Blood Work Reveals......

[Old Guy]

Folks, if you use Superdrol, you damn well better get prepared for some f***ed up Lipids. This stuff may be worse than M-1-T when it comes to screwing up your lipid profile.
I'm four weeks into a SD cycle @ 20mg/day.
Here is my bloodwork results done this week. The only results I'll list are out of normal range. Also the CBC Panel I need to do some research on. If anyone can give some input on these I would appreciate it. Dr.D??

CBC

RDW 16.0 Reference H 11.0-14.5
NEU% 74.9 H 49.2-74.6
LYMPH% 14.3 L 20.8-36.2

Now here is the bad news, and keep in mind I've been taking meds for cholesterol for over a year. My last bloodwork I had been off everything for a few months and total cholesterol was 156 and HDL was 54.

CREATININE 1.4 H 0.5-1.3
ALT (SGPT) 55 H 9-37

CHOLESTEROL 266 H <200
LDL 222 H <130
HDL 11 L > 40

T4 3.7 L 4.6-12.0

I'm afraid I'm through with all these new designer compounds.
Test only from here on out....

 

[t_dot_porkchop]

good post

 

[tattoopierced1]

mine was pretty bad too...btw, did you get total test done perhaps?

 

[Old Guy]

mine was pretty bad too...btw, did you get total test done perhaps?

Test was 320, down from 440 last time it was checked.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

good post, I happen to agree it [may] be worse than M1T on the lipid profile. I ran SD for 3 weeks and the bloodwork was just like your. The goodnews is, it clears up quickly when you come off.

 

[Old Guy]

good post, I happen to agree it [may] be worse than M1T on the lipid profile. I ran SD for 3 weeks and the bloodwork was just like your. The goodnews is, it clears up quickly when you come off.

I wanted to go six weeks, but I'm afraid the HDL would drop into single digits.

 

[PumpDogg]

What really sucks about all this is those who really wish to train and supplement their diets without using aas.. With all the pro hormones of the past and the future of supplementation it seems our government would much rather we use compounds more detrimental to our health as long as they don't fit a certain profile... Then you have those who "stocked up" on said outlawed supplements like M1T etc... and as time passes it almost seems crazy to run them anymore... I know this info was out pre ban, but still it sucks anyways

PD

 

[CEDeoudes59]

You probably already know how to put the lipid profile back together but check here if you like

Restoring my Lipid Profile after Superdrol

 

[Old Guy]

What really sucks about all this is those who really wish to train and supplement their diets without using aas.. With all the pro hormones of the past and the future of supplementation it seems our government would much rather we use compounds more detrimental to our health as long as they don't fit a certain profile... Then you have those who "stocked up" on said outlawed supplements like M1T etc... and as time passes it almost seems crazy to run them anymore... I know this info was out pre ban, but still it sucks anyways

PD

No ****.... I have some M-1-T left that I'll probably wind up throwing away. My last two bad bloodwork results have come from it and now SD.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

any methylated (oral) steroid will do this (superdrol, dianabol, M1T, etc. - particulary Oral AAS that reduce estrogen), 4 weeks isn't a long time to live with a messed up profile - so don't worry. Chances are, it has only been this way for 2 weeks. But that's why we don't cycle methylated orals for beyond 5-6weeks. Just take it as 'par for the course' and make an attempt to restore it after you discontinue use.

 

[CROWLER]

I think that is a good decision based upon the fact that your chol is so bad you are already on medication.




CROWLER

 

[wastedwhiteboy2]

I think I might be missing something here. 4wks into a SD cycle and total test was 320. that part sounds really good. M1t would have taken you to 14.

 

[Old Guy]

I think that is a good decision based upon the fact that your chol is so bad you are already on medication.





CROWLER

Yeah besides what is self inflicted, I'm cursed as far as genetics go also.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

I think I might be missing something here. 4wks into a SD cycle and total test was 320. that part sounds really good. M1t would have taken you to 14.

after you come off, the test will likily drop below 100
libidio is fine while on, afterward - it's going to take 2-4weeks to restore. I'd get an ATD product.

 

[Old Guy]

You probably already know how to put the lipid profile back together but check here if you like

Restoring my Lipid Profile after Superdrol

That was a hell of a recovery Bro.
I was using Red Yeast Rice also, and plenty of flax, fish, and olive oil during the cycle. Were you using all your supps during your cycle or just PCT?

 

[CEDeoudes59]

Just during PCT, none of those supplements will really do anything while on cycle. To date, nothing really helps protect the lipid profile - you merely have to restore it afterward. Nolvadex may help on cycle - that's a big 'may'.

 

[Old Guy]

Just during PCT, none of those supplements will really do anything while on cycle. To date, nothing really helps protect the lipid profile - you merely have to restore it afterward. Nolvadex may help on cycle - that's a big 'may'.

Yeah, I've seen pros and cons to Nolva on cycle and had always been against it unless gyno flared up.
May change my way of thinking now....

 

[ryansm]

I don't think anything will help while on, but it is smart to use the various supps before, during, and after to have the quickest recovery possible. Your results are not surprising, any 17aa oral lke Deo said will have this kind of impact. The fact that you are predisposed to have bad lipid levels is certainly an added factor.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

i responded really well to Red Yeast Rice when training naturally.
Lowered the LDL Cholesterol 80 points in 2 months.
And this wasn't after a cycle where the lipid profile was messed up.
Red Yeast Rice is say to be better than many Rx Cholesterol drugs, I believe it.

 

[Old Guy]

I don't think anything will help while on, but it is smart to use the various supps before, during, and after to have the quickest recovery possible. Your results are not surprising, any 17aa oral lke Deo said will have this kind of impact. The fact that you are predisposed to have bad lipid levels is certainly an added factor.

Yeah I know Bro. It kinda sux, especially now that a few legal products actually give some results.
:sad:

 

[CEDeoudes59]

Policosanol @ 20mg/day may help while on. I don't have bloodwork - but guys on another board I read call it a 'Godsend' while on-cycle. Again, I haven't seen the bloodwork - so I don't know why/how they can say that - but it might be something to look into.

 

[Old Guy]

Policosanol @ 20mg/day may help while on. I don't have bloodwork - but guys on another board I read call it a 'Godsend' while on-cycle. Again, I haven't seen the bloodwork - so I don't know why/how they can say that - but it might be something to look into.

I've read that before too. A lot of people swear by it.

 

[ryansm]

Policosanol @ 20mg/day may help while on. I don't have bloodwork - but guys on another board I read call it a 'Godsend' while on-cycle. Again, I haven't seen the bloodwork - so I don't know why/how they can say that - but it might be something to look into.

I have experimented with various supps to include policosanol, I always get blood work as well, and it did not help my lipids while on cycle.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

Rx Drugs like Lipitor aren't a good idea on cycle right?

 

[Old Guy]

Rx Drugs like Lipitor aren't a good idea on cycle right?

Thats my understanding, they can stress the liver in addition to the 17aa's.
I was using Crestor and one of my liver values was a little high, but that also can be caused by high cholesterol. Obviously the cholesterol meds are useless during a cycle.

 

[BigP0ppa3]

Rx Drugs like Lipitor aren't a good idea on cycle right?

Correct, from what I understand Lipitor can lower cholesterol values but can have liver toxicity as a possible side effect.

Go figure. :think:

BP

 

[Old Guy]

Correct, from what I understand Lipitor can lower cholesterol values but can have liver toxicity as a possible side effect.

Go figure. :think:

BP

Yeah I guess you have to pick your poison.

 

[B5150]

Go figure. :think:

BP

Being alive is great but the side effects can kill you :run:

As a tester I drew blood during the third weeks and I was in my 50mgs phase of testing. My number were just about the same for HDL, but not quite as bad for LDL. I'm surprised at the liver values though. I used 600mg (maybe 900mg...can't remember off hand) of ALA and my values were better on SD and ALA than they were pre cycle.

blood work

 

[bioman]

I really do think the cholesterol/cardio issues involved with methyls are the biggest issue, however if you run them for only 2-4 weeks and work towards lipid recovery during and after PCT, IMO, you'll probably be just fine.

I am also concerned over the fact we do strenuous excercise with our lipids in the gutter. I'd like to see some research on this matter just to be able to wiegh the risks better..but intuitively, it seems like a bad thing.

The new liver supp being offered by CEM seems like it has potential to maybe keep lipids within a safer range. I'd like to see cycles run with it and lipid panels run throughout.

I'd also like a meeeellion dollars.

 

[Old Guy]

I really do think the cholesterol/cardio issues involved with methyls are the biggest issue, however if you run them for only 2-4 weeks and work towards lipid recovery during and after PCT, IMO, you'll probably be just fine.

I am also concerned over the fact we do strenuous excercise with our lipids in the gutter. I'd like to see some research on this matter just to be able to wiegh the risks better..but intuitively, it seems like a bad thing.

The new liver supp being offered by CEM seems like it has potential to maybe keep lipids within a safer range. I'd like to see cycles run with it and lipid panels run throughout.

I'd also like a meeeellion dollars.

This really concerns me, like coming out of a deep squat.

 

[ryansm]

I am also concerned over the fact we do strenuous excercise with our lipids in the gutter. I'd like to see some research on this matter just to be able to wiegh the risks better..but intuitively, it seems like a bad thing.

Exactly what I am concerned with. You have to wonder how much damage is done to the endothelial lining of the heart, inflammation, and what this damage attests to later on in life? This is why blood work is a must, homocysteine levels and other markers that are used to detect this kind of damage is certainly important not just lipid levels.

 

[MarcusG]

i responded really well to Red Yeast Rice when training naturally.
Lowered the LDL Cholesterol 80 points in 2 months.
And this wasn't after a cycle where the lipid profile was messed up.
Red Yeast Rice is say to be better than many Rx Cholesterol drugs, I believe it.

RYR contains the exact same compound as lovastatin and because of this it got the supp banned by the FDA. The ban was rescinded in '99. So I'm not surprised if it is as good as a cholesterol drug.

RYR contains other similar compounds as well and it seems work well even with much lower natural dosages of lovastatin. So it seems that the natural spectrum of lovastatin analogs are more potent?

Kinda sucks that lovastatin is a patented drug even if its an exact copy of a drug found in nature.

 

[ryansm]

There are other properties to RYR that provide the bulk of the benefits, imo.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

RYR contains the exact same compound as lovastatin and because of this it got the supp banned by the FDA. The ban was rescinded in '99. So I'm not surprised if it is as good as a cholesterol drug.

RYR contains other similar compounds as well and it seems work well even with much lower natural dosages of lovastatin. So it seems that the natural spectrum of lovastatin analogs are more potent?

Kinda sucks that lovastatin is a patented drug even if its an exact copy of a drug found in nature.

Ahh that's the name of it 'lovastatin'. Been trying to remember for a week now.

Funny that no doctor recommends Red Yeast Rice. Certainly, our trusted doctors have heard of it. I've never met a doctor that ever recommended a 'legal' dietary supplement. They are quick to write those prescriptions though.

 

[BodyWizard]

well, they don't call it the health-care INDUSTRY for no reason:
industry sells 'finished' (ie, "value-added") products, not raw materials.

 

[brogers]

If using an all-injectible cycle would RYR be cool while "on?" (Assuming much less liver stress without orals) Also isn't CoQ10 reccomended while supplementing with RYR? Forgive me if this was answered earlier in the thread

 

[MarcusG]

There are other properties to RYR that provide the bulk of the benefits, imo.

What are the other properties?

I mentioned above that RYR naturaly has other statin analogs including lovastatin which may have a synergistic effect.

......
Funny that no doctor recommends Red Yeast Rice. Certainly, our trusted doctors have heard of it. I've never met a doctor that ever recommended a 'legal' dietary supplement. They are quick to write those prescriptions though.

You can't expect GPs and family physicians to be well versed in herbalogy. Its because there is 1 drug rep for every 5 doctors and they get their continuing education from glossy adverts.

 

[ryansm]

What are the other properties?

I mentioned above that RYR naturaly has other statin analogs including lovastatin which may have a synergistic effect.

Right it has nine other monacolins that attribute to normal cholesterol levels. Lovastatin or Mevinolin happened to be one of the nine that were patented by Merck as a script drug. The amount of Lovastatin is .2% of the total product (depending on its strength) which would equate to around 5mgs of the statin at 2.5 grams of RYR per day. The perscribed effective dose for Lovastatin is 20-40mgs.

RYR is made up of other cholesterol lowering properties such as, sterols, monounsaturated fatty acids, isoflavones, etc. . .

 

[bioman]

I tried to avoid RRY and statins solely because of thier price. RRY is not cheap to run per month compared to no-flush niacin powder and fish oil. Sadly, it would be cheaper to get prescibed a statin and only pay that $10 co-pay but I refuse to do it. Fortunately, I've had pretty good luck with fish oil, coconut oil and niacin.

In a year or two we'll be seeing statins sold OTC..giving Americans carte blanche to continue to ignore their diets.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

You can't expect GPs and family physicians to be well versed in herbalogy. Its because there is 1 drug rep for every 5 doctors and they get their continuing education from glossy adverts.

true, but I've never heard a physician say a single positive thing about any dietary supplement outside of vitamin C. My family physicaian back in high school went berzerk when I told her I was using protein powder. Absolutely out of her mind.

 

[Dungeon1]

The skewed liver values while high are not incredibly bad. I believe it is ast that can rise in relation to intense training. I also think that probably the most important factor in this particular case is that you knew you had lipid issues going in to the cycle. I feel that your assumption that it will be test only from now on is a good one. If you know you have or are at risk for high cholesterol or even just a bad ratio of good to bad chol., C17AA orals are not for you. It is pretty basic, if the bear is angry, try not to pike him in the eye. I hope that you are able to return to a healthy range.

 

[John Smeton]

I think i know the answer but just want to make sure

is it ok to use the nolva (or i may use raloxifen) combined

with dhea pct?

so is nolva and dhea safe

or raloxifen and dhea safe pct

 

[ersatz]

Policosanol @ 20mg/day may help while on. I don't have bloodwork - but guys on another board I read call it a 'Godsend' while on-cycle. Again, I haven't seen the bloodwork - so I don't know why/how they can say that - but it might be something to look into.

Policosanols are thought to improve lipid profiles by reducing hepatic cholesterol biosynthesis while enhancing LDL clearance. There was a proposed sticky thread that had a wealth of good info in it.

There's also a handful of gray market drugs that should be beneficial to the cardiovascular system oncycle.

 

[Old Guy]

The skewed liver values while high are not incredibly bad. I believe it is ast that can rise in relation to intense training. I also think that probably the most important factor in this particular case is that you knew you had lipid issues going in to the cycle. I feel that your assumption that it will be test only from now on is a good one. If you know you have or are at risk for high cholesterol or even just a bad ratio of good to bad chol., C17AA orals are not for you. It is pretty basic, if the bear is angry, try not to pike him in the eye. I hope that you are able to return to a healthy range.

Thanks Bro.

 

[bioman]

Nolva/Ralo/DHEA are safe to use with each other.

That Sytrinol over at BAC looks pretty interesting for cholesterol maintenance.

 

[-2z-]

This whole thread makes me cringe....since I'm in the 7th week of my Mohn cycle.
:blink:

 

[DR.D]

OK, this is how I see it... First, these ranges are very subjective from lab to lab. I don't think your transaminase is disturbed until it hits the 60's. Your ALT is OK, IMO. Of course your corpuscles will be elevated. Lymphocytes are often low, oh well. Sometimes mine are up too, I wouldn't give a dime for the difference in most cases! It depends on allergies to an extent also, it could be anything and it's not bad in your case. Orals increase creatine excretion so that looks normal. Even just additional calories can, so just be sure to drink plenty so you don't grow kidney stones from a saturated urinary track. The cholesterol looks ugly. I just chug the flax, fish and safflower oils and pray for the best when doing these non-aromatizable orals. Of course, I'd be stacking it with test or something that would contribute some estrogen so as to help the ratios shift a little better too. Your T4 is not really low until it hits 2.5 IMO. Another subjective result. It is in the low end of the range. This may be why your LDL is high. I use 250mcg T4 daily and chol stays nice and low. With the HDL help from the oils, I like that approach. It's not as bad as it looks OG, I think your OK mostly. You may employ a few of CEDeoudes59's protocols too, he expanded this a lot. If you're going to supp a SERM to improve chol though, I'd use low dose (25mg/d) Clomid instead of Nolva.

Folks, if you use Superdrol, you damn well better get prepared for some f***ed up Lipids. This stuff may be worse than M-1-T when it comes to screwing up your lipid profile.
I'm four weeks into a SD cycle @ 20mg/day.
Here is my bloodwork results done this week. The only results I'll list are out of normal range. Also the CBC Panel I need to do some research on. If anyone can give some input on these I would appreciate it. Dr.D??

CBC

RDW 16.0 Reference H 11.0-14.5
NEU% 74.9 H 49.2-74.6
LYMPH% 14.3 L 20.8-36.2

Now here is the bad news, and keep in mind I've been taking meds for cholesterol for over a year. My last bloodwork I had been off everything for a few months and total cholesterol was 156 and HDL was 54.

CREATININE 1.4 H 0.5-1.3
ALT (SGPT) 55 H 9-37

CHOLESTEROL 266 H <200
LDL 222 H <130
HDL 11 L > 40

T4 3.7 L 4.6-12.0

I'm afraid I'm through with all these new designer compounds.
Test only from here on out....

 

[Old Guy]

OK, this is how I see it... First, these ranges are very subjective from lab to lab. I don't think your transaminase is disturbed until it hits the 60's. Your ALT is OK, IMO. Of course your corpuscles will be elevated. Lymphocytes are often low, oh well. Sometimes mine are up too, I wouldn't give a dime for the difference in most cases! It depends on allergies to an extent also, it could be anything and it's not bad in your case. Orals increase creatine excretion so that looks normal. Even just additional calories can, so just be sure to drink plenty so you don't grow kidney stones from a saturated urinary track. The cholesterol looks ugly. I just chug the flax, fish and safflower oils and pray for the best when doing these non-aromatizable orals. Of course, I'd be stacking it with test or something that would contribute some estrogen so as to help the ratios shift a little better too. Your T4 is not really low until it hits 2.5 IMO. Another subjective result. It is in the low end of the range. This may be why your LDL is high. I use 250mcg T4 daily and chol stays nice and low. With the HDL help from the oils, I like that approach. It's not as bad as it looks OG, I think your OK mostly. You may employ a few of CEDeoudes59's protocols too, he expanded this a lot. If you're going to supp a SERM to improve chol though, I'd use low dose (25mg/d) Clomid instead of Nolva.

I just switched from Crestor 10mg to Vytorin 10/40 for the Lipids. Also adjusted the diet a little, and increased the good oils.
Thanks Dr.D. and everyone for the replies.

 

[Spitdeath]

This whole thread makes me cringe....since I'm in the 7th week of my Mohn cycle.
:blink:

I didn't think m-ohn was very hard on cholesterol I hope it wasn't cause I did 5 weeks of that **** and got nothing. :rasp:

 

[400runner]

Mohn is very mild (for being what it is) but you wont see incrediable results from this compound...its better to stack it with something else. sorry to hear you had no luck.