Retainability of Gains

[S.C.]

Hey guys,

Through my research, I have learnt a lot about the strength properties of various steroids. There is something that still eludes me though, which is the retainability of the strength gains. I really would like to know more about this, as I have some little information about it so far.

Questions

1. How much do you generally lose in terms of strength gained on cycle, when you go off? (i.e. 1/3 of the gains, etc.)
2. What has given you the most retainable strength gains? For example, anavar being more retainable than anadrol.
3. All in all, at the end of the cycles, when you are off cycle, are you stronger than you were before you cycled?

I would really appreciate any help I can get. Also, I am assuming good PCT is done on all the cycles.

Thanks,

S.C.

 

[bigman420]

pct is done after every cycle, no matter what...with a good pct, i mean good, you could retain 90% of youir gains, even strength wise

 

[theslime]

I have found that strength gains were more keepable than size gains for me. I mainly cycle high-dose anavar though. I also use insulin off-cycle

 

[Beelzebub]

I have found that strength gains were more keepable than size gains for me.

same here. i generally lose about 20-25% of my size during PCT but maintain or even increase strength. my guesstimation is the size factor is nothing more than water weight.

 

[S.C.]

Really? So I can expect to retain much of the strength that I gain?

 

[Cardinal]

This is something I am very interested in also. I have run 3 ph/ps cycles and am on second AAS cycle. My current conclusion is that without very strong CNS stimulation either through AAS or other Supplements, retaining strength over the long-term is going to be a major problem for me.

1) Pushing work, I can easily lose 2/3 of it or more in no time flat (we are talking a week or two after the CNS stimulation is completely gone. There one week, completely gone within 2 weeks. No change in training.). I tend to retain more on my pulling work in general, but still lose a good bit, maybe 1/3 to 1/2 on some lifts.

2) Compounds that produce very little strength gains for me at all tend to also be the compounds that yield the most keepable strength gains. Test E is a good example. Even after putting on 50 lbs keepable bodyweight with at least 15-20 lbs muscle, I was not much stronger than before the cycle. Maybe gained a lb strength per lb muscle roughly. I could easily see slacking off ever so slightly and losing even those strength gains.

3) That is the goal. So far on average, I am stronger overall, much stronger than before I started cycling, not on every lift though. Over the long term however, building and maintaining muscle seems much easier for me on account of my good eating genes.

Before you decide that I just have no clue about training and should have done way better (which is to some extent true)...I have always done proper pct and I tend to do a really good job at keeping my size. When I went from 260 or 270lb down to 245 after a big bulk, I lost maybe 1/2 inch off both arms. Presumably this is mostly water anyhow. To my knowledge I have yet to lose any size otherwise after a cycle of steroids. If I did it hasn't been noticeable.

 

[Gethuge]

This just varies way too much from person to person and from different substances. If you were to use something like test e for example you will likely gain a lot of size and some appreciable strength. However when you lose alot of the water weight after the cycle your strength will likely deminish to a reasonable extent as well. In general (at least for me) gear that causes the greatest water weight gain causes the greatest strength and size gains but also a more appreciable of strength is lost post cycle. However the NET gain from different drugs seems to be roughly the same after PCT. That is to say that test will cause a greater strenght and size increase than EQ while on cycle but more of the size and strength from test will be lost post cycle. The net gain from both is not a lot different. Hope that made sense. :think:

 

[ss01]

There is of course a lot of water/glycogen loss which explain the SIZE loss at the end of the cycle. As far as strength is concerned, well, I'm going to go all technical, but consider this :

1. muscle protein is synthesized by the myonucleii (muscle cells are the only ones that have more than one nucleus per cell).
2. the number of nucleii per cell (myonuclear number) is variable : it can be increased, but not decreased.
3. increases in the myonuclear number are achieved through merging of satellite cells into the muscle cell.
4. this merging is triggerred by many factors, the most important being intracellular IGF-1 concentration.
5. proliferation of satellite cells is achieved mainly through systemic IGF-1. Intramuscular injections of IGF-1 are in this category.
6. the RATE at which the myonucleii do their synthesis of protein is mainly regulated via testosterone.

So, this explains a lot : why you gain strength more than size on androgens, why you lose it : you have more contractile protein than you can regenerate because after your androgen cycle, your myonucleii downshift.

Actually, you CAN keep the contractile protein, if you don't tear it down more than you can regenerate it after your cycle. This is difficult in part because you are used to a level of training and also because the androgens wear off gradually.

You will notice that this also implies that satellite cells merge more with the myocyte during an androgen cycle. This is good, provided you DO have satellite cells. Repeated androgen cycles will have them all merge with the myocyte and have little potential for growth left. Do a couple months of IGF-1 and the next gear cycle will surely kick a$$ because you will have triggered massive satellite-cell growth.

So I do think there is the unavoidable water/glycogen loss, but also, if you are not CAREFUL, contractile tissue loss. Strength decrease after the androgen cycle should mean something in this regard. OTOH, there is no study with people who are stopping androgen cycle and doing 3-4 sets per bodypart per week during and after PCT and how much strength they retain, so of course it's more or less guesswork at that end of things.

Sorry for the length of this, hopefully it was interesting for someone.

 

[pestis]

There is of course a lot of water/glycogen loss which explain the SIZE loss at the end of the cycle. As far as strength is concerned, well, I'm going to go all technical, but consider this :

1. muscle protein is synthesized by the myonucleii (muscle cells are the only ones that have more than one nucleus per cell).
2. the number of nucleii per cell (myonuclear number) is variable : it can be increased, but not decreased.
3. increases in the myonuclear number are achieved through merging of satellite cells into the muscle cell.
4. this merging is triggerred by many factors, the most important being intracellular IGF-1 concentration.
5. proliferation of satellite cells is achieved mainly through systemic IGF-1. Intramuscular injections of IGF-1 are in this category.
6. the RATE at which the myonucleii do their synthesis of protein is mainly regulated via testosterone.

So, this explains a lot : why you gain strength more than size on androgens, why you lose it : you have more contractile protein than you can regenerate because after your androgen cycle, your myonucleii downshift.

Actually, you CAN keep the contractile protein, if you don't tear it down more than you can regenerate it after your cycle. This is difficult in part because you are used to a level of training and also because the androgens wear off gradually.

You will notice that this also implies that satellite cells merge more with the myocyte during an androgen cycle. This is good, provided you DO have satellite cells. Repeated androgen cycles will have them all merge with the myocyte and have little potential for growth left. Do a couple months of IGF-1 and the next gear cycle will surely kick a$$ because you will have triggered massive satellite-cell growth.

So I do think there is the unavoidable water/glycogen loss, but also, if you are not CAREFUL, contractile tissue loss. Strength decrease after the androgen cycle should mean something in this regard. OTOH, there is no study with people who are stopping androgen cycle and doing 3-4 sets per bodypart per week during and after PCT and how much strength they retain, so of course it's more or less guesswork at that end of things.

Sorry for the length of this, hopefully it was interesting for someone.

Real interesting read SS01. I would be interested in hearing some input from Bobo or Dr.D or some of you other science types.
Hailz,
Pestis

 

[Boss_K]

I loose strength for sure, and definately size....