Potential Side Effects of extended Low/Moderate HCG use?? (swale's protocol)

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    Potential Side Effects of extended Low/Moderate HCG use?? (swale's protocol)


    Myself and certain member(s) of the AM community wondered if there were any potential side effects to be concerned with (or to look out for) when using Swale's Protocol of 500ius-1000ius/week of HCG in excess of 15weeks.

    Do you guys know any?

    I know the 500ius-1000ius dosage is next to nothing, but could side effects appear over an extended period of time (especially if you ALWAYS run hcg during every cycle)?

    Any insight is greatly welcomed...
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    Great topic

    Nobody ever talks about the potential sides of anything but AAS and PH's...so, this is a great change. Especially considering things like Nolva taken long term can be worse for you than many AAS.
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    I would love tto see this thread go somewhere as well but there is little research on it b.c. most endo's do not use swale's therapy. It's either HCG,Gel,or jections. My endo had never heard of anything close to swale's therapy and couldn't answer my question of whether or not primary hypogonadism could be caused by hcg use.(b.c. leydig cells become unresponsive to endogenous LH and only respnd to HCG)
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    x 2 (bump??)
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    I'm pretty sure the only side effect is that your ballz could become nonresponsive to the LH produced by your own pituitary. Then you would be forced to inject hcg to get your leydig cells to produce testosterone. I wish someone would chime in with the longest they have used hcg for.
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    Well I think everyone should read this casestudy I didnt write it but it has very usefull info


    Tamoxifen Blocks HCG Induced Leydig Cell Desensitization

    Posted by Nandi12 on CEM


    Tamoxifen Blocks HCG Induced Leydig Cell Desensitization
    HCG induced testicular desensitization seems to be a hot topic. There are a number of studies showing that concomitant use of Nolvadex ameliorates this. The first abstract suggests that HCG at least partially blocks the conversion of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP), a testosterone precursor, to testosterone. This effect is suppressed by Nolvadex.

    The second abstract seems to indicate that estrogen may not be the only culprit, since Nolvadex plus HCG does not increase T levels any more than HCG alone, even though the combination reduces desensitization.

    Since we are trying to avoid this desensitization so when we quit the HCG our testes respond to our endogenous LH, it makes sense to always use nolvadex with HCG to at least help the problem, if not solve it completely.


    J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1980 Nov;51(5):1026-9

    Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men.

    Smals AG, Pieters GF, Drayer JI, Boers GH, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.

    Intramuscular administration of 1500 IU hCG daily for 3 days induced a transient accumulation of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) relative to testosterone (T) in normal men, reaching its maximum 24 h after the first injection (17 OHP to T ratio, 1.7 +/- 0.3 times baseline; P < 0.01). Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect.



    Andrologia 1991 Mar-Apr;23(2):109-14

    Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.

    Levalle OA, Suescun MO, Fiszlejder L, Aszpis S, Charreau E, Guitelman A, Calandra R.

    Division Endocrinologia, Hospital Carlos Durand, Instituto de Biologia y Medicina Experimental, Buenos Aires, Argentina.

    The effect of the antiestrogen tamoxifen (Tx) on the acute and chronic hCG administration was evaluated in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) and in normal men. An hCG test (5000 IU hCG) was performed before, after two months of hCG administration (2000 IU hCG three times weekly) and after two months of hCG + Tx (2000 IU hCG three times weekly plus 20 mg/day of tamoxifen). Blood samples were obtained before and following 24 and 72 h of every test to determine T, E, 17OHP and SHBG. T increased only in HH with both treatments (X +/- SEM: Basal: 97.9 +/- 19.7; hCG: 237.7 +/- 43.2; hCG +/- Tx: 204.7 +/- 10.7 ng/100 ml). 17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization. However, the association of Tx does not improve T serum levels, suggesting that E might not be the unique factor involved in the mechanisms for testicular desensitization.
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    Good article, but the only bummer is long term use of Tamoxifen will absolutely trash your liver...So, we're back to square one again. We blocked sides of one thing by adding another thing, but we get new sides which may or may not be potentially more harmful (in the tamoxifen / hcg case, long term tamox is worse).
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    From what I understand of what SWALE has said, the 500iu-1000iu will of course be suppressive, but not enough to desensitize. As far as the body become unresponsive to LH after HCG administration...I believe that is more dose dependant than anything. LH and HCG are so similar that your testicles would not know the difference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
    Good article, but the only bummer is long term use of Tamoxifen will absolutely trash your liver...So, we're back to square one again. We blocked sides of one thing by adding another thing, but we get new sides which may or may not be potentially more harmful (in the tamoxifen / hcg case, long term tamox is worse).
    Not saying you are wrong, but this is prescribed to breast cancer patients for LONG periods of time, never heard of liver sides while used for that, the intended purpose. Wouldn't think this would be a male specific side affect???
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennon
    From what I understand of what SWALE has said, the 500iu-1000iu will of course be suppressive, but not enough to desensitize. As far as the body become unresponsive to LH after HCG administration...I believe that is more dose dependant than anything. LH and HCG are so similar that your testicles would not know the difference.
    those were my original thoughts
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    My thoughts are pretty much like my thoughts about everything. Long term or over usage will have a negative impact in some manner.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
    Good article, but the only bummer is long term use of Tamoxifen will absolutely trash your liver...
    This is a bit of a stretch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by size
    My thoughts are pretty much like my thoughts about everything. Long term or over usage will have a negative impact in some manner.
    size, do you then believe it's more dangerous running 500iu-750ius each week or 3000ius, 1500iu,etc. 3 weeks before cycle's end? (over the long haul)

    The obvious answer is prolonged usage, but it's 500ius-1000ius next to nothing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEDeoudes59
    size, do you then believe it's more dangerous running 500iu-750ius each week or 3000ius, 1500iu,etc. 3 weeks before cycle's end? (over the long haul)
    The obvious answer is prolonged usage, but it's 500ius-1000ius next to nothing?
    The truth is, I really do not know. My thoughts on the matter will be nothing but speculation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by size
    This is a bit of a stretch.
    I don't think so at all...I know a guy whose liver is going pretty damn sour right now as a result of his Tamox abuse. Yes...if he takes a few months off, he'll probably be just fine. Point is, it's toxic. I just dont want to be using tons of supps to counteract sides of other supps, each with their own list of side effects. And, nobody discusses anything but the sides of AAS, when that's probably the least of their worries--as demonstrated by the AAS users of the 50-70s eatin A50 and Dbol like candy, no PCT, etc, and still having kids and living long lives.

    Its not gonna kill you after a years use or something, but neither would Anadrol...

    And again, the key here is high dosages for extended periods of time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennon
    From what I understand of what SWALE has said, the 500iu-1000iu will of course be suppressive, but not enough to desensitize. As far as the body become unresponsive to LH after HCG administration...I believe that is more dose dependant than anything. LH and HCG are so similar that your testicles would not know the difference.
    the body is smarter than the mind. im sure it would sense the diffrence between the two after a while.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brennon
    From what I understand of what SWALE has said, the 500iu-1000iu will of course be suppressive, but not enough to desensitize. As far as the body become unresponsive to LH after HCG administration...I believe that is more dose dependant than anything. LH and HCG are so similar that your testicles would not know the difference.
    could you prehaps dig up where he discusses this concept?
    if not, it's cool... I find it very interesting.
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    With only taking a few minutes, this is what i was able to find. It's from his writeup "TRT: A Recipe for Success" which can be found here http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=19856 Doesn't really go into any long-term side effects, however.

    HCG



    Many practitioners consider this incredible hormone treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic (secondary) hypogonadism. Such certainly makes sense, as supplementing with a LH analog indeed increases testosterone production in patients who do not concurrently suffer primary hypogonadism. But often, upwards of 1000IU per day must be given to achieve the desired serum T level. Even then, for some unexplained reason, while serum T levels may be adequately elevated, the patients simply do not report realization of the benefits of TRT, when HCG is administered as sole TRT. You also run the risk of inducing LH insensitivity at that dosage, and therefore may actually cause primary hypogonadism while attempting to treat secondary hypogonadism. HCG, especially at higher doses, also dramatically increases aromatase activity, thus inappropriately elevating estrogens. Personally, I recommend never giving more than 500IU of HCG at a time.



    A real benefit of HCG is that it will prevent testicular atrophy. I do not think we should ignore the aesthetics of that consideration. Your patients will feel the same way.



    Quote Originally Posted by CEDeoudes59
    could you prehaps dig up where he discusses this concept?
    if not, it's cool... I find it very interesting.
  

  
 

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