Trestolone, MENT, Any info out there on it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sergeant
    methyltrienolone Here is the link. Interestin and somewhat disturbing. I am not sure what ti believe. I think that I still want to try it.
    That is a diff compound. From my reading and from the study i posted MENT isnt very toxic.

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    sergeant=--that is methyl tren they are discussing in your thread.
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    PLEASE, forgive me for being such a dumbass. Man I am banishing myself from the board for at least a week. I apologize, I am really not that stupid. Earlier in this thread there was some talk about toxicity, Big Cat's article mentioned toxicity and the T portion of the two compunds caught my eye and I did not read it very well. At least, after pointing that out to me, I am back to trying it. Again, sorry for the confusion, thanks for no hard flames.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boss_K
    sergeant=--that is methyl tren they are discussing in your thread.
    •   
       

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    Quote Originally Posted by sergeant
    PLEASE, forgive me for being such a dumbass. Man I am banishing myself from the board for at least a week. I apologize, I am really not that stupid. Earlier in this thread there was some talk about toxicity, Big Cat's article mentioned toxicity and the T portion of the two compunds caught my eye and I did not read it very well. At least, after pointing that out to me, I am back to trying it. Again, sorry for the confusion, thanks for no hard flames.
    Haha, don't worry about it. Everyone makes mistakes.
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    Funny I was just reading that thread too, thats why I was so speedy with the reply button..!

    Quote Originally Posted by sergeant
    PLEASE, forgive me for being such a dumbass. Man I am banishing myself from the board for at least a week. I apologize, I am really not that stupid. Earlier in this thread there was some talk about toxicity, Big Cat's article mentioned toxicity and the T portion of the two compunds caught my eye and I did not read it very well. At least, after pointing that out to me, I am back to trying it. Again, sorry for the confusion, thanks for no hard flames.
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    If I had not self imposed banishment for a week, I would reply back and say thanks for the understanding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by natiels
    Im not seeing the thread that mentions this is toxic. Could you post a link? I do see another thread talking about a related toxic compound but its not MENT.

    I found this study on MENT. It seems somewhat informative, especially for someone who wants to try it. Most of the good info on MENT is in the last 30 pages starting around page 50.
    http://scholar.google.com/url?sa=U&q...i/7alphame.pdf

    I really really wanna try this stuff so i have been looking for as much info as possible. I would be taking it orally in an oil solution. Think i might go with 10mg 3x/day or perhaps 20mg divided into 3 daily doses, not sure yet. What would a good guess be on the oral bioavailability?
    Just say goodbye to your balls, and HELLO to your new TITS!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone
    Just say goodbye to your balls, and HELLO to your new TITS!!!
    Yeah...you already made this post. You trying for one on each page?
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    Now is that a very nice way to treat another Maineiac? I will be sure to have all the ancillaries to prevent that. Hopefully I will be saying goodbye to old muscles and hello to larger and stronger muscles.
    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone
    Just say goodbye to your balls, and HELLO to your new TITS!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone
    I just don't understand how anyone would want to use a male contraceptive for an anabolic. The posibility of developing gyno on this stuff seems very good to excellent. I guess it just depends on what your willing to risk...Oh and I wasn't aware you were from Maine also. Not a lot of people are into fitness in the Fatest state in New England. Please let everyone know about your cycle, I would be interested to know if you can still get it up after day 3.
    Testosterone enanthate has been used as a contraceptive too. MENT is supposed to be 12 times more suppressive then test and 10 times more anabolic. People routinely take 500-750mg of test/week on cycles (injected at near 100% BA). I am planning on taking 105-175mg a week (orally..maybe 35% BA?).

    The lower end of my dose is less then 1/10 the 750mg mark for test when you figure in the 35% BA. If i were to take 500mg of MENT per week, then yes...i would experience 12x the suppression, but why would anyone do such a thing? That would be like taking 5000 mg of test.

    My goal with this compound is to find a dosage that provides me with the anabolism of 500-750mg of test/wk which should equal just slightly more suppression then an equal dosage of test. Also, while the estrogen that comes from MENT is potent i don't believe it is 10x as potent as normal estrogen so my dosage will likely provide less chances for gyno then an equivelent dosage of test.

    I am still doing research and trying to come up with a good dosage so things may change a bit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone
    Oh yeah, your the kid from Lewistion. Now I remember you. Sorry us old folks forget stuff and tend to repeat themselves. Sorry us old folks forget stuff and tend to repeat themselves. Sorry us old folks forget stuff and tend to repeat themselves. Sorry us old folks forget stuff and tend to repeat themselves.
    ....whatever. We are on page 4 now, remember to add your stupid fairwell balls comment.
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    And anyway, its a given that you will probably not be able to get it up after a few days on it, its supposed to shut you down. We're looking for it's muscle building aspects. I'm sure with the proper ancillaries on cycle and a solid PCT you will bring the boys back from the dead. I really look forward to anyone who will be doing a cycle of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 50joe
    And anyway, its a given that you will probably not be able to get it up after a few days on it, its supposed to shut you down. We're looking for it's muscle building aspects. I'm sure with the proper ancillaries on cycle and a solid PCT you will bring the boys back from the dead. I really look forward to anyone who will be doing a cycle of it.
    One of the good things about MENT is one of the reasons it was chosen for a contraceptive. It supports sexual function. No point to a contraceptive that makes you impotent by making you literally impotent . Who knows at high dose tho. I'm hoping it will just boost libido.
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    wouldn'y doing HCG throughout your cycle keep you from kissing your balls goodbye?
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    There's a thread over on musclegurus where a member has been using MENT at 50mg IM ed. He's been on for 2 weeks and is so far happy with his results. Just a little fyi for ya guys...
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    Quote Originally Posted by quigs
    There's a thread over on musclegurus where a member has been using MENT at 50mg IM ed. He's been on for 2 weeks and is so far happy with his results. Just a little fyi for ya guys...
    nice, thanx for the info.
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    Quote Originally Posted by natiels
    nice, thanx for the info.
    No problem. I'm a med student, so I have access to plenty of journal articles on anabolics. I've found around 20 studies on MENT in humans. There's some interesting info on this product if you guys are interested. Let me know if you'd like me to dig some up and post abstracts or something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by quigs
    No problem. I'm a med student, so I have access to plenty of journal articles on anabolics. I've found around 20 studies on MENT in humans. There's some interesting info on this product if you guys are interested. Let me know if you'd like me to dig some up and post abstracts or something.
    Absolutely, I have gotten everything i can off of pubmed and google scholar, but would be interested in anything more that you have special access to, especially studies with humans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by quigs
    No problem. I'm a med student, so I have access to plenty of journal articles on anabolics. I've found around 20 studies on MENT in humans. There's some interesting info on this product if you guys are interested. Let me know if you'd like me to dig some up and post abstracts or something.
    Heck yes! If you could get some good reading up for us, I'm sure everyone would really appreciate it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by 50joe
    Heck yes! If you could get some good reading up for us, I'm sure everyone would really appreciate it!
    Not a problem guys. I have access to one of the largest collections of medical journals in the country...so if you've got questions I'd be happy to help. To give you an idea, MEDLINE is one of several databases for these articles and medline has almost all of the journal articles from around the world that have been published since 1966. Basically, if it's been studied and published, I can find it. I'm at home right now, so I will post some of the online articles that I can find from MEDLINE. I'll be in the library sometime this weekend and will have access to all of the paper copies of these journals...so i'll be able to find more. You see, there are a limited number of articles that are still kept in their full text online (still a lot but not nearly my school's entire collection). The rest are all in bound journals at the school library. Anyways, I'll post some of the abstracts (articles are really long to post) and you can let me know which you'd like to see more info on and I'll go look it up.

    Here goes:

    Unique Identifier 14602755
    Authors von Eckardstein S. Noe G. Brache V. Nieschlag E. Croxatto H. Alvarez F. Moo-Young A. Sivin I. Kumar N. Small M. Sundaram K. International Committee for Contraception Research, The Population Council.
    Institution Institute of Reproductive Medicine, University of Munster, Munster, Germany.
    Title A clinical trial of 7 alpha-methyl-19-nortestosterone implants for possible use as a long-acting contraceptive for men.
    Source Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism. 88(11):5232-9, 2003 Nov.
    Abstract Several preparations of testosterone and its esters are being investigated alone or in combination with other gonadotropin-suppressing agents as possible antifertility agents for men. We studied the effectiveness of 7 alpha-methyl-19-nortestosterone (MENT) as an antispermatogenic agent in men. MENT has been shown to be more potent than testosterone and to be resistant to 5 alpha-reduction. For sustained delivery of MENT, we used a system consisting of ethylene vinyl acetate implants containing MENT acetate (Ac), administered subdermally. Thirty-five normal volunteers were recruited in 3 clinics and were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 doses: 1 (12 men), 2 (11 men), or 4 (12 men) MENT Ac implants. The initial average in vitro release rate of MENT Ac from each implant was approximately 400 micro g/day. Implants were inserted subdermally in the medial aspect of the upper arm under local anesthesia. The duration of treatment was initially designed to be 6 months. However, in 2 clinics the duration of treatment was extended to 9 months for the 2-implant group and to 12 months for the 4-implant group. Dose-related increases in serum MENT levels and decreases in testosterone, LH, and FSH levels were observed. Effects on sperm counts were also dose related. None of the subjects in the 1-implant group exhibited oligozoospermia (sperm count, <3 million/ml). Four subjects in the 2-implant group became oligozoospermic, 2 of whom reached azoospermia. Eight subjects in the 4-implant group reached azoospermia, with 1 exhibiting oligozoospermia, whereas 2 were nonresponders. Side effects generally seen with androgen administration, such as increases in erythrocyte count, hematocrit, and hemoglobin and a decrease in SHBG, were also seen in this study and were reversible. Changes in lipid parameters were moderate and transient. Liver enzymes showed small changes. This study demonstrates that MENT Ac, when administered in a sustained release fashion via subdermal implants, can inhibit spermatogenesis over a prolonged period after a single administration and has the potential to be used as a male contraceptive.





    Unique Identifier 12788888
    Authors Anderson RA. Wallace AM. Sattar N. Kumar N. Sundaram K.
    Institution Medical Research Council Human Reproductive Sciences Unit, University of Edinburgh, Edinburgh, United Kingdom EH16 4SB. r.a.anderson@hrsu.mrc.ac.uk
    Title Evidence for tissue selectivity of the synthetic androgen 7 alpha-methyl-19-nortestosterone in hypogonadal men.
    Source Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism. 88(6):2784-93, 2003 Jun.
    Abstract The potent synthetic androgen 7 alpha-methyl-19-nortestosterone (MENT) is resistant to 5 alpha-reductase but is a substrate for aromatase. It may therefore offer selective sparing of the prostate gland while supporting other androgen-dependent tissues. MENT acetate implants were administered for 24 wk to 16 hypogonadal men, randomly allocated to 1 or 2 implants (groups I and II, respectively; releasing approximately 400 microg/d x implant). Hemoglobin concentration and hematocrit were maintained during MENT treatment. Prostate volume fell in group I and to a small, but statistically nonsignificant, degree in group II; the level of prostate-specific antigen fell significantly in both. Lumbar spine bone mineral density decreased in both groups. Sexual behavior and erectile function declined in group I, but were maintained in group II. Thus, overall, one MENT implant appeared to provide subphysiological androgen replacement. The 2-implant dose of MENT was able to maintain most androgen-dependent functions, except bone mass, and there was evidence to support selective sparing of the prostate gland. These results demonstrate for the first time in humans the selectivity of MENT in tissues dependent on 5 alpha-reductase. In addition, our data are consistent with the importance of adequate estrogenicity as part of the necessary spectrum of activity of an androgen for replacement therapy in men.






    Unique Identifier 10522995
    Authors Anderson RA. Martin CW. Kung AW. Everington D. Pun TC. Tan KC. Bancroft J. Sundaram K. Moo-Young AJ. Baird DT.
    Institution Medical Research Council Reproductive Biology Unit, Center for Reproductive Biology, Edinburgh, Scotland. r.a.anderson@ed-rbu.mrc.ac.uk
    Title 7Alpha-methyl-19-nortestosterone maintains sexual behavior and mood in hypogonadal men.
    Source Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism. 84(10):3556-62, 1999 Oct.
    Abstract The synthetic steroid 7alpha-methyl-19-nortestosterone (MENT) is a potent androgen that is resistant to 5alpha-reductase. It thus has decreased activity at the prostate and may have advantages over testosterone-based regimens in long term treatment or as part of a male contraceptive. Administration to eugonadal men results in suppression of gonadotropins, but its ability to support androgen-dependent behavior has not been investigated. For sustained release administration, MENT acetate was used, because its diffusion characteristics were more suitable for use in implants. However, upon release the acetate is rapidly hydrolyzed, and MENT is the biologically active moiety in circulation. We studied the effects of MENT on sexual interest and activity, spontaneous erection, and mood states in comparison with testosterone enanthate (TE) in 20 Caucasian and Chinese hypogonadal men recruited in Edinburgh and Hong Kong (n = 10 in each center). Outcomes were measured using a combination of daily diaries, semistructured interviews, and questionnaires. Nocturnal penile tumescence (NPT) was also recorded in the Edinburgh group. After withdrawal of androgen replacement treatment (wash-out phase) for a minimum of 6 weeks, subjects were randomized to two groups in a cross-over design. Drug treatment regimens were of 6-week duration and consisted of two implants, each containing 115 mg MENT acetate, inserted s.c. into the upper arm and removed after 6 weeks and two injections of TE (200 mg, i.m.) 3 weeks apart. MENT treatment resulted in stable plasma MENT concentrations of 1.4 +/- 0.1 nmol/L after 3 weeks and 1.3 +/- 0.1 nmol/L after 6 weeks (mean +/- SEM; all men). Nadir testosterone concentrations were 3.6 +/- 0.6 nmol/L at the end of the wash-out phase and 9.4 +/- 0.6 nmol/L 3 weeks after each injection. There were no differences in hormone concentrations between centers. There were no adverse toxicological effects. There were only minor differences between the two treatments. Both MENT and TE treatment resulted in significant increases in sexual interest and activity, spontaneous erection (both by self-report and NPT measurement), and increases in positive moods, with decreases in negative moods in the Edinburgh group. In the Hong Kong group, both treatments increased waking erection, with a trend toward increased sexual interest and activity. Mood states appeared to be less affected during the wash-out phase than in Edinburgh men and showed no significant response to either treatment. These results demonstrate that MENT has similar effects on sexual activity and mood states as testosterone in hypogonadal men. As NPT is a physiological androgen-dependant outcome, these data provide further evidence for the androgenicity of MENT. The lack of detected effect of either androgen in Hong Kong men other than on waking erection illustrates the importance of the cultural context of symptomatology and its measurement. The appropriate dose of MENT remains to be determined, but these results support its development as a potential androgen replacement therapy.
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    10469681
    Authors Noe G. Suvisaari J. Martin C. Moo-Young AJ. Sundaram K. Saleh SI. Quintero E. Croxatto HB. Lahteenmaki P.
    Institution Instituto Chileno de Medicina Reproductiva, Santiago, Chile.
    Title Gonadotrophin and testosterone suppression by 7alpha-methyl-19-nortestosterone acetate administered by subdermal implant to healthy men.
    Source Human Reproduction. 14(9):2200-6, 1999 Sep.
    Abstract The synthetic androgen 7alpha-methyl-19-nortestosterone (MENT) is a potent suppressor of gonadotrophin that has several advantages for long term administration to normal or hypoandrogenic men. The aim of this study was to examine MENT serum concentrations following subdermal insertion of MENT acetate (MENT Ac) implants and their effects on gonadotrophins, testosterone, dihydrotestosterone (DHT), sex hormone-binding globulin, prostate specific antigen and insulin-like growth factor-1 serum concentrations in normal men. A total of 45 healthy men were recruited at three clinics. Each subject received one, two or four implants for 28 days. Serum samples were obtained before insertion and on days 8, 15, 22, 29, 36 and 43 after implant insertion. The average daily dose delivered in vivo by one implant was approximately 500 microg. One, two or four MENT Ac implants produced dose dependent and sustained serum MENT concentrations for the entire duration of treatment of 0.7 +/- 0.1, 1.2 +/- 0.1 and 2.0 +/- 0.1 nmol/l respectively. This treatment induced a dose dependent decrease in gonadotrophin and androgen serum levels. Two and four implants induced maximal suppression that was maintained throughout treatment and was completely reversed after removal of the implants. The mean decreases were 93 +/- 1% for testosterone, 80 +/- 3% for DHT, 97 +/- 1% for luteinizing hormone and 95 +/- 1% for follicle stimulating hormone. No serious adverse reactions were reported by the volunteers and no consistent changes in clinical chemistry and haematology were found. These results indicate that MENT Ac implants are an efficient way of MENT administration and confirm the potent gonadotrophin and androgen suppressive effect of this drug.



    Unique Identifier 9194649
    Authors Suvisaari J. Sundaram K. Noe G. Kumar N. Aguillaume C. Tsong YY. Lahteenmaki P. Bardin CW.
    Institution Steroid Research Laboratory, Institute of Biomedicine, University of Helsinki, Finland.
    Title Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of 7alpha-methyl-19-nortestosterone after intramuscular administration in healthy men.
    Source Human Reproduction. 12(5):967-73, 1997 May.
    Abstract 7alpha-Methyl-19-nortestosterone (MENT) is a potent synthetic androgen that is resistant to 5alpha-reductases and therefore less prone to over-stimulate the prostate. It is a good candidate for implant administration in long-term androgen replacement therapy for hypogonadal men or as part of a male contraceptive system. To investigate the pharmacokinetics of MENT after i.m. administration, single i.m. injections of 2, 4 or 8 mg of micronized MENT were given in aqueous suspension to 18 healthy men in two clinics. Blood was sampled frequently for 8 h and 1, 2, 3, 4 and 9 days after the injections. Serum MENT concentrations were determined by radioimmunoassay. Peak MENT concentrations were dose-dependent and were reached about 1-2 h after the injections. Doubling the dose of MENT resulted in an increase of 60% in peak serum MENT concentrations. The mean +/- SE clearance rate was 1790 +/- 140 l/day. The antigonadotrophic activity of MENT was investigated by giving six consecutive daily i.m. injections of 1, 2 or 4 mg of MENT to 24 healthy men in two clinics. Blood was sampled before each injection and up to 24 days after the last injection. Serum testosterone and gonadotrophin concentrations (determined by radioimmunoassay and fluoroimmunoassay respectively) decreased in a dose-dependent and statistically significant manner. The highest dose caused a 74% fall in testosterone, a 70% fall in luteinizing hormone, and a 57% fall in follicle stimulating hormone concentrations. MENT injections did not cause any side-effects. The results show that MENT is a potent antigonadotrophic agent in men.
    Publication Type Clinical Trial. Controlled Clinical Trial. Journal Article. Multicenter Study.


    Those are a few that I could find off hand. They're available online so posting the entire article should be no problem. Let me know which one's look good. Also, If you've got specific questions you want me to look up I can certainly do my best.
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    I'm curious as to why metribolone is so hard on the liver. You would think that all 17AA compounds would be equally demanding on the liver, but this doesn't seem to be the case. Is there something unique to its structure that makes it more liver toxic even when used in microgram dosages?
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    bump
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    It's a complex issue. I have explained it in posts on other threads here before, but it's basically about molecular structure. Icterus is the main issue. High doses of 17-alkylated steroids can cause pruritus if obstructive jaundice develops. This accelerates icterus. This is not seen even with massive doses of highly potent non-alkylated steroids, so the cause of intrahepatic cholestasis is due to the structure of the steroid itself. The more androgenic, the harsher the effect. 17-alkylation protects from metabolic deactivation, so dose and potency are the main factors with orals. Androgenicity can simplely be viewed as local anabolism in this model. It is tissue specific anabolism actually. I would elaborate, but you'd all start yawning!
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    anyone tried ment yet? is it really as good as it looks on paper?
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    Just to chime in...
    Anybody have results yet? Also, in another thread, a someone had tried 20mg oral per day or something like that. Big Cat had stated that it was not at all active orally. From the looks of previous posts in this thread, it looks orally active. What's the consensus?
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    Here's the best study I found on MENT when the Sledgemeister was considering it.
    Attached Files Attached Files
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    Cool, thanks! So from what I could see in that study... MENT is orally active, and once daily IM injections are as frequent as you would need. It would shut you down hard, like other androgens, but since it doesn't accumulate in tissue you should bounce back quickly? It also seems libido neutral. Why haven't people been trying this out? Fear of the unknown? I'm a little wary to try it out since others that are wiser are not trying it. Although maybe thats why noone's tried it yet...
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    bad news! the MENT from a source that i know of is not in acetate form-so what good is that.
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    If I read that study correctly, Ment non-acetate was the compound that was used in the oral part of the research?
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    I've been giving serious consideration to using this at 50-100mg oral ed. Still haven't decided, but I probly will. If I do I'll keep a log.
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    So I've decided that I am gonna do it. I just haven't decided if I want to pin it at 50mg ed for 8 weeks and throw e-max in for the last four, or go 100mg ed oral for 4 weeks and e-max for four more.

    The main reason I'm split is suppression. Since this stuff is so suppressive, I really don't want to run HCG, though I will if I have to. I've always thought that anything longer than 8 weeks warrants it and anything shorter doesn't need it. Since this stuff is so suppressive though I'm wondering if I'd need it even if it is just an 8 weeker. I'm going to be running low dose ATD for the whole cycle to fight estrogen and I'm also going to be using it for pct along with Activate and lean xtreme. If I pin it I'm also gonna have to homebrew it, which could prove difficult, since I don't have an oven and I've never homebrewed anything before.

    If anyone has any advice I'm totally open.
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    The vendor that I know of that carries MENT powder also carries a "magic" solution that makes homebrewing much easier. It's an oil/solvent mix which I believe contains BA. That should make a nice sterile solution that you wouldn't have to bake. The price is great too. Like $20 for 100ml of the stuff, and it can do up to 200mg/ml. That's the route I'm looking at doing as well. I just have to recoup the supplement budget after buying up some bottles of PP.
    Also, you might want to consider throwing some Nolva in for PCT. With natural test being so low after a MENT cycle it will probably be needed to keep the estrogen in check while you recover. Nolva is pretty cheap (although not AS cheap since CNW stopped carrying it - grr... stupid legal attack dogs) and it's good insurance.
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    I'll look into nolva as well. I just figured it might be overkill since I'm also gonna be running th NHA stack for pct.
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    how much do you weigh, 50mg might be too much, this stuff is very wet, test subject was still retaining water even with a low dose of letro, ATD may not cut it. HCG is not a bad idea to prepare the testes for testosterone production again through the HPTA by simulating LH production(HCG does not "kickstart" your LH production, it suppresses it. It mimics LH in the body.), in the birth control testing it was recommended that a LH production stimulant be used along side it for long term use, it still wouldn't hurt for short term use.
    Last edited by weeenisss; 11-11-2005 at 12:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by goa1175
    The vendor that I know of that carries MENT powder also carries a "magic" solution that makes homebrewing much easier. It's an oil/solvent mix which I believe contains BA. That should make a nice sterile solution that you wouldn't have to bake. The price is great too. Like $20 for 100ml of the stuff, and it can do up to 200mg/ml. That's the route I'm looking at doing as well. I just have to recoup the supplement budget after buying up some bottles of PP.
    Also, you might want to consider throwing some Nolva in for PCT. With natural test being so low after a MENT cycle it will probably be needed to keep the estrogen in check while you recover. Nolva is pretty cheap (although not AS cheap since CNW stopped carrying it - grr... stupid legal attack dogs) and it's good insurance.
    It will sort of hold at 75mg/ml in the magic solution you speak of, It has to be heated prior to use because it gels up otherwise, it is not painful in the least so dont worry about that, B12 hurts more, (place vial in a water bath and bring it to a boil, voila)

    Nolva or Ralox is a must as gyno is likely due to the wetness, also on a side note it does not seem to support or hinder libido at higher doses like 50mg/day
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    HCG does not "kickstart" your LH production, it suppresses it. It mimics LH in the body.
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    I'm about 5'6" 185. I thought 50 mg was a moderate dose. If not 50 mg then how much? Should I get nolva and letro or just letro? I already bought the atd to run during the cycle from day one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mywetnightmares
    I'm about 5'6" 185. I thought 50 mg was a moderate dose. If not 50 mg then how much? Should I get nolva and letro or just letro? I already bought the atd to run during the cycle from day one.
    test subject is 220ish, 45mg/day seemed plenty. keep in mind, it is non-esterfied, in the BC testing, subjects were given less than 10mg/day(if memory serves me correct it was like 8mg) and experienced suppression. NOLVA is a must if you start to get gyno, i have not used ATD so I dont know how it compares to letro in strength. 30mg might be a good dose of MENT, its non-esterfied so it will be fast acting like test-susp so if you feel you can handle more, by all means ramp it up, I would really suggest 2x daily dosing, its really quite painless, and insulin syringes would be fine(make sure the oil is hot when you draw or it will take FOREVER) since you dont need a lot of the susp. at all, it would probably help reduce the possibility of gyno by keeping hormone levels more consistent, keep in mind big cat's dosage recommendations were for MENT Acetate, so you dont need quite as much. are you running this as a stand-alone? please keep a log of how this goes for you.
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    From what I've read 50mg is pretty high if you're pinning it. Everything I've seen is 20-30mg ED.
    Nolva will definitely be needed for this. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Letro is more for preventing aromatization while on cycle. Nolva is to minimize the effects of estrogen while in PCT. During PCT the estrogen/test ratio is highly skewed toward estrogen which can lead to gyno. I think the Nolva also helps dry you out. At least that's been my impression of how the chem guru's have explained it. Dr. D's famous Nolva/Fenugreek/DHEA combo might be they way to go here.
  

  
 

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