Keto and PHs

[Juicedeez utz]

Yo, I was thinking about going full keto on my cut at the start of next year, has anyone run a ph cycle while on keto? Would it affect the outcome much apart from the glycogen storage ect

 

[saywutrly]

I did carb cycling, which is basically keto with refeeds, for almost three months using just peptides and the fat just kept melting off. I didn't even cut calories. I cut all the carbs during the week and replaced them with protein, good fats, and low carb veggies.

Every weekend refeed, my muscles would blow up, but I was always leaner every time. Calories in, calories out my ass. I would recommend this if you're looking for a killer recomp.

Jerry Ward isn't always my favorite, but he has a good video that uses information from 90s body builders to well explain a proper carb cycling setup.

 

[Juicedeez utz]

I was looking for a straight cut, I've done carb cycling in the past and didn't get great results, I put on weight so easy with carbs, I'm really sensitive, I sit at 150 carbs a day and still that's probably a bit too much!
Just wanted to do a straight cut but retain strength and muscle mass but if I should do my cycle at a different time I will just though that havoc being the notorious cutting ph would have been a nice addiction as I have a bottle kicking about

 

[saywutrly]

The PHs will help a lot if it's a straight cut you want. When you drop calories or all carbs for months at a time, AAS of any kind will force the body to hold onto muscle, as will the ultra high protein used in keto. It's an awesome way to cut. I just flatten out SO much from no carbs that I have to load every so often, but good on you for knowing your body.

So long as its set up properly, this should go well. And Havoc should be epistane which is actually just a designer steroid, technically not even a PH. One of my personal favs. BUT get a test base like dermacrine or some 4 andro at 330mg a day in there or you're going to hate life between no carbs and cutting and running just epistane. I used a mix of epiandro and 4andro for my test base before I began injecting, but to each their own. I find better libido benefits when adding the epiandro.

 

[Juicedeez utz]

Yeah I've heard the protein has a much better value for muscles when in ketosis. My muscles are always hard and when I carb cycled they just weren't so tense all the time haha
Yeah it is the original havoc, I'm in the uk, I've got some 4-androstenedione to run was gonna start at 375 then bump to 500 after a week. I've also got epiandro and a bottle of 1-test I was going to run for the last 4 weeks just to really harden up before PCT

 

[saywutrly]

Lucky you. I'm in the land of the "free" so, you know, I'm not free to have any of that. The 4ad will do you solid and I hear the 1 test is wicked. I just found a brewer with injectable 1 test that I'll be running with epistane to dry out the end of my test and Trest cycle if I can get it here in time.

Good luck with the cycle. What you've posted sounds solid. If you want some more opinions from the vets, post up your cycle plan and there's plenty of brothers who can help. Almost all of us in this generation started out with PH/DS products, so we know them well.

Only thing here is I would keep the 4ad steady. If you want 500, start there. I've been told its best to keep your test base at a steady dose.

 

[Juicedeez utz]

Yeah, I hope they go as well as people say! Now injectable 1-test sounds killer! That would be awesome!
Thanks man I will post it closer to the time I think, got a few kinks and supports to work out as yet! The only reason I'm not on AAS is the fiancé says no to injectables haha don't ask me why haha
I'll take that into consideration thanks a lot for the help

 

[saywutrly]

It's usually because of a lack of education. I had an ex who was against it until I explained the dangers of 17aa gear, liver/kidney/etc, and the benefits for both herself and myself of HCG and a true test base. People think "oohh injection" and then they immediately think of some junkie cooking their heroin down in a spoon and tearing apart a cigarette filter for cotton to filter it. They don't think of "oh, this is how doctors prescribe test to patients and it is actually the safer method."

And yeah, I'm way looking forward to this 1-test injectable. Guy also has injectable trest, but I prefer that oral for PWO dosing. If I can again find this thread once I've received and tried it, I'll report back with some anecdotes.

 

[Br1ck_Sh1thouse]

I did carb cycling, which is basically keto with refeeds, for almost three months using just peptides and the fat just kept melting off. I didn't even cut calories. I cut all the carbs during the week and replaced them with protein, good fats, and low carb veggies.

Every weekend refeed, my muscles would blow up, but I was always leaner every time. Calories in, calories out my ass. I would recommend this if you're looking for a killer recomp.

Jerry Ward isn't always my favorite, but he has a good video that uses information from 90s body builders to well explain a proper carb cycling setup.

If you don't mind my asking what peps melted the fat so well?

 

[saywutrly]

If you don't mind my asking what peps melted the fat so well?

I stack a GHRP (rotate GHRP2, GHRP6, and Ipamorelin) with a GHRH (Mod GRF 1-29.)
These are run 200mcg / 100mcg respectively at a frequency of 3-5 times a day in a 5 day on, 2 day off cycle.

 

[Br1ck_Sh1thouse]

I stack a GHRP (rotate GHRP2, GHRP6, and Ipamorelin) with a GHRH (Mod GRF 1-29.)
These are run 200mcg / 100mcg respectively at a frequency of 3-5 times a day in a 5 day on, 2 day off cycle.

How long of a run, 4 weeks? When you say rotate do you mean ghrp2 3-5 times a day then the ghrp6 the next day? Or do you cycle through each in one day?

 

[yates84]

It's usually because of a lack of education. I had an ex who was against it until I explained the dangers of 17aa gear, liver/kidney/etc, and the benefits for both herself and myself of HCG and a true test base. People think "oohh injection" and then they immediately think of some junkie cooking their heroin down in a spoon and tearing apart a cigarette filter for cotton to filter it. They don't think of "oh, this is how doctors prescribe test to patients and it is actually the safer method."

And yeah, I'm way looking forward to this 1-test injectable. Guy also has injectable trest, but I prefer that oral for PWO dosing. If I can again find this thread once I've received and tried it, I'll report back with some anecdotes.

Been looking at some 1-test cyp oil myself, was thinking about running it next cycle

 

[saywutrly]

How long of a run, 4 weeks? When you say rotate do you mean ghrp2 3-5 times a day then the ghrp6 the next day? Or do you cycle through each in one day?

Oh, no, these are like running real GH. Six months minimum. I've been on for about four months thus far.

I rotate the compounds after I finish off 10mg of that compound. This is typically 1 or 2 vials depending on where you get it from. This helps from my experience. I can notice that by the time it is time to switch out the GHRP6 it doesn't make me as ravenously hungry as it does when I first start it up again.

 

[saywutrly]

Been looking at some 1-test cyp oil myself, was thinking about running it next cycle

Do you think that one could run IM trest for a base with IM 1-T? Trest makes me feel so much more amazing than test. Not trying to threadjack. I know you can give a concise reply that won't throw us off.

 

[yates84]

Do you think that one could run IM trest for a base with IM 1-T? Trest makes me feel so much more amazing than test. Not trying to threadjack. I know you can give a concise reply that won't throw us off.

I would still throw in a low dose of test, 150mg a week or so. Not sure how high you've ran trest before but as the doses get higher the test base effect definitely goes away. I wouldnt chance it especially when test is so cheap to add and 150mg shouldn't change the amount of estrogen you are dealing with anyway.

 

[yates84]

Yo, I was thinking about going full keto on my cut at the start of next year, has anyone run a ph cycle while on keto? Would it affect the outcome much apart from the glycogen storage ect

My current avi was at the end of a PH cycle that I did in ketosis, carbs were 50g a day and I had one refeed day where I ate around 300g. I lost about 25 pounds in 8 weeks and got down to 6 or 7% bf all while maintaining my strength. Worked excellent for me.

 

[Juicedeez utz]

My current avi was at the end of a PH cycle that I did in ketosis, carbs were 50g a day and I had one refeed day where I ate around 300g. I lost about 25 pounds in 8 weeks and got down to 6 or 7% bf all while maintaining my strength. Worked excellent for me.

That's great! Mad props!! I'm going to be on 40g carbs and I'll be in keto for 16 weeks, trying to get down to 8% from 15\16% I'll do a couple of refeeds probably to help a bit but this is just what I wanted to hear! I'm down to 100 carbs a day at the minute slowly progressing down and am gonna start end of next month! Thanks man

 

[yates84]

That's great! Mad props!! I'm going to be on 40g carbs and I'll be in keto for 16 weeks, trying to get down to 8% from 15\16% I'll do a couple of refeeds probably to help a bit but this is just what I wanted to hear! I'm down to 100 carbs a day at the minute slowly progressing down and am gonna start end of next month! Thanks man

Just run a test base, something like epiandro to keep your CNS stimulated. Lethargy from the Ph is bad enough and then low carb diets can make that a lot worse. Kinda hard to burn calories when you don't feel like getting out of the bed.

 

[Juicedeez utz]

Oh and I've bought your cycle support and it's great, if you want anyone to log or review any upcoming or current products, I'd be more than willing!

 

[yates84]

Oh and I've bought your cycle support and it's great, if you want anyone to log or review any upcoming or current products, I'd be more than willing!

Awesome! What's your cycle plan right now?

 

[Juicedeez utz]

I've got 500mg ED of 4-androstenedione and 500mg ED of sup3r epi

 

[Juicedeez utz]

1-5: havoc 30mg 1-4 40 4-5
1-5: 4AD 500 ED
4-9: epi 500mg ED
5-9: oral 1-test (not 1AD) 100mg ED

 

[yates84]

I've got 500mg ED of 4-androstenedione and 500mg ED of sup3r epi

Ok cool, sounds solid. Suprised you're not doing something like epiandro and 1 andro. That 4 andro can be a little wet since it aromatizes

 

[yates84]

1-5: havoc 30mg 1-4 40 4-5
1-5: 4AD 500 ED
4-9: epi 500mg ED
5-9: oral 1-test (not 1AD) 100mg ED

Oh nice, I like this setup. Makes perfect sense now!

 

[Juicedeez utz]

Sorry our messages have been split haha I wanted something wet to run with the havoc to help with the joints! Then PCT will be clomid, Trojan and epi-test, on cycle is sheild

 

[yates84]

Sorry our messages have been split haha I wanted something wet to run with the havoc to help with the joints! Then PCT will be clomid, Trojan and epi-test, on cycle is sheild

Hell yeah man, that should be a nice ride! You should log it

 

[Juicedeez utz]

I probably will end up logging it to be honest, I'll tag you in when I set it up bro

 

[tyga tyga]

True keto;

30g cho daily (or less)
0.6-0.7g protein daily
Rest of your calories is fat

Obviously you'll still need to be in a deficit to lose weight.

Refeeds on keto should be similar to CKDs layout.

 

[Juicedeez utz]

30g isn't true keto.... Everyone is different, I know someone who eats 80-90 grams of carbs and I still in full keto, all depends on your body's response to carbs but the lower end of the scale is better, 70F 25P 5C is what I'm aiming for! Refeeds would be to increase lipid sensitivity and use the insulin sensitivity to help solidly some of the gains

 

[yates84]

There are keto sticks that you can use to see if you're actually in keto, will help you dial in your correct amount of carbs

 

[Juicedeez utz]

There are keto sticks that you can use to see if you're actually in keto, will help you dial in your correct amount of carbs

I've actually got a box of ketostix ready I'm fully prepared for this, really wanting a six pack for the first time haha

 

[saywutrly]

Just a forewarning on the sticks; keto sticks don't always work. Many people will burn so many of the ketones when everything is optimal that it may not even trigger a keto stick.

 

[mmorso]

True keto;

30g cho daily (or less)
0.6-0.7g protein daily
Rest of your calories is fat

Obviously you'll still need to be in a deficit to lose weight.

Refeeds on keto should be similar to CKDs layout.

"True keto" is being in ketosis while dieting not adhering to a macro setup like it's a prescription. Lol.

I got over a g of protein/lb of body weight last keto run... some days I ate ~80g of carbs and remained in keto.

 

[tyga tyga]

"True keto" is being in ketosis while dieting not adhering to a macro setup like it's a prescription. Lol.

I got over a g of protein/lb of body weight last keto run... some days I ate ~80g of carbs and remained in keto.

So, lazy keto? When do macros not matter in dieting regardless of which diet you adhere to?

High protein isn't keto. Too much protein will cause gluconeogenisis and will kick you out. You'll never truly enter ketosis with high(er) protein consumption

Also, Ketostix test ketones in urine, which do not matter. It's ok to use as a gauge, but it doesn't test blood ketones which matter. Furthermore, once keto adapted ketostix wont even register ketones.

 

[tyga tyga]

30g isn't true keto.... Everyone is different, I know someone who eats 80-90 grams of carbs and I still in full keto, all depends on your body's response to carbs but the lower end of the scale is better, 70F 25P 5C is what I'm aiming for! Refeeds would be to increase lipid sensitivity and use the insulin sensitivity to help solidly some of the gains

http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2002-021480

*i believe this is the latest study ~ 2013

Cho 10%< of total calorie intake

20g was recommended

3 subjects were tested 20g-40g (40being the highest of cho intake)

Less cho = better chance of inducing ketosis

 

[bobi593]

There are keto sticks that you can use to see if you're actually in keto, will help you dial in your correct amount of carbs

sticks not always working I'm coming off 4 months cutt on Keto those bustards never show me more than slide/keto stage once you hit real keto you know....

 

[mmorso]

So, lazy keto? When do macros not matter in dieting regardless of which diet you adhere to?

High protein isn't keto. Too much protein will cause gluconeogenisis and will kick you out. You'll never truly enter ketosis with high(er) protein consumption

Also, Ketostix test ketones in urine, which do not matter. It's ok to use as a gauge, but it doesn't test blood ketones which matter. Furthermore, once keto adapted ketostix wont even register ketones.

Yeah bud I've lost 70lbs last year running a keto diet... I've fcked around with my macros and found that I can ingest more protein than .6g/lb and go above 50g carbs without being thrown out of keto.

I'm not sure what you mean by "true keto" and "lazy keto..." gives me the impression that your somewhat of a purist with the whole thing.

 

[tyga tyga]

Not at all.

Lazy keto is just eating keto without tracking. I don't even adhere to keto principals

 

[mmorso]

Not at all.

Lazy keto is just eating keto without tracking. I don't even adhere to keto principals

Lol. Good deal man there's people that make it a fckin religion...