Input welcomed on plan of *long* 4AD/1AD/Superdrol cycle (12 weeks)
- 05-31-2005, 05:25 AM
Input welcomed on plan of *long* 4AD/1AD/Superdrol cycle (12 weeks)
I'd like to see a few people's opinions on what I am planning to start this coming Friday. I have some PH's that I got earlier in the year, and originally I had planned on doing 12 weeks of 4AD, and for the first 6 weeks stacking it with 1AD, and the last 6 with Superdrol. After getting a bit of feedback and really thinking about all the SD logs I've seen, I decided that gains would be better by breaking the SD into two shorter cycles with 1AD thrown in the middle. Now, let me also state that my last PH cycle was 4 weeks of: 4AD 1200mgs, 1AD 600mgs, Superdrol 20/30mgs, MOHN 36mgs, 3-Alpha 300mgs, and it was a cutter. Went well, no sides except for the feelings of some slight depression. This *could* have been because it was the first winter that I was going through in 7 years, and I moved into a place where I don't have any windows, and I'm really affected by the sun. ANYWAYS, here's what I'm looking at:
(and yes, it's all oral pills, it's all I have)
1-AD comes in 100mg caps
4-AD comes in 300mg caps
Superdrol comes in 10mg caps
W1- 4AD - 900mg, SD - 10mg
W2- 4AD - 900 mg, SD - 20mg
W3- 4AD - 1200 mg, SD - 20mg
W4- 4AD - 1200 mg, SD - 20mg, 1AD - 600mg
W5- 4AD - 1200 mg, 1AD - 600mg
W6- 4AD - 1200 mg, 1AD - 700mg
W7- 4AD - 1500 mg, 1AD - 700mg
W8- 4AD - 1500 mg, 1AD - 800mg
W9- 4AD - 1200 mg, SD - 20mg, 1AD - 800mg
W10- 4AD - 1200 mg, SD - 30mg
W11- 4AD - 900mg, SD - 30mg
W12- 4AD - 900mg, SD - 30mg
I REALLY like the setup of how everything blends into one another, the only thing I'm a little shaky on, are the doseages.. Particularly, do you think I should up the dose of the 4AD sooner, and take it up to 1800 mgs so I don't encounter any depression from lack of Test? Does the 1AD doseage sound good? I like the Superdrol doseages where it is at. Let me also state that I will be taking DHB with eatch dose of the PH's. It's from ASR, and eatch cap is 300mg of DHB. (DHB is the thing in Grapefruit juice. Basically, DHB attaches to the enzymes that are responsible for metabolizing oral medications in the first pass metabolism, so you get more out of your orals, because the enzymes that destroy them in the first pass are already occupied by the DHB.)
Crazy you say? Well, let me give you some more info. I have already scheduled a baseline blood draw that I will have taken a day or two before this starts. I got it through Health Tests Direct, and I ordered the Lipid Panel, Liver Panel, and Testosterone (Total) tests, so I'll be getting total T, HDL, LDL, total Cholesterol, ALT and AST numbers. I plan on getting another blood draw either in the middle of the cycle, OR at the end of the first SD mini-cycle *and* before the 2nd one, and DEFINATELY one after the cycle ends, and then *again* after PCT is over. I also keep VERY DETAILED records of everything. My weight is taken every single morning with no clothes on first thing after I wake up, before I've eaten anything and after I've gone to the bathroom, with the *same* scale. I measure my own bodyfat with my own calipers (3-site skinfold, which I've been doing every 3 days or so for the last 6 months), tape measurements of bodyparts, and digital pictures.
Diet will be roughly 1,000 cals over maintenance. I currently weigh 176 lbs. at 9.7% bodyfat. The breakdown is 400g Protein, 300g Carbs, 75-85g Fat. My diet has been these numbers for the past 2 weeks, and although I have not seen the scale go up or my skinfold measurements go up, I have noticed the effect in the mirror, it appears that I am "smoothing" out a bit. Previously, the diet was 400 cals less (350g Protein, 250g Carbs, 75g Fat), and that diet had kept my weight the same, but I was seeing a *very* slight decrease in skinfold measurements (about a 3mm total loss over 6 weeks). Before that, I was cutting. I am EXTREMELY anal with my food intake. I weigh EVERYTHING. I weigh my protein scoops for pete's sake. (hey, the scooper lies to you :P the bottle says 30 grams weight, sometimes those scoops are only 26 grams of weight. It adds up over the day!) My diet is very clean food that I prepare in advance, lean protein sources, and low GI carbs. Egg whites, lean ground beef, lowfat cottage cheese, chicken/turkey breast, lean cuts of beef, tuna, CarbCountdown fatfree Milk, oatmeal, brown rice, red kidney beans, sweet potatoes, apples, plums, pears, bananas, EVOO, Udo's Choice Oil, and of course, Whey Protein. (Like I said, I weigh/measure everything. My digital scale is my friend!) This breaks down into 4 whole food meals, 2 half food/half shake meals, and 2 shake meals. 7 are taken/eaten during the day, and I wake up in the middle of the night and slam down a protein shake. Having said all that, I might decide to up the cals by another 300 or so after I see how the weight is changing, and also I'm sure that after gaining 10 or so pounds I'll need to increase food intake anyways to continue gaining.
SUPPLEMENTS: Since this is a *long* cycle, I'm going to be taking many things that are anti-oxidants, things for liver support, cholesterol support, things for blood pressure, kidneys. Here's the main list of supps:
Alcar, Taurine, Green tea extract, CLA, Idebenone, Policosanal, Rhodilia, Celery seed extract, NAC, Red Yeast Rice, CoQ10, Milk Thistle, C12 extract (twinlab blood pressure control), Allicin (garlic), Saw Palmetto, Hawthorn Berry, Fish Oil, Multi-vit, Vit-C, Dandelion root
Cissus Quadrangularis, Celedrin, Glucosamine and Chondroitin, DHB (the stuff from grapefruit juice), CEE, Whey Protein I also thought about included ReboundXT at a low dose (1 pill) ed, or eod in the middle of the 12 weeks when the 4ad dose is high to curb estrogen sides if any. Thoughts on this?
I'll ALSO be taking Designer Supp's: ActivaTe. I think using this while on cycle will help out even more.
I think that's everything.. may have missed something. AS FOR PCT, I already have Nolva and ReboundXT ON HAND, as well as Lean Extreme, and basically every single supp listed above will continue INTO pct as well, and it looks like I'll be getting some Fenugreek as well.
Training: Currently I am in the hands of a *very* capable trainer. Iron Addict is training me, and I have made more gains with him in the past 8 weeks than I had made on my own the previous *16* weeks! My MAIN focus right now is on strength gain, but of course I'd also like to see the size come along with it! This week I am re-testing my 1 rep max Bench, Squat, and Deadlift, and *after* I test them is when I am going to start this cycle, and IA will be re-writting my routine based on the info of what I will be doing, and to add in a bit more hypertrophy. Basically, it is (currently, and probably the same coming next as well) 3 days a week of lifting in what he likes to call a hybrid "powerbuilding" program. It's a very modified Westside Barbell type of routine. 2 days a week of moderate intensity cardio, and 2 days of pulling a weighted sled around outside.
Goals: Like I just stated, my *main* focus is on strength gain, but I'd also *really* like to see a damn good size increase as well.
So, it's pretty late, and I *think* I covered just about everything. Please give me your input on all of this. Would really like to hear what Lean One and Dr. D think on this. Allright, thanks for reading everyone!
(edit - test)
Last edited by RedSwan78; 06-06-2005 at 02:11 AM.
- 05-31-2005, 06:07 AM
- 05-31-2005, 09:13 AM
That is twice as long as a PH/PS cycle should be. You'll gain and KEEP much more by doing 2 cycles, separated by PCT and time off. Your lipids, etc. are gonna suffer, and your gains will slow down considerably over that time. That's why you won't find people doing 12 weeks on PH/PS's. Just trying to help, glad you asked.
05-31-2005, 09:19 AM
05-31-2005, 06:03 PM
My PCT is already stated in the original post.
Just got back from testing my 1 rep max bench, in 8 weeks, I added 40 pounds to my bench! Thanks Iron Addict! I test my 1 rep max Squat and Deadlift on Friday, and then AFTER I get home from the gym, I'll be starting my PH cycle. (doing it *after* because I need the lifts to be done "clean" so it's a fair representation of what I can do without any assistance).
05-31-2005, 06:12 PM
Like others have already stated, I think your lipids are going to get hammered. With 12 weeks on, you might want to throw some HCG in there.
IMO, this cycle sucks. It's too long, will be hard on the heart, kidneys and cholesterol. With all the ancillaries you'll have to take to keep it from becoming a complete train wreck, you'd be better off saving the money and skipping the cycle.
With a good trainer why even bother with them. You've gained 40lbs on your bench without them. Just stay natural as long as gains keep coming.
05-31-2005, 06:17 PM
Well, another thing to think about, is that I WILL have the option of STOPPING the cycle at the end of the 8th week (before the SD starts up again) based on the bloodwork results. I think I'll probably end up getting bloodwork both at the end of the 4th week, and near the end of the 8th week (so that I get results before I add the SD back in). If it looks good, I can continue, if it looks horrible, I'll stop it there... how does that sound? I *do* want to be responsible and not hurt myself here and all..
05-31-2005, 07:16 PM
What's the rush? You seem to have thought this out but I just don't see why do such a long oral cycle?
If long cycles were great, don't you think you'd see other people doing 8-12 weeks? You might want to do a search on short cycles. There are some very good points in it you might want to consider.
Short cycles, some thoughts
05-31-2005, 07:33 PM
05-31-2005, 08:19 PM
try this:Originally Posted by wojo
1. 4AD, 1AD
2. 4AD, 1AD, SD
3. 4AD, 1AD, SD
4. 4AD, 1AD, SD
5. 4AD, 1AD, MAX
6. 4AD, 1AD, MAX
7. 4AD, 1AD, MAX
you'll maximize SD effects with 3 weeks, frontloading the 4AD and 1AD, and dropping those at the end will let you harden up and dry out nicely at the end of your cycle. You could run the 1AD through week 8 if you want.
This is just a suggestion based on my experience, having run all of these compounds with nice gains.
05-31-2005, 08:25 PM
see i hear a lot of talk about frontloading 4-ad..never had a prob..it works real quick with me i wanna run the 4-ad till the end because my libido will be shot with both 1-ad and lmg the sd is also designed in this stack to kick start it..then at the 4 week mark the lmg should be kicking in nicely..although i am debating keeping the sd at 3..i might also limit 1-ad to 6 weeks
05-31-2005, 08:27 PM
Your blood work is not going to look good . Trust me. I had blood work after 3 weeks of sd. Also look at Deoudes thread 3 on 2 off 3 on. May be you'll learn something.Originally Posted by RedSwan78
05-31-2005, 08:50 PM
For 1/5th of the money that is gonna cost you get some test that will actually give you results and not destroy your liver in the process.
05-31-2005, 08:55 PM
06-01-2005, 05:16 PM
yup. oral 4-ad isnt quite like test, even at 1500mg/day. get some test e and jumpstart 2-3 weeks with SD if you want to do a long cycle - should give great gains. optionally, finish with SD or max lmg weeks 10-12.Originally Posted by Gills224
06-01-2005, 06:09 PM
now that sounds like a pretty good plan. Still might be a little taxing, but spreading the SD out very much, or kicking the cycle with SD, ending with MAX would help. I guess the 4AD thing would give you the test, but you'd have to eat about 3g or smear about 1g on t/d daily to match what Test E could do, right? Your cycle could be:Originally Posted by same_old
1-12 Test E
that might be a pretty nice run.
06-01-2005, 07:33 PM
Can I buy test at GNC?
Oh, wait, I can't!?!?
You, Gills and same old, realize, it's legal issue for some people, but you talk about it like you can buy test at Wall-Mart.
06-01-2005, 07:36 PM
06-01-2005, 07:40 PM
06-01-2005, 07:42 PM
06-01-2005, 07:44 PM
That doesn't make any sense. PH's are convert to AAS and the long v. short cycle debate is ongoing and neither side has proven their case. If an AAS cycle can be run for 12 weeks, then a PH cycle can as well...(not to mention, SD is a full fledged steroid).Originally Posted by milwood
12 weeks is a long cycle, however, and could be very suppressive. So, I would consider running a very well planned PCT.
The one thing I wanted to point out was that htere seems like no reason to taper the dosages "down" toward the end of the cycle of the 4AD. I can see tapering up, but not down. There is no real benifit from what I"ve read to tapering down.
In summary, the cycle looks good, have a good PCT and don't taper down the 4AD. Eat good, train hard, and you'll grow.
06-01-2005, 07:51 PM
But, just b/c SD trashed lipids, doesn't mean that 4AD and 1AD are going to. They may not even keep the lipid level supressed (probably won't if I had to bet) to where SD brought them down to.Originally Posted by DmitryWI
This is akin to saying that taking Test orally for 12 weeks after 4 weeks dbol is a bad idea b/c hte cycle is too long...think about it guys.
EDIT: RedSwan, you're working with IA. Ask him about the cycle, man...it looks like you've thought it out very thoroughly and I'm sure he'll give you the thumbs up on it (unless you're doing this behind his back and don't want him to know )
06-01-2005, 08:10 PM
I would think HCG would be a must during the cycle but there would go the whole legal aspect of the cycle. Then you're back at a test cyp/e and sd cycle.Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
I don't see how this cycle could be a good thing. Why wouldn't 2 cycles split up be better-both for overall health and HPTA recovery. People run 12-16 weekers of test because you feel great on it. I don't think you can say the same of these orals.
06-01-2005, 08:21 PM
For HPTA health, yes, it is probably a better. For gains, not necessarily at all. I was mostly making the point that it made so sense ot say that "this cycle is too short of a PH cycle".
4AD is the PH to test. It's a great base for that cycle. It's also illegal now, so the legality of the cycle is already out the window. But,then again, he'd have to start pinning, too. If he had access, HCG is always a good option.
12 weeks should be fine with no HCG. And then again, it all comes down to the argument of short v long cycles again and which is better.
06-01-2005, 08:24 PM
I have no problem with first 4 weeks of SD (also I woudn't go over 3 weeks), but another 4 weeks of SD in the end would be too much. And I agree, I don't think 1-ad/4-ad will make lipids worse and he can restore then while running 1-ad/4-ad, but 4 weeks in between not long enough break.Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
Also I woudn't run 12 weeks without HCG.
Here's what I think to do in a few months.
06-01-2005, 08:32 PM
I hear you, but you can't buy 4AD or 1AD legally either!Originally Posted by DmitryWI
I assume that the cycle idea was using what he already has. The Test E thing was just reacting to someone's idea on what (I think) WOULD be a viable 12 weeker. It would be using Test as a base, not 12 weeks of oral PH's (8 of which would be with SD as well). That's a lot of SD by anyone's standards, ans a lot of oral PH/PS's altogether. Makes much more sense with Test for one thing, and with 3 weeks of SD at a time IMO, that's all.
06-01-2005, 08:35 PM
06-01-2005, 08:38 PM
Looks good dmitry...I actually didnt see the last 4 weeks of SD, but I dont find it too troublesome, personally. I wouldn't recommend him doing that often though.
Liver values aren't a big concern, so just some RYR and some cardio between wks 4-8 adn he should be okay.
Hell, most peoplew ere running SD 6 weeks straight when it first came out haahahaha
That and, well, over time I keep meeting people who are getting good bloodwork and are still in good health that have taken or are taking what you and i would consider ungoldy amoutns of AAS (including orals like ADrol up to 200mg/day for long periods of time). Now, I definintely dont' recommend that to anyone and very much feel that it is unsafe...however, lets just say my fear of orals has greatily diminshed.
Not only that, but I read a study a long while back about an unhealty 60lb chinese girl who was being treated with Dbol at 90mg/day for 6 years along with her current declining health condition. Well, despite being 60lbs on 90mg/day of dbol in a state of indefinite decline of her health, she lived 6 years...LOL.
06-01-2005, 08:55 PM
It's **** load of d-bol for such a little girl. Wow!Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
Oh, lets not forget, SD stays in your system for 5-6 days after your last dose, so when Redswan wants to run 4weeks it's more like 5 weeks 3 weeks break and then another almost 5 weeks, not good idea IMO.
06-01-2005, 09:08 PM
people are doing 3 on 3 off 3on again and in 21 days HDL gets down to 10's or lower (it's not getting any lower than that). So, that's technically 4 on 2 off 4 on....if you look at it that way.
Both are gonna trash the choesterol levels. Best get it over with in one big nasty cycelt han spread them out, IMHO.
06-01-2005, 09:34 PM
But as soon as you finish one big nasty cycle you want to start another big and even nastier cycle. LOL
06-02-2005, 03:13 AM
06-02-2005, 04:12 AM
Hey there everybody,
To address a couple of points that have come up and perhaps give a bit more of an explanation to some things:
Yes, this is planned to use what I already have. I got some PH's to use "later in the year" before the ban, and this represents what I have. So yes, while 1AD and 4AD are illegal now, I bought them back when they *where* legal so that's how I *have* them now. Sure it *is* "bending the law", but it's a "bending" that I am currently comfortable with.
Why can't I (why don't I want to) break this up into two smaller cycles with pct inbetween? Let's just say that it's a "timing" issue in regards to the possibility of a drug test/Career. Not saying anything further, I'd like to keep that part of my life private please. Thank you for understanding.
In regards to the supplements that will be used along with it, I run almost all of that stuff now as it is. (the Celery, RYR, CoQ10, Milk Thistle, C12, Allicin, Saw Palmetto, Hawthorn Berry, Fish oil, and DHB are the things that I DO NOT already run and had to "add" into all of the other things that I *am* already running. Although, I stopped taking RXT and ActivaTe about 1.5 weeks ago to let things kind of "normalize" a bit before starting this)
Kwyckemynd00, about the tapering down of the 4AD, that's one of the reasons why I put this thread up. I wasn't too sure what to do about it, and I've seen some people did do it, some didn't. I figured with this long being on, it might help coming off be easier? Also, I didn't want massive estrogen problems, and it seemed that lowering the dose of the 4AD at the end would help with lowering the estrogen that I'd have to deal with going into PCT (that being having the highest dose of 4AD suddenly just drop off to none at all, having alot of 4AD converting over to test and aromatizing to estrogen, and then coming off everything, having no test, and *lots* of estrogen around). It's also why I'm considering adding in a low dose of ReboundXT around the middle/end of the cycle....?
Also, I *have* talked to IA about everything. He's all thumbs up for the 12 weeker (he just wishes that I had transdermal 4AD, he even gave me an experiment to try to see if I could get the 4AD to sink in oil in the oven, it was a no-go [modified cornstarch is used as a filler ] so can't make it into a trans. He's still fine with it though). The thing is, from a legal standpoint, he can't/won't comment on my doseages or anything. That's another reason why I posted this up here for some input from everybody else. That's also why I'm not starting this untill AFTER I get home from the gym on Friday, after I retest my 1rep max Squat and Deadlift in a hormone-free clean state, so that he can get the info of where we need to go with my training next.
PCT, as mentioned, will consist of Nolva, ReboundXT, Lean Extreme (for cortisol curbing), and Fenugreek. Thought about possibly adding in some PS (phosphatidyl serine), and I need to read up on DHEA to see if that should be added as well. (and of course, like I said, all of the other supps listed in the original post WILL continue into PCT as well)
Well, have to go get directions to the place where I"m getting my blood drawn for my baseline tomorrow and then head off to sleep!
06-02-2005, 06:27 AM
I can't address the estrogen rebound concern you have. It *seems* logical, but I would think that a good AI would take care of your concerns. You do have RXT and Nolva, right? So, you've got the AI and the SERM
I "personally" wouldn't worry about that portion of the recovery considering you have a great SERM and a great AI*** on hand that also work wonders for getting natty test up. I'd be more concerned with PCT and recovering from a cycle that could give a nice smash to your HPTA. But, it appears your PCT was well thought out....
Looks good to me...put it this way.
If it looked "bad" you would have had 30000 ppl on here telling you how bad it was. When it's good, it's just kinda looked at and then "on to the next thread", so that's why you're not getting more responses.
Bummer the 4AD isn't transdermal. What brand is it?
Last edited by kwyckemynd00; 06-02-2005 at 08:16 PM.
06-02-2005, 03:20 PM
thinking a little more critically about all this....
i've run oral 4-ad VERY high - it doesnt work like test, not even test base (ie TNE) which is what it converts to...TNE is nowhere near as wet/bloaty, and all forms of short-estered test "seem" more anabolic than 4-ad (i'm not counting 4-ad-cyp which i heard great things about)
i agree that 12 weeks without HCG will be a little bit hard on the boys, but it isnt a huge deal, guys do it all the time.
between the 1-ad and SD, you're gonna have a ton of anabolism the whole way through, so i expect you'll grow a ton. i would personally only run the SD weeks 1-3 and 8-10 w/ 1-ad weeks 3-8 and cut the cycle down 2 weeks, if you're set on using whatcha got. this keeps you from wasting SD (which i reckon that 4th week will be), helps the lipids out a good bit, and prevents your nuts from being mistaken for butterscotch jellybeans (very dangerous if you live with a midget with a sweet tooth)
06-02-2005, 08:09 PM
Kwyckemynd00,Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
Yes I already have the Nolva and RebountXT (and LXT for that matter) on hand and ready to go.
Thinking about it, you are right with what you said about if it looked horrible there'd be alot more posts slamming it.
The 4AD is Ergopharm's oral version. So what do you think about the dosing of the 4AD then? Should I keep it as is up till it hits 1500, and then instead of bringing it back down just let it run at 1500 till it's done, or?
Same_old, how high did you run the oral 4AD? Above 1500mgs a day? 1800mgs? (also, how long did you keep it high?)
06-02-2005, 08:14 PM
Lets figure it out
1500mg/day * 5% oral bioavailability * 25% conversion = 18.75mg test/ day, this adds up to about 130mg test / wk which would be closer to about 164mg/wk of Test C or E/wk (b/c cyp and enan esters are approx 1/5 the weight of the total hormone--off the top of my head??).
Now, consider the 4AD has some activity without conversion, you'll probably see decent results from that....
How much 4AD do you have, bro???
06-02-2005, 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
Also, I'll be taking DHB with/before I take the PH's, so in theory it should increase the bioavailability of them by some amount.
06-02-2005, 08:48 PM
06-02-2005, 10:32 PM
use all the conversion you want....high dose oral 4-ad just doesnt do that much. enanthate ester is 31% of the weight, btw.Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
i wouldnt even bother with 164mg/week of test, even if it was "the real deal"
and by the way, 4-ad converts @ 16% in the bloodstream, not 25%...so using your math, it's 84mg/week.
not to say i dont like oral 4-ad...but i dont use it to replace test.
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