Growth Plate Closure

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containment

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I'm just trying to confirm the reason for growth plate closure.

Excess estrogen causes the closure, which is why even with proper PCT it is dangerous for those under 21 (with open plates) because on cycle estrogen levels are higher than normal.

Anybody clear this up for me, I'm confused :/
 

paperbolix

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correct, if for example a 15 year old boy is to use AAS, the excess estrogen 'triks' his body into thinking that it's actually a girl becoming a grown woman, at that point the plates close and he'll wind up stuck at 5'5" or whatever, so not a good idea to use AAS until you are 21 when you are finished growing anyways..
 

CarryOnTheChaos

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what about those of us who are pushing 5'5" and are over 21...been 5'5" since 17 and didn't use anything even protein until around my 20's

...i enjoy being a midget...makes me look that much bigger, haha

j/k though I agrre with what you said

regards,
COTC
 

400runner

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containment vbmenu_register("postmenu_315730", true); .....its obvious your you 30!..i would honestly say wait a while...
 

paperbolix

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once your 20 you have stopped growing anyways, I stopped getting taller when I was 17-18 and I wasn't on any juice
 

ersatz

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It would be more interesting to see if one could increase their height using AIs, provided the appropriate conditions.
 

Matthew D

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once your 20 you have stopped growing anyways, I stopped getting taller when I was 17-18 and I wasn't on any juice
Nope not the case in a large part of the male population. Most continue to grow/mature for a few more years..
 

paperbolix

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Anavar can cause one to grow taller than he/she would have naturally if taken before adulthood because it does not aromatize and there is no estrogen buildup..it was initially developed to aid children with growth deficiencies.

It would be more interesting to see if one could increase their height using AIs, provided the appropriate conditions.
 

containment

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Anavar can cause one to grow taller than he/she would have naturally if taken before adulthood because it does not aromatize and there is no estrogen buildup..it was initially developed to aid children with growth deficiencies.
What doses did it exhibit that side effect (growth) at? I was looking on the BB.com page and it didn't list anything like that.

Edit: Also, wouldn't a more powerful androgen be more useful for something like that?
 

paperbolix

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I don't know, I one time saw this guy post that he claimed he was 18 and that he shot up a 1/2 inch in the weeks that he was taking it but I'm not sure it would really make a difference; when it was prescribed to children it was in small doses like less that 5mg/day
 

liltwisted360

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so what if a 15 year old did a 10 week cycle of test but took an anti-e on cycle to control estrogen?? would it still stunt growth?
 

oli200

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I was wondering then that the estrogen levels produced from aromatizing test during puberty isnt high enough to close growth plates (as obviously people continue to grow until their twenties), however it is high enough to cause pubescent gyno.

Does it just require very high amounts of estrogen?
 

ersatz

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I was wondering then that the estrogen levels produced from aromatizing test during puberty isnt high enough to close growth plates (as obviously people continue to grow until their twenties), however it is high enough to cause pubescent gyno.

Does it just require very high amounts of estrogen?
Estrogen isn't the only factor limiting bone growth. But I would think that endogenous levels of E do in some part cause growth plates to seal and hence also cause pubertal gyno.
 

scipio

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ok, so, from what I've read on the this thread, theoretically, if a child going through puberty was given a compound to lower estrogen levels that they could delay the fusion of growth plates?
 

Ghosting

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so what if a 15 year old did a 10 week cycle of test but took an anti-e on cycle to control estrogen?? would it still stunt growth?
Forget height. Height is the least of your concerns when you have a developing endocrine system you want to flood with external hormones. Why does everyone talk about height like it is the only side?
 

nostawk

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I posted these in a different thread a couple days ago. If I were 14 again knowing what I know now, I would probably be taking a mild aromatase inhibitor.

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J Pediatr Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Mar;18(3):285-93. Related Articles, Links


The effect of letrozole on bone age progression, predicted adult height, and adrenal gland function.

Karmazin A, Moore WV, Popovic J, Jacobson JD.

Section of Endocrinology, Department of Pediatrics, Children's Mercy Hospitals, Kansas City, MO 64108, USA.

A common problem in pediatric endocrinology is limited growth potential resulting from advancing skeletal maturation. We determined the efficacy of letrozole, an aromatase inhibitor, on delaying bone age advancement in adolescent males with limited growth potential. Twenty-four patients met the study inclusion criteria. Six patients treated with androgen were analyzed separately. Low-dose ACTH stimulation tests were performed to ascertain the effect of letrozole on adrenal gland function. In patients not on androgen, bone age progression decelerated from 1.51+/-0.57 (deltabone age/deltachronological age) before treatment to 0.68+/-0.66 on therapy (mean duration 12.4 months; p <0.0005). Predicted adult height standard deviation scores (SDS) increased from -1.41+/-0.54 to -0.64+/-0.65 on treatment (p <0.0005). Similar results were noted in androgen-treated patients. Approximately one-fourth of patients displayed subnormal responsiveness to ACTH. In summary: 1) letrozole decelerates skeletal maturation, resulting in significant increases in predicted adult height, and 2) letrozole causes mild adrenal suppression.

PMID: 15813607 [PubMed - in process]


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J Endocrinol. 2004 Jul;182(1):165-72. Related Articles, Links


The aromatase inhibitor letrozole increases epiphyseal growth plate height and tibial length in peripubertal male mice.

Eshet R, Maor G, Ben Ari T, Ben Eliezer M, Gat-Yablonski G, Phillip M.

Felsenstein Medical Research Center and Institute of Endocrinology and Diabetes, Schneider Children's Medical Center of Israel, Petah Tikva, Sackler School of Medicine, Tel Aviv University, Tel Aviv, Israel.

Sex hormones may influence longitudinal growth, either indirectly, by affecting the growth-hormone-insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) axis, or directly, by affecting changes within the epiphyseal growth plate (EGP). The aim of the present study was to investigate the effects of letrozole, an aromatase inhibitor, on longitudinal growth and changes in the EGP in vivo. Eighteen peripubertal male mice were divided into three groups. The first group was killed at baseline, the second was injected with letrozole (Femara) s.c., 2 mg/kg body weight/day, for 10 days, and the third was injected with the vehicle alone. Serum testosterone levels were found to be significantly higher in the treated group than in the controls. Letrozole induced a significant increase in body weight, tail length and serum growth hormone level, but had no significant effect on the level of serum IGF-I. On histomorphometric study, there was a significant increase (12%) in EGP height in the treated animals compared with controls. Immunohistochemistry showed a 3.4-fold letrozole-induced increase in the proliferation of the EGP chondrocytes, as estimated by the number of proliferation cell nuclear antigen-stained cells, and a decrease in the differentiation of the EGP chondrocytes, as estimated by type X collagen staining. Letrozole did not interfere with type II collagen levels. The study group also showed a twofold increase in the number of IGF-I receptor-positive cells compared with controls. In conclusion, the aromatase inhibitor, letrozole, appears to increase the linear growth potential of the EGP in mice.

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J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2003 Sep;86(3-5):345-56. Related Articles, Links


Novel treatment of short stature with aromatase inhibitors.

Dunkel L, Wickman S.

Hospital for Children and Adolescents, University of Helsinki, PO Box 281, Helsinki 00029 HUS, Finland. [email protected]

Estrogens have an essential role in the regulation of bone maturation and importantly in the closure of growth plates in both sexes. This prospective, randomized, placebo-controlled study was undertaken to evaluate whether suppression of estrogen synthesis in pubertal boys delays bone maturation and ultimately results in increased adult height. A total of 23 boys with constitutional delay of puberty (CDP) received a conventional, low-dose testosterone treatment for inducing progression of puberty. Eleven of these 23 boys were randomized to receive a specific and potent P450-aromatase inhibitor, letrozole, for suppression of estrogen action, and 12 boys were randomized to receive placebo. Estradiol concentrations in the letrozole-treated boys remained at the pretreatment level during the administration of letrozole, whereas the concentrations increased during the treatment with testosterone alone and during spontaneous progression of puberty. Testosterone concentrations increased in all groups, but during the letrozole treatment, the increase was more than fivefold higher than in the group treated with testosterone alone. The inhibition of estrogen synthesis delayed bone maturation. The slower bone maturation in the boys treated with testosterone and letrozole, despite higher androgen concentrations, than in the boys treated with testosterone indicate that estrogens are more important than androgens in regulation of bone maturation in pubertal boys. During the 18 months follow-up, an increase of 5.1 cm in predicted adult height was observed in the boys who received testosterone and letrozole, but no change was seen in the boys who received testosterone alone or in the untreated boys. This finding indicates that an increase in adult height can be attained in growing adolescent boys by inhibiting of estrogen action.
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Novel treatment of delayed male puberty with aromatase inhibitors.

Dunkel L, Wickman S.

University of Helsinki, Hospital for Children and Adolescents, Finland. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: As the evidence for the role of oestrogens in epiphyseal closure appears unequivocal, we hypothesized that boys with constitutional delay of puberty would attain greater adult height if oestrogen action was suppressed. METHODS: We conducted a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study in which we treated boys with constitutional delay of puberty with testosterone plus placebo or testosterone plus a potent fourth-generation aromatase inhibitor, letrozole. FINDINGS: Letrozole effectively inhibited oestrogen synthesis. The 17beta-oestradiol concentrations increased in the untreated group and in the testosterone/placebo-treated group, but in the testosterone/letrozole-treated group no such increase was observed until letrozole treatment was discontinued. Testosterone concentrations were threefold higher in the testosterone/letrozole-treated group than in the other groups. Within 18 months, bone age had advanced by 1.1 +/- 0.3 years in the untreated group and by 1.7 +/- 0.3 years in the testosterone/placebo-treated group, but only by 0.9 +/- 0.2 years in the testosterone/letrozole-treated group (p = 0.02 between treatment groups). Predicted adult height did not change significantly in the untreated group and in the testosterone/placebo-treated group, whereas in the testosterone/letrozole-treated group the increase was 5.1 +/- 1.2 cm (p = 0.004). CONCLUSIONS: Our findings suggest that, if oestrogen action is inhibited in growing adolescents, adult height will increase. This observation provides a rationale for studies aimed at delaying bone maturation in several growth disorders. Copyright 2002 S. Karger AG, Basel
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Lakartidningen. 2002 Jan 17;99(3):165-8. Related Articles, Links


[Growth rate can be manipulated. Estrogen production in pubertal boys can be blocked by an aromatase inhibitor]

[Article in Swedish]

Hagenas L.

Barnendokrinologiska enheten, Astrid Lindgrens barnklinik, Karolinska sjukhuset, Stockholm. [email protected]

A review of a twelve month clinical trial [1] using a new, effective aromatase inhibitor treatment in boys with delayed puberty shows that the pubertal increase in estrogen levels can be blocked, with concomitant preserved pubertal growth rate. Circulating testosterone levels are greatly enhanced during treatment due to increased gonadotrophin secretion. Despite this, bone age maturation is slow leading to an increased final height prognosis (mean 5.1 cm) for the boys treated with aromatase inhibitor.

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: J Endocrinol Invest. 2000 Dec;23(11):721-3. Related Articles, Links


Delayed closure of epiphyseal cartilages induced by the aromatase inhibitor anastrozole. Would it help short children grow up?

Faglia G, Arosio M, Porretti S.

Institute of Endocrine Sciences, Ospedale Maggiore IRCCS, University of Milan, Italy. [email protected]

Estrogens locally generated from androgen precursors due to the action of aromatase play a main role in epiphyseal cartilage fusion. Treatment with an aromatase inhibitor (anastrozole, 1 mg/day for 3 yr) in a boy previously operated on for a hamartoma causing precocious puberty and presenting with advanced bone maturation and nearly fused epiphyseal cartilages, slowed cartilage fusion consenting a higher final stature than expected (164.4 cm vs 158.4 cm). It is suggested that treatment with aromatase inhibitors, alone or in combination with rh-GH, may also be useful in children with constitutional short stature in order to delay epiphyseal closure and improve the final height.
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Estrogen suppression in males: metabolic effects.

Mauras N, O'Brien KO, Klein KO, Hayes V.

Nemours Research Programs at the Nemours Children's Clinic, Jacksonville, Florida 32207, USA. [email protected]

We have shown that testosterone (T) deficiency per se is associated with marked catabolic effects on protein, calcium metabolism, and body composition in men independent of changes in GH or insulin-like growth factor I production. It is not clear,,however, whether estrogens have a major role in whole body anabolism in males. We investigated the metabolic effects of selective estrogen suppression in the male using a potent aromatase inhibitor, Arimidex (Anastrozole). First, a dose-response study of 12 males (mean age, 16.1 +/- 0.3 yr) was conducted, and blood withdrawn at baseline and after 10 days of oral Arimidex given as two different doses (either 0.5 or 1 mg) in random order with a 14-day washout in between. A sensitive estradiol (E2) assay showed an approximately 50% decrease in E2 concentrations with either of the two doses; hence, a 1-mg dose was selected for other studies. Subsequently, eight males (aged 15-22 yr; four adults and four late pubertal) had isotopic infusions of [(13)C]leucine and (42)Ca/(44)Ca, indirect calorimetry, dual energy x-ray absorptiometry, isokinetic dynamometry, and growth factors measurements performed before and after 10 weeks of daily doses of Arimidex. Contrary to the effects of T withdrawal, there were no significant changes in body composition (body mass index, fat mass, and fat-free mass) after estrogen suppression or in rates of protein synthesis or degradation; carbohydrate, lipid, or protein oxidation; muscle strength; calcium kinetics; or bone growth factors concentrations. However, E2 concentrations decreased 48% (P = 0.006), with no significant change in mean and peak GH concentrations, but with an 18% decrease in plasma insulin-like growth factor I concentrations. There was a 58% increase in serum T (P = 0.0001), sex hormone-binding globulin did not change, whereas LH and FSH concentrations increased (P < 0.02, both). Serum bone markers, osteocalcin and bone alkaline phosphatase concentrations, and rates of bone calcium deposition and resorption did not change. In conclusion, these data suggest that in the male 1) estrogens do not contribute significantly to the changes in body composition and protein synthesis observed with changing androgen levels; 2) estrogen is a main regulator of the gonadal-pituitary feedback for the gonadotropin axis; and 3) this level of aromatase inhibition does not negatively impact either kinetically measured rates of bone calcium turnover or indirect markers of bone calcium turnover, at least in the short term. Further studies will provide valuable information on whether timed aromatase inhibition can be useful in increasing the height potential of pubertal boys with profound growth retardation without the confounding negative effects of gonadal androgen suppression.
 

noctorum

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i bet he's 14
Even if he was, it must be kind of embarassing for you that a 14 year old would have better grammar than you.

In response to the above post ^, using aromatose inhibitors to indirectly boost testosterone showed that the plates remained open for longer and therefore would have the user attain a higher adult height. Also, it caused enhanced serum test levels, but lowered IGF-1 levels?


Were there any followup studies done on the subjects for side effects (mostly endocrine problems)?

...Treatment with an aromatase inhibitor (anastrozole, 1 mg/day for 3 yr)...
Isn't that a high dose for such a long period?
 

nostawk

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Test serum increases increases as less gets aromatized and the body makes more test because estrogen levels are low ,and IGF levels fall because estrogen levels are low.

I am somewhat surprised that in some of these studies with high doses of letrozole that IGF levels dont fall to the point where growth rate is significantly affected. There more studies that also use GH with AIs but i can't look them up at home. If I find any on pubmed I will post them.

Also many of these people already had endocrine problems resulting in shorter height and some of these doses are high and for a long time.
 

noctorum

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If increased androgen levels contribute to taller height, then isn't the traditional side effect of growth plate closure a myth?
 

nostawk

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Lowered estrogen generally increases height, increased androgen doesn't necesarily increase height.

Most cycles ,comparably, are at least several times what would be a normal amount of test to be making for a person. So even with no estrogen the andrgoen levels are so high that growth could be stunted. and nolva could also stunt your growth(maybe clomid too, Im not sure)

Estrogen plays the main role in epiphyseal cartilage fusion. That is not to say that a highly androgenic compound or a large amount of a not so androgenic compound won't result in stunted growth.

and just because a compound doesn't aromatize doesn't mean it or any of its metabolites don't bind to estrogen receptors.



Also, I would like to read what some of the more knowledgable people think about this topic?
 

noctorum

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and just because a compound doesn't aromatize doesn't mean it or any of its metabolites don't bind to estrogen receptors.
Wouldn't masteron/liquidex counter that?

Also, I would like to read what some of the more knowledgable people think about this topic?
Big bump lol
 

nostawk

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Well, masteron may block the aromatase enzyme much like liquidex. This could stop other compounds from aromatizing as the enzyme will be blocked but if the compound itself binds to estrogen receptors it can't stop that. and above I said that its metabolites may bind to E receptors but more than likely these will be made by the aromatase enzyme which if blocked wont happen. and masteron is pretty androgenic so it might ba a bad idea to use if trying to avoid stunted growth.
 

noctorum

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Well, masteron may block the aromatase enzyme much like liquidex. This could stop other compounds from aromatizing as the enzyme will be blocked but if the compound itself binds to estrogen receptors it can't stop that. and above I said that its metabolites may bind to E receptors but more than likely these will be made by the aromatase enzyme which if blocked wont happen. and masteron is pretty androgenic so it might ba a bad idea to use if trying to avoid stunted growth.
Does binding to the receptors necessarily have the same effect on the plates as actual estrogen?

Masteron cannot produce estrogen, even though it binds very well with the aromatose enzyme.

Drostanolone, being 5-alpha reduced, cannot form estrogen upon interaction with the aromatase enzyme yet still shows a very high affinity for it. Because it takes up so much of the aromatase enzyme, yet is refrained from actually using it by its structural make-up, it reduces the amount of estrogen formed1 from other steroids as well because there are less aromatase enzymes to be used by those compounds to form estrogen with.

Edit: I was also under the impression that due to androgens causing primary and secondary sex characteristics, it could also have a positive (increase) effect in the height of those whose growth plates have not yet closed?
 

nostawk

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Masteron cannot produce estrogen, even though it binds very well with the aromatose enzyme.
I know, masteron doesn't bind to ER or aromatize and that it does block aromatase and is


Does binding to the receptors necessarily have the same effect on the plates as actual estrogen?
Generally speaking probably.

I was also under the impression that due to androgens causing primary and secondary sex characteristics, it could also have a positive (increase) effect in the height of those whose growth plates have not yet closed?
Probably, but too much may stunt growth. I'd think lowering estrogen would be a better way to go about increasing height than increasing androgen levels.
 
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