGF-1 are in this category.
6. the RATE at which the myonucleii do their synthesis of protein is mainly regulated via testosterone.

So, this explains a lot : why you gain strength more than size on androgens, why you lose it : you have more contractile protein than you can regenerate because after your androgen cycle, your myonucleii downshift.

Actually, you CAN keep the contractile protein, if you don't tear it down more than you can regenerate it after your cycle. This is difficult in part because you are used to a level of training and also because the androgens wear off gradually.

You will notice that this also implies that satellite cells merge more with the myocyte during an androgen cycle. This is good, provided you DO have satellite cells. Repeated androgen cycles will have them all merge with the myocyte and have little potential for growth left. Do a couple months of IGF-1 and the next gear cycle will surely kick a$$ because you will have triggered massive satellite-cell growth.

So I do think there is the unavoidable water/glycogen loss, but also, if you are not CAREFUL, contractile tissue loss. Strength decrease after the androgen cycle should mean something in this regard. OTOH, there is no study with people who are stopping androgen cycle and doing 3-4 sets per bodypart per week during and after PCT and how much strength they retain, so of course it's more or less guesswork at that end of things.

Sorry for the length of this, hopefully it was interesting for someone.

 

[H8duke]

lean extreme along with vitamin c an e are very crucial at this time also. great cortisol blockers. we all know what cortisol does to muscle tissue. superman's kryptonite.

 

[B5150]

I agree with Klaus and B5150. Sorry for the length of this, hopefully it was interesting for someone.

:yawn: and not one mention of crabs... :yawn:

 

[B5150]

lean extreme along with vitamin c an e are very crucial at this time also. great cortisol blockers. we all know what cortisol does to muscle tissue. superman's kryptonite.

old school FL7 is my staple pct anti-cortisol agent.

 

[diamonddave]

:yawn: and not one mention of crabs... :yawn:

:toofunny: He obviously doesn't know as much about PCT as you, B.

"A little Zen headed your way, you'll get it halfway down the interstate. Four days from now it all goes clear, a Buddhist riff for your inner ear"

Pretty obscure stuff here. Your VH knowledge never ceases to amaze me.

dd

 

[B5150]

I Do a couple months of IGF-1 and the next gear cycle will surely kick a$$ because you will have triggered massive satellite-cell growth.

I wonder if IGF-1 bloodwork would be helpful in establishing a baseline and then a corrolative that would be indicative of a point of diminished AAS response and or PCT effectivity.

 

[ss01]

The idea is good, but I think that implementing it would be difficult, since IGF-1 levels are fickle : they vary a lot during the day depending on a host of factors. Hence, measuring them except maybe a few times a day for weeks, would be of very limited use, IMO. Too bad, too, because otherwise doing that idea would yield a LOT of useful information.