Wondering if taking a serving of proliver once a day while on cycle of Superdrol and Max LMG is ok? Will it hinder gains?
why would it hinder gains? I just started an SD cycle and am taking nac w/ milk thistle. Most people running sd are doing the same.
it's a good idea to take these, but you need more milk thistle IMO.
no point in taking milk thistle during SD cycle. It is an anti-androgen, and will hinder results. Wait until you are done wtih the cycle before starting Milk This. Your gains with thank you, and your liver wont be cussing you.
how about the nac?Originally Posted by BOHICA
nac is an antioxident, it can be taken on cycle.
Do oyu have any studies showing it's anti-androgen effect? I thought Milk thistle inhibited an enzyme that could potentially have interactions or lack thereof with androgens.Originally Posted by BOHICA
I dont have any studies, but Dr. D was the one telling me about it. I pretty much go wtih what he says regarding chemicals and mixing and matching. This was in a PM he sent me when I wanted to run SD for 3 weeks, then Nolva weeks 4&5. "It's an anti-androgen, and the SD ain't bad enough to justify it (check out SS or b5150's logs) the nolva is worse liver killer you have in that whole cycle."
I think he's fine as long as his Milk Thistle is standardized to 80% Sylimarin.Originally Posted by milwood
Milk thistle hindering gains? Anti-androgen? This is news to me.
Silybum inactivates cytochromes P450 (P450) 3A4 and 2C9 preventing the metabolism of testosterone to 6-beta-hydroxytestosterone. This would seem to potentiate testosterone. Perhaps this is way off though.
Drug Metab Dispos. 2004 Jun;32(6):587-94. Related Articles, Links
Silybin inactivates cytochromes P450 3A4 and 2C9 and inhibits major hepatic glucuronosyltransferases.
Sridar C, Goosen TC, Kent UM, Williams JA, Hollenberg PF.
Department of Pharmacology, The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109, USA.
Silybin, a major constituent of the milk thistle, is used to treat several liver disorders. Silybin inactivated purified, recombinant cytochromes P450 (P450) 3A4 and 2C9 in a mechanism-based manner. The inactivations were time-, concentration-, and NADPH-dependent. The inactivation of the 7-benzyloxy-4-(trifluoromethyl-)coumarin O-debenzylation activity (P450 3A4) was characterized by a K(I) of 32 microM, a k(inact) of 0.06 min(-1), and a t(1/2) of 14 min. Testosterone metabolism to 6-beta-hydroxytestosterone (P450 3A4) was also inactivated with a K(I) of 166 microM, a k(inact) of 0.08 min(-1), and a t(1/2) of 9 min. The 7-ethoxy-4-(trifluoromethyl)coumarin O-deethylation activity of purified human P450 2C9 was inactivated with a K(I) of 5 microM, a k(inact) of 0.14 min(-1), and a t(1/2) of 7 min. Parallel loss of heme was observed with both P450s. Activity of both P450 enzymes was not recovered after removal of silybin either by dialysis or by spin gel filtration. In addition, silybin inhibited the glucuronidation of 7-hydroxy-4-trifluoromethylcoumarin catalyzed by recombinant hepatic UDP-glucuronosyltransferases (UGTs) 1A1, 1A6, 1A9, 2B7, and 2B15, with IC(50) values of 1.4 microM, 28 microM, 20 microM, 92 microM, and 75 microM, respectively. Silybin was a potent inhibitor of UGT1A1 and was 14- and 20-fold more selective for UGT1A1 than for UGT1A9 and UGT1A6, respectively. Thus, careful administration of silybin with drugs primarily cleared by P450s 3A4 or 2C9 is advised, since drug-drug interactions cannot be excluded. The clinical significance of in vitro UGT1A1 inhibition is unknown.
I keep seeing people refer to milk thistle and how it hinders gains. I can only attribute all of this to Poliquin's reference (made famous by the Heavy Metal Detox log).
While this may be true to some degree, I dont see how it could significantly alter levels enough to make any difference. Poliquin is known for doing crazy and extreme things (super extreme megadoses of IV vitC). Many of his ideas seem radical to the mainstream. I would not be quick to label him as the ultimate authority in AAS related health/science. Still, his remarks on milk thistle are interesting. AA (X-factor) is a known link in building muscle (althogh the supplement doesnt seem to do well). Inhibiting this and "messing" with androgen receptor sites doesnt sound good. The only problem is I have never heard of this (any of it) from anyone besides Poliquin.WL: Can you explain what you mean by a detox protocol?
CP: They use a program to get rid of the metabolites. So like calciumd-
glucurate.They’ll use what they basically call “pushers”,which are
large injections of detoxing compounds,and they use mainly botanical
liver detoxifiers that don’t mess up the androgen sites like milk thistle,
which will actually decrease steroid absorption.
WL: I also know that milk thistle has an anti-inflammatory effect,
inhibiting the conversion of arachidonic acid to active prostiglandins.
This also would be a negative for muscle growth.
CP: Yeah, milk thistle is not popular. Guys definitely stick with
other botanicals.They also use botanicals to increase free testosterone
during the detox or clean-up phase.
In a semi-related note I have read that undenatured whey protien isolate is MUCH more effective than what most people assume. Besides being good for numerous other reasons it also boosts GSH (Glutathione, master antioxidant) levels considerably higher than anything else available (NAC, MT, ALA..). Until now I had not heard of uWPI used in regard to this subject. There is said to be a great deal of valid info on Pubmed regarding it but I havent ever looked and Im running out of time now. I have no doubt that uWPI is amazing but its so expensive. Im in college, 5lb of ON is about all I can validate at the moment.
Bump for more info... Bobo, Dr. D, anyone?
That which does not kill us makes us stronger - Friedrich Nietzsche