Input welcomed on plan of *long* 4AD/1AD/Superdrol cycle (12 weeks)

RedSwan78

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Hey everyone,

I'd like to see a few people's opinions on what I am planning to start this coming Friday. I have some PH's that I got earlier in the year, and originally I had planned on doing 12 weeks of 4AD, and for the first 6 weeks stacking it with 1AD, and the last 6 with Superdrol. After getting a bit of feedback and really thinking about all the SD logs I've seen, I decided that gains would be better by breaking the SD into two shorter cycles with 1AD thrown in the middle. Now, let me also state that my last PH cycle was 4 weeks of: 4AD 1200mgs, 1AD 600mgs, Superdrol 20/30mgs, MOHN 36mgs, 3-Alpha 300mgs, and it was a cutter. Went well, no sides except for the feelings of some slight depression. This *could* have been because it was the first winter that I was going through in 7 years, and I moved into a place where I don't have any windows, and I'm really affected by the sun. ANYWAYS, here's what I'm looking at:

(and yes, it's all oral pills, it's all I have)
1-AD comes in 100mg caps
4-AD comes in 300mg caps
Superdrol comes in 10mg caps

W1- 4AD - 900mg, SD - 10mg
W2- 4AD - 900 mg, SD - 20mg
W3- 4AD - 1200 mg, SD - 20mg
W4- 4AD - 1200 mg, SD - 20mg, 1AD - 600mg
W5- 4AD - 1200 mg, 1AD - 600mg
W6- 4AD - 1200 mg, 1AD - 700mg
W7- 4AD - 1500 mg, 1AD - 700mg
W8- 4AD - 1500 mg, 1AD - 800mg
W9- 4AD - 1200 mg, SD - 20mg, 1AD - 800mg
W10- 4AD - 1200 mg, SD - 30mg
W11- 4AD - 900mg, SD - 30mg
W12- 4AD - 900mg, SD - 30mg

I REALLY like the setup of how everything blends into one another, the only thing I'm a little shaky on, are the doseages.. Particularly, do you think I should up the dose of the 4AD sooner, and take it up to 1800 mgs so I don't encounter any depression from lack of Test? Does the 1AD doseage sound good? I like the Superdrol doseages where it is at. Let me also state that I will be taking DHB with eatch dose of the PH's. It's from ASR, and eatch cap is 300mg of DHB. (DHB is the thing in Grapefruit juice. Basically, DHB attaches to the enzymes that are responsible for metabolizing oral medications in the first pass metabolism, so you get more out of your orals, because the enzymes that destroy them in the first pass are already occupied by the DHB.)

Crazy you say? Well, let me give you some more info. I have already scheduled a baseline blood draw that I will have taken a day or two before this starts. I got it through Health Tests Direct, and I ordered the Lipid Panel, Liver Panel, and Testosterone (Total) tests, so I'll be getting total T, HDL, LDL, total Cholesterol, ALT and AST numbers. I plan on getting another blood draw either in the middle of the cycle, OR at the end of the first SD mini-cycle *and* before the 2nd one, and DEFINATELY one after the cycle ends, and then *again* after PCT is over. I also keep VERY DETAILED records of everything. My weight is taken every single morning with no clothes on first thing after I wake up, before I've eaten anything and after I've gone to the bathroom, with the *same* scale. I measure my own bodyfat with my own calipers (3-site skinfold, which I've been doing every 3 days or so for the last 6 months), tape measurements of bodyparts, and digital pictures.

Diet will be roughly 1,000 cals over maintenance. I currently weigh 176 lbs. at 9.7% bodyfat. The breakdown is 400g Protein, 300g Carbs, 75-85g Fat. My diet has been these numbers for the past 2 weeks, and although I have not seen the scale go up or my skinfold measurements go up, I have noticed the effect in the mirror, it appears that I am "smoothing" out a bit. Previously, the diet was 400 cals less (350g Protein, 250g Carbs, 75g Fat), and that diet had kept my weight the same, but I was seeing a *very* slight decrease in skinfold measurements (about a 3mm total loss over 6 weeks). Before that, I was cutting. I am EXTREMELY anal with my food intake. I weigh EVERYTHING. I weigh my protein scoops for pete's sake. (hey, the scooper lies to you :p the bottle says 30 grams weight, sometimes those scoops are only 26 grams of weight. It adds up over the day!) My diet is very clean food that I prepare in advance, lean protein sources, and low GI carbs. Egg whites, lean ground beef, lowfat cottage cheese, chicken/turkey breast, lean cuts of beef, tuna, CarbCountdown fatfree Milk, oatmeal, brown rice, red kidney beans, sweet potatoes, apples, plums, pears, bananas, EVOO, Udo's Choice Oil, and of course, Whey Protein. (Like I said, I weigh/measure everything. My digital scale is my friend!) This breaks down into 4 whole food meals, 2 half food/half shake meals, and 2 shake meals. 7 are taken/eaten during the day, and I wake up in the middle of the night and slam down a protein shake. Having said all that, I might decide to up the cals by another 300 or so after I see how the weight is changing, and also I'm sure that after gaining 10 or so pounds I'll need to increase food intake anyways to continue gaining.

SUPPLEMENTS: Since this is a *long* cycle, I'm going to be taking many things that are anti-oxidants, things for liver support, cholesterol support, things for blood pressure, kidneys. Here's the main list of supps:

Alcar, Taurine, Green tea extract, CLA, Idebenone, Policosanal, Rhodilia, Celery seed extract, NAC, Red Yeast Rice, CoQ10, Milk Thistle, C12 extract (twinlab blood pressure control), Allicin (garlic), Saw Palmetto, Hawthorn Berry, Fish Oil, Multi-vit, Vit-C, Dandelion root

In addition:
Cissus Quadrangularis, Celedrin, Glucosamine and Chondroitin, DHB (the stuff from grapefruit juice), CEE, Whey Protein I also thought about included ReboundXT at a low dose (1 pill) ed, or eod in the middle of the 12 weeks when the 4ad dose is high to curb estrogen sides if any. Thoughts on this?

I'll ALSO be taking Designer Supp's: ActivaTe. I think using this while on cycle will help out even more.

I think that's everything.. may have missed something. AS FOR PCT, I already have Nolva and ReboundXT ON HAND, as well as Lean Extreme, and basically every single supp listed above will continue INTO pct as well, and it looks like I'll be getting some Fenugreek as well.

Training: Currently I am in the hands of a *very* capable trainer. Iron Addict is training me, and I have made more gains with him in the past 8 weeks than I had made on my own the previous *16* weeks! My MAIN focus right now is on strength gain, but of course I'd also like to see the size come along with it! This week I am re-testing my 1 rep max Bench, Squat, and Deadlift, and *after* I test them is when I am going to start this cycle, and IA will be re-writting my routine based on the info of what I will be doing, and to add in a bit more hypertrophy. Basically, it is (currently, and probably the same coming next as well) 3 days a week of lifting in what he likes to call a hybrid "powerbuilding" program. It's a very modified Westside Barbell type of routine. 2 days a week of moderate intensity cardio, and 2 days of pulling a weighted sled around outside.

Goals: Like I just stated, my *main* focus is on strength gain, but I'd also *really* like to see a damn good size increase as well.

So, it's pretty late, and I *think* I covered just about everything. Please give me your input on all of this. Would really like to hear what Lean One and Dr. D think on this. Allright, thanks for reading everyone! :)

(edit - test)
 
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TryinToGetBIG

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Looks like you will be a biiiggg boy at the end of this fiasco.
 
milwood

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That is twice as long as a PH/PS cycle should be. You'll gain and KEEP much more by doing 2 cycles, separated by PCT and time off. Your lipids, etc. are gonna suffer, and your gains will slow down considerably over that time. That's why you won't find people doing 12 weeks on PH/PS's. Just trying to help, glad you asked.
 
Pioneer

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what is your PCT?

and like milwood said, splitting it into two would be much better.
 

RedSwan78

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My PCT is already stated in the original post.

Just got back from testing my 1 rep max bench, in 8 weeks, I added 40 pounds to my bench! Thanks Iron Addict! :D I test my 1 rep max Squat and Deadlift on Friday, and then AFTER I get home from the gym, I'll be starting my PH cycle. (doing it *after* because I need the lifts to be done "clean" so it's a fair representation of what I can do without any assistance).
 

AcuDoc

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Like others have already stated, I think your lipids are going to get hammered. With 12 weeks on, you might want to throw some HCG in there.

IMO, this cycle sucks. It's too long, will be hard on the heart, kidneys and cholesterol. With all the ancillaries you'll have to take to keep it from becoming a complete train wreck, you'd be better off saving the money and skipping the cycle.

With a good trainer why even bother with them. You've gained 40lbs on your bench without them. Just stay natural as long as gains keep coming.
 

RedSwan78

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Well, another thing to think about, is that I WILL have the option of STOPPING the cycle at the end of the 8th week (before the SD starts up again) based on the bloodwork results. I think I'll probably end up getting bloodwork both at the end of the 4th week, and near the end of the 8th week (so that I get results before I add the SD back in). If it looks good, I can continue, if it looks horrible, I'll stop it there... how does that sound? I *do* want to be responsible and not hurt myself here and all..
 
wojo

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im doing somthing similar..gonna run it at 8 weeks..supradrol for 4 max lmg,4-ad and 1-ad for 8
 
milwood

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im doing somthing similar..gonna run it at 8 weeks..supradrol for 4 max lmg,4-ad and 1-ad for 8
try this:
1. 4AD, 1AD
2. 4AD, 1AD, SD
3. 4AD, 1AD, SD
4. 4AD, 1AD, SD
5. 4AD, 1AD, MAX
6. 4AD, 1AD, MAX
7. 4AD, 1AD, MAX
8. MAX

you'll maximize SD effects with 3 weeks, frontloading the 4AD and 1AD, and dropping those at the end will let you harden up and dry out nicely at the end of your cycle. You could run the 1AD through week 8 if you want.

This is just a suggestion based on my experience, having run all of these compounds with nice gains.
 
wojo

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see i hear a lot of talk about frontloading 4-ad..never had a prob..it works real quick with me i wanna run the 4-ad till the end because my libido will be shot with both 1-ad and lmg the sd is also designed in this stack to kick start it..then at the 4 week mark the lmg should be kicking in nicely..although i am debating keeping the sd at 3..i might also limit 1-ad to 6 weeks
 
DmitryWI

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Well, another thing to think about, is that I WILL have the option of STOPPING the cycle at the end of the 8th week (before the SD starts up again) based on the bloodwork results. I think I'll probably end up getting bloodwork both at the end of the 4th week, and near the end of the 8th week (so that I get results before I add the SD back in). If it looks good, I can continue, if it looks horrible, I'll stop it there... how does that sound? I *do* want to be responsible and not hurt myself here and all..
Your blood work is not going to look good . Trust me. I had blood work after 3 weeks of sd. Also look at Deoudes thread 3 on 2 off 3 on. May be you'll learn something.
 

Gills224

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For 1/5th of the money that is gonna cost you get some test that will actually give you results and not destroy your liver in the process.
 

same_old

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For 1/5th of the money that is gonna cost you get some test that will actually give you results and not destroy your liver in the process.
yup. oral 4-ad isnt quite like test, even at 1500mg/day. get some test e and jumpstart 2-3 weeks with SD if you want to do a long cycle - should give great gains. optionally, finish with SD or max lmg weeks 10-12.
 
milwood

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yup. oral 4-ad isnt quite like test, even at 1500mg/day. get some test e and jumpstart 2-3 weeks with SD if you want to do a long cycle - should give great gains. optionally, finish with SD or max lmg weeks 10-12.
now that sounds like a pretty good plan. Still might be a little taxing, but spreading the SD out very much, or kicking the cycle with SD, ending with MAX would help. I guess the 4AD thing would give you the test, but you'd have to eat about 3g or smear about 1g on t/d daily to match what Test E could do, right? Your cycle could be:
1-12 Test E
1-3 SD
10-12 MAX

that might be a pretty nice run.
 
DmitryWI

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Can I buy test at GNC?
Oh, wait, I can't!?!?
You, Gills and same old, realize, it's legal issue for some people, but you talk about it like you can buy test at Wall-Mart.
 
natedogg

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Can I buy test at GNC?
Oh, wait, I can't!?!?
You, Gills and same old, realize, it's legal issue for some people, but you talk about it like you can buy test at Wall-Mart.
You practically can if you know the right people. ;)
 
kwyckemynd00

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That is twice as long as a PH/PS cycle should be. You'll gain and KEEP much more by doing 2 cycles, separated by PCT and time off. Your lipids, etc. are gonna suffer, and your gains will slow down considerably over that time. That's why you won't find people doing 12 weeks on PH/PS's. Just trying to help, glad you asked.
That doesn't make any sense. PH's are convert to AAS and the long v. short cycle debate is ongoing and neither side has proven their case. If an AAS cycle can be run for 12 weeks, then a PH cycle can as well...(not to mention, SD is a full fledged steroid).

12 weeks is a long cycle, however, and could be very suppressive. So, I would consider running a very well planned PCT.

The one thing I wanted to point out was that htere seems like no reason to taper the dosages "down" toward the end of the cycle of the 4AD. I can see tapering up, but not down. There is no real benifit from what I"ve read to tapering down.

In summary, the cycle looks good, have a good PCT and don't taper down the 4AD. Eat good, train hard, and you'll grow.
 
kwyckemynd00

kwyckemynd00

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Your blood work is not going to look good . Trust me. I had blood work after 3 weeks of sd. Also look at Deoudes thread 3 on 2 off 3 on. May be you'll learn something.
But, just b/c SD trashed lipids, doesn't mean that 4AD and 1AD are going to. They may not even keep the lipid level supressed (probably won't if I had to bet) to where SD brought them down to.

This is akin to saying that taking Test orally for 12 weeks after 4 weeks dbol is a bad idea b/c hte cycle is too long...think about it guys.

EDIT: RedSwan, you're working with IA. Ask him about the cycle, man...it looks like you've thought it out very thoroughly and I'm sure he'll give you the thumbs up on it (unless you're doing this behind his back and don't want him to know ;))
 

AcuDoc

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...
12 weeks is a long cycle, however, and could be very suppressive. So, I would consider running a very well planned PCT.
I would think HCG would be a must during the cycle but there would go the whole legal aspect of the cycle. Then you're back at a test cyp/e and sd cycle.

I don't see how this cycle could be a good thing. Why wouldn't 2 cycles split up be better-both for overall health and HPTA recovery. People run 12-16 weekers of test because you feel great on it. I don't think you can say the same of these orals.
 
kwyckemynd00

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For HPTA health, yes, it is probably a better. For gains, not necessarily at all. I was mostly making the point that it made so sense ot say that "this cycle is too short of a PH cycle".

4AD is the PH to test. It's a great base for that cycle. It's also illegal now, so the legality of the cycle is already out the window. But,then again, he'd have to start pinning, too. If he had access, HCG is always a good option.

12 weeks should be fine with no HCG. And then again, it all comes down to the argument of short v long cycles again and which is better.
 
DmitryWI

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But, just b/c SD trashed lipids, doesn't mean that 4AD and 1AD are going to. They may not even keep the lipid level supressed (probably won't if I had to bet) to where SD brought them down to.
I have no problem with first 4 weeks of SD (also I woudn't go over 3 weeks), but another 4 weeks of SD in the end would be too much. And I agree, I don't think 1-ad/4-ad will make lipids worse and he can restore then while running 1-ad/4-ad, but 4 weeks in between not long enough break.
Also I woudn't run 12 weeks without HCG.
Here's what I think to do in a few months.
Week1 1-t/4-ad/SD
Week2 1-t/4-ad/SD
Week3 1-t/4-ad
Week4 1-t/4-ad
Week5 1-t/4-ad
Week6 1-t/4-ad.............(bloodwork)
week7 1-t/4-ad/SD
Week8 1-t/4-ad/SD
 
milwood

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Can I buy test at GNC?
Oh, wait, I can't!?!?
You, Gills and same old, realize, it's legal issue for some people, but you talk about it like you can buy test at Wall-Mart.
I hear you, but you can't buy 4AD or 1AD legally either!

I assume that the cycle idea was using what he already has. The Test E thing was just reacting to someone's idea on what (I think) WOULD be a viable 12 weeker. It would be using Test as a base, not 12 weeks of oral PH's (8 of which would be with SD as well). That's a lot of SD by anyone's standards, ans a lot of oral PH/PS's altogether. Makes much more sense with Test for one thing, and with 3 weeks of SD at a time IMO, that's all. ;)
 
milwood

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...and your 8 weeker makes much more sense than 12 weeks too, IMO.
 
kwyckemynd00

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Looks good dmitry...I actually didnt see the last 4 weeks of SD, but I dont find it too troublesome, personally. I wouldn't recommend him doing that often though.

Liver values aren't a big concern, so just some RYR and some cardio between wks 4-8 adn he should be okay.

Hell, most peoplew ere running SD 6 weeks straight when it first came out :D haahahaha

That and, well, over time I keep meeting people who are getting good bloodwork and are still in good health that have taken or are taking what you and i would consider ungoldy amoutns of AAS (including orals like ADrol up to 200mg/day for long periods of time). Now, I definintely dont' recommend that to anyone and very much feel that it is unsafe...however, lets just say my fear of orals has greatily diminshed.

Not only that, but I read a study a long while back about an unhealty 60lb chinese girl who was being treated with Dbol at 90mg/day for 6 years along with her current declining health condition. Well, despite being 60lbs on 90mg/day of dbol in a state of indefinite decline of her health, she lived 6 years...LOL.
 
DmitryWI

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Not only that, but I read a study a long while back about an unhealty 60lb chinese girl who was being treated with Dbol at 90mg/day for 6 years along with her current declining health condition. Well, despite being 60lbs on 90mg/day of dbol in a state of indefinite decline of her health, she lived 6 years...LOL.
:eek: It's **** load of d-bol for such a little girl. Wow!

Oh, lets not forget, SD stays in your system for 5-6 days after your last dose, so when Redswan wants to run 4weeks it's more like 5 weeks 3 weeks break and then another almost 5 weeks, not good idea IMO.
 
kwyckemynd00

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people are doing 3 on 3 off 3on again and in 21 days HDL gets down to 10's or lower (it's not getting any lower than that). So, that's technically 4 on 2 off 4 on....if you look at it that way.

Both are gonna trash the choesterol levels. Best get it over with in one big nasty cycelt han spread them out, IMHO.
 
DmitryWI

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But as soon as you finish one big nasty cycle you want to start another big and even nastier cycle. LOL
 

RedSwan78

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Hey there everybody,

To address a couple of points that have come up and perhaps give a bit more of an explanation to some things:

Yes, this is planned to use what I already have. I got some PH's to use "later in the year" before the ban, and this represents what I have. So yes, while 1AD and 4AD are illegal now, I bought them back when they *where* legal so that's how I *have* them now. Sure it *is* "bending the law", but it's a "bending" that I am currently comfortable with. ;) :)

Why can't I (why don't I want to) break this up into two smaller cycles with pct inbetween? Let's just say that it's a "timing" issue in regards to the possibility of a drug test/Career. Not saying anything further, I'd like to keep that part of my life private please. Thank you for understanding.

In regards to the supplements that will be used along with it, I run almost all of that stuff now as it is. (the Celery, RYR, CoQ10, Milk Thistle, C12, Allicin, Saw Palmetto, Hawthorn Berry, Fish oil, and DHB are the things that I DO NOT already run and had to "add" into all of the other things that I *am* already running. Although, I stopped taking RXT and ActivaTe about 1.5 weeks ago to let things kind of "normalize" a bit before starting this)

Kwyckemynd00, about the tapering down of the 4AD, that's one of the reasons why I put this thread up. I wasn't too sure what to do about it, and I've seen some people did do it, some didn't. I figured with this long being on, it might help coming off be easier? Also, I didn't want massive estrogen problems, and it seemed that lowering the dose of the 4AD at the end would help with lowering the estrogen that I'd have to deal with going into PCT (that being having the highest dose of 4AD suddenly just drop off to none at all, having alot of 4AD converting over to test and aromatizing to estrogen, and then coming off everything, having no test, and *lots* of estrogen around). It's also why I'm considering adding in a low dose of ReboundXT around the middle/end of the cycle....?

Also, I *have* talked to IA about everything. He's all thumbs up for the 12 weeker (he just wishes that I had transdermal 4AD, he even gave me an experiment to try to see if I could get the 4AD to sink in oil in the oven, it was a no-go [modified cornstarch is used as a filler :( ] so can't make it into a trans. He's still fine with it though). The thing is, from a legal standpoint, he can't/won't comment on my doseages or anything. That's another reason why I posted this up here for some input from everybody else. :) That's also why I'm not starting this untill AFTER I get home from the gym on Friday, after I retest my 1rep max Squat and Deadlift in a hormone-free clean state, so that he can get the info of where we need to go with my training next.

PCT, as mentioned, will consist of Nolva, ReboundXT, Lean Extreme (for cortisol curbing), and Fenugreek. Thought about possibly adding in some PS (phosphatidyl serine), and I need to read up on DHEA to see if that should be added as well. (and of course, like I said, all of the other supps listed in the original post WILL continue into PCT as well)

Well, have to go get directions to the place where I"m getting my blood drawn for my baseline tomorrow and then head off to sleep!
 
kwyckemynd00

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I can't address the estrogen rebound concern you have. It *seems* logical, but I would think that a good AI would take care of your concerns. You do have RXT and Nolva, right? So, you've got the AI and the SERM :)

I "personally" wouldn't worry about that portion of the recovery considering you have a great SERM and a great AI*** on hand that also work wonders for getting natty test up. I'd be more concerned with PCT and recovering from a cycle that could give a nice smash to your HPTA. But, it appears your PCT was well thought out....

Looks good to me...put it this way.

If it looked "bad" you would have had 30000 ppl on here telling you how bad it was. When it's good, it's just kinda looked at and then "on to the next thread", so that's why you're not getting more responses.

Bummer the 4AD isn't transdermal. What brand is it?
 
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same_old

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thinking a little more critically about all this....

i've run oral 4-ad VERY high - it doesnt work like test, not even test base (ie TNE) which is what it converts to...TNE is nowhere near as wet/bloaty, and all forms of short-estered test "seem" more anabolic than 4-ad (i'm not counting 4-ad-cyp which i heard great things about)

i agree that 12 weeks without HCG will be a little bit hard on the boys, but it isnt a huge deal, guys do it all the time.

between the 1-ad and SD, you're gonna have a ton of anabolism the whole way through, so i expect you'll grow a ton. i would personally only run the SD weeks 1-3 and 8-10 w/ 1-ad weeks 3-8 and cut the cycle down 2 weeks, if you're set on using whatcha got. this keeps you from wasting SD (which i reckon that 4th week will be), helps the lipids out a good bit, and prevents your nuts from being mistaken for butterscotch jellybeans (very dangerous if you live with a midget with a sweet tooth)
 

RedSwan78

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Looks good to me...put it this way.

If it looked "bad" you would have had 30000 ppl on here telling you how bad it was. When it's good, it's just kinda looked at and then "on to the next thread", so that's why you're not getting more responses.

Bummer the 4AD isn't transdermal. What for is it?
Kwyckemynd00,

Yes I already have the Nolva and RebountXT (and LXT for that matter) on hand and ready to go.

Thinking about it, you are right with what you said about if it looked horrible there'd be alot more posts slamming it.

The 4AD is Ergopharm's oral version. So what do you think about the dosing of the 4AD then? Should I keep it as is up till it hits 1500, and then instead of bringing it back down just let it run at 1500 till it's done, or?

Same_old, how high did you run the oral 4AD? Above 1500mgs a day? 1800mgs? (also, how long did you keep it high?)
 
kwyckemynd00

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Lets figure it out :)

1500mg/day * 5% oral bioavailability * 25% conversion = 18.75mg test/ day, this adds up to about 130mg test / wk which would be closer to about 164mg/wk of Test C or E/wk (b/c cyp and enan esters are approx 1/5 the weight of the total hormone--off the top of my head??).

Now, consider the 4AD has some activity without conversion, you'll probably see decent results from that....

How much 4AD do you have, bro???
 

RedSwan78

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How much 4AD do you have, bro???

Uhhhhhhmmmm........... enough. :D :run:

Also, I'll be taking DHB with/before I take the PH's, so in theory it should increase the bioavailability of them by some amount.
 
kwyckemynd00

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If you've got "enough" maybe take a few grams a day :) Hehehe.
 

same_old

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Lets figure it out :)

1500mg/day * 5% oral bioavailability * 25% conversion = 18.75mg test/ day, this adds up to about 130mg test / wk which would be closer to about 164mg/wk of Test C or E/wk (b/c cyp and enan esters are approx 1/5 the weight of the total hormone--off the top of my head??).

Now, consider the 4AD has some activity without conversion, you'll probably see decent results from that....

How much 4AD do you have, bro???
use all the conversion you want....high dose oral 4-ad just doesnt do that much. enanthate ester is 31% of the weight, btw.

i wouldnt even bother with 164mg/week of test, even if it was "the real deal"

and by the way, 4-ad converts @ 16% in the bloodstream, not 25%...so using your math, it's 84mg/week.

not to say i dont like oral 4-ad...but i dont use it to replace test.
 

RedSwan78

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use all the conversion you want....high dose oral 4-ad just doesnt do that much. enanthate ester is 31% of the weight, btw.

i wouldnt even bother with 164mg/week of test, even if it was "the real deal"

and by the way, 4-ad converts @ 16% in the bloodstream, not 25%...so using your math, it's 84mg/week.

not to say i dont like oral 4-ad...but i dont use it to replace test.
So do you think that I should bump the planned 4AD up even higher than? How high did you go with it same_old?

If I'm going to run the 4AD higher than 1500mgs a day, I really think that I should definately do ReboundXT at 1 cap a day starting at about halfway through the cycle? Anybody have any thoughts on this?
 
milwood

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So do you think that I should bump the planned 4AD up even higher than? How high did you go with it same_old?

If I'm going to run the 4AD higher than 1500mgs a day, I really think that I should definately do ReboundXT at 1 cap a day starting at about halfway through the cycle? Anybody have any thoughts on this?
I'd say add the RXT in cycle. 1500mg is a lot of 4AD pills, but the poor oral bioavailability takes most of it out of the equasion, unfortunately. You'll still get some test from that, as well as the potential sides. I'd get the letro ready and go 1.25mg EOD or every third day if it (bloat) gets uncomfortable. If you're lucky, the RXT will take care of it, but be ready!
 
DR.D

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Wow, I gotta say, your a good candidate for shorter cycles. When you regulate lifestyle as tight as you can, shorter cycles can work and make sense when you think about long term health risks. But I almost always run long ones (10-14wks) unless I'm just trying something new all by itself for 3 or 4 wks. Plus, I do 8wk PCT's after, so it is very suppressive usually. All these guys are right though. My game is more advanced because I've been at this awhile. Plus, the older you get, the more work it takes to get it done. I must agree with Kwyckemynd00 about orals though. I've done a lot of them, and I have to conclude that the toxicity is often greatly over-rated. Otherwise, I would have died years ago. I have broken all the rules at some point and really tested my health for over a decade. I have learned my limits and don't advise you try it that way, but I'm still alive to let you know it can be done. This is what I might suggest if your still set on a long one..

W1: 4AD 900mg, SD 10mg
W2: 4AD 900mg, SD 20mg
W3: 4AD 1200mg, SD 20mg
W4: 4AD 1200mg, SD 30mg
W5: 4AD 1500mg, 1AD 600mg
W6: 4AD 1500mg, 1AD 700mg
W7: 4AD 1500mg, 1AD 800mg
W8: 4AD 1200mg, SD 10mg, 1AD 800mg
W9: 4AD 900mg, SD 20mg, 1AD 800mg
W10: SD 30mg, 1AD 600
W11: SD 10mg, Start PCT
W12-16: PCT continued...

If estro gets problematic, add letro or RXT or you might try dropping the Saw Palmeto first. I'd also add 30ml Flax oil/day in two doses.
 
kwyckemynd00

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use all the conversion you want....high dose oral 4-ad just doesnt do that much. enanthate ester is 31% of the weight, btw.
Then what is your point? Just don't up the dose b/c it's not going to work anyway? I'm not seeing the point here. And damn, 31% v 20% which will give a different of 45mg Test per week, or ~6.5mg/day. You're being very nitpicky. It was a value that was realy insignificant in that situation...
i wouldnt even bother with 164mg/week of test, even if it was "the real deal"
That's why I was encouraging him to up the dosage. He doesn't need to meet the equivalent of 500mg cyp, b/c as you know 4AD has activity of it's own, and of course he should be expecting Test-like results.

and by the way, 4-ad converts @ 16% in the bloodstream, not 25%...so using your math, it's 84mg/week.
According to whom? You're going to find atleast 3 different figures on the conversion rate. I believe it was Strateg0s' word I took for the 25% number after hearing everything from 13-30%. Look around, bud. You'll see a ton of different numbers for lots of different things.
not to say i dont like oral 4-ad...but i dont use it to replace test.
Nobody is attempting to replace Test with 4AD...However, he's taking 4AD, which has a target hormone of Test. So of course you want to pay attention to what amount of Test you're getting in the conversion! There is absolutely no point in taking some tiny amount that may give you a pimple and make you pop a few extra boners throughout the day.

Anyway, RedSwan78, DR.D has spoken. And I see he is tapering the dosage as well, so, I guess your estrogen concerns were justified (either that or the SD is just replacing it???)....best of luck on the cycle.
 

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If estro gets problematic, add letro or RXT or you might try dropping the Saw Palmeto first. I'd also add 30ml Flax oil/day in two doses.
That's why I really wanted your input on this, had no idea about dropping the Saw Palmetto if estrogen got problematic. Any short explanations of why that is Dr. D?

About the Flax Oil, I currently take 2 Tablespoon of EVOO (30g fat) and 1 Tablespoon of Udo's Choice Oil (15g fat) everyday. I'll also be adding in 10 grams of Fish Oil (CNW's, 10 caps per day) once it gets here. Would you still recomend adding in Flax Oil? (oh yeah, and if it makes any difference, 9grams of CLA per day also)

Also, as for PCT, I'd like to get your input on that. If I where to go ahead and go with the first version that I posted (based on your input I might tweak it slightly, maybe even drop it down a week or two), but let's say if it was based on the first version that I posted, how would you construct PCT? My thoughts on it where an 8 week pct with Nolva that starts high and tapers down, ReboundXT that starts low and tapers up (and then eventually back down again after week 8), LXT, Fenugreek, and all the other supps that I will be taking while "on" (Idebenone, Policosanol, Celeryseed, etc, etc, etc). It's late, and I need to get to sleep, but I remember reading that you posted that Fenugreek only works for 3-4 weeks max? What is the "off" time that you need to take before you can start taking Fenugreek again? So basically, assuming that all the other supps will be run at their proper dosages (the Idebenone, etc) how would you construct PCT and what dosages/weeks would you run the Nolva, RXT, Fenugreek? (possibly even Phophatidyl Serine, and DHEA, but I need to do some research on what DHEA can do/does for/during PCT and if I should be looking at including it)

As for the whole 4AD and Test thing, sure it would be better if I COULD take test, but I can't. I have 4AD, so that's what I'm using, and whatever benefit it provides, it's what I've got/am going to get. :)

Thanks for the well wishes Kwyck, I'll be keeping a good log here on AM as it progresses! :)
 

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Then what is your point? Just don't up the dose b/c it's not going to work anyway? I'm not seeing the point here. And damn, 31% v 20% which will give a different of 45mg Test per week, or ~6.5mg/day. You're being very nitpicky. It was a value that was realy insignificant in that situation...
bro, chill out. i threw the enanthate weight in there just to correct your guess from memory. it was not part of my argument.
That's why I was encouraging him to up the dosage. He doesn't need to meet the equivalent of 500mg cyp, b/c as you know 4AD has activity of it's own, and of course he should be expecting Test-like results.
i've said before that "4-ad has activity of its own" but i (and i think many others) are referring to its libido-stimulating properties, not its anabolism. as for test-like results....whatever the science tells you, the brotelligence does not back it up - oral 4-ad just doesnt do what test does (probably due to poor GI uptake)
According to whom? You're going to find atleast 3 different figures on the conversion rate. I believe it was Strateg0s' word I took for the 25% number after hearing everything from 13-30%. Look around, bud. You'll see a ton of different numbers for lots of different things.
relax!! i just used your oral conversion rate (5%) to do my math - i dont pretend to know what the exact rate is, and its not a stable value besides. and test DOES convert @ 16% in blood, that's been verified in lab tests.
Nobody is attempting to replace Test with 4AD...
you're just contradicting yourself there...before, you said he should expect "test-like results"

redswan - keep in mind that high-dose 4-ad and SD caused gyno symptoms for some. letro is a must, IMO.

i'm pretty curious how this cycle goes...i am REALLY curious how bloodwork will look, and how many lbs you keep.
 
DR.D

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... I see he is tapering the dosage as well, so, I guess your estrogen concerns were justified (either that or the SD is just replacing it???)....best of luck on the cycle.
I would not get estrogenic sides from this combo, but some could, and a lot seem to actually. And I'm not tappering the 4AD, just phasing things in and out (replacing like you said) there is only a 2wk tapper at the very end blending into PCT.
 

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now that sounds like a pretty good plan. Still might be a little taxing, but spreading the SD out very much, or kicking the cycle with SD, ending with MAX would help. I guess the 4AD thing would give you the test, but you'd have to eat about 3g or smear about 1g on t/d daily to match what Test E could do, right? Your cycle could be:
1-12 Test E
1-3 SD
10-12 MAX

that might be a pretty nice run.
Wouldn't you stop test E at week 10 for a 12 weeker? And I heard that MAX starts kicking in at week 2, so would 9-12 be better?
 

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yea but hes trying to go "legal" even though 4 ad isnt legal anyway and neither is 1 ad
 

RedSwan78

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bigman420, please don't make assumptions as to my intentions. It kind of sounds like you where trying to be "not nice" with your post, so I'll just leave it at that.

*bump* for Dr.D and the questions I asked above pertaining to the Flax oil and PCT questions.

Other than that, I started by taking 4AD and SD when I got home from the gym yesterday, and I already got my bloodwork back from having it drawn on Thursday, and it looks good to me. :)

AST - 35
ALT -47
Cholesterol: 131
HDL - 45
LDL - 75
LDL/HDL ratio: 1.68
Testosterone, total: 448

Give me a day or 3 and I'll write everything up for the log and make a new post with it. :)

OH yeah, forgot to mention that I got me some Letro on the way. Probably take it 1.25ml every 3 days starting in a week or 2 and see how that goes. Might bump up the 4AD higher.
 

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