Over trained?

[Punkrocker]

Ok so I'm on my 800mg test and 50mg anavar cycle. I'm getting surprisingly strong. Friday night I had a pretty intense leg workout and then Saturday morning I smashed chest and broke a pr. Saturday night my legs were so damn sore I had to take aspirin because I couldn't get comfortable in bed. It is now Sunday and I an totally drained, my legs still sore as hell and chest too, on top of that I got a small fever of 99.1
Did I just over do it? Need a rest day? Am I getting sick? What do u guys think.

 

[RegisterJr]

Chill out a couple days. Overtraining wouldn't cause a fever so it's likely something else.

At 800mg test it'd be hard to overtrain anyway unless your diet and sleep were crap

 

[Punkrocker]

Chill out a couple days. Overtraining wouldn't cause a fever so it's likely something else.

At 800mg test it'd be hard to overtrain anyway unless your diet and sleep were crap

Also Mon-Fri I literally chase a trash truck for 7 hours non stop chuckin heavy barrels around and I'm already sore from that, and then I hit the gym

 

[jakz]

Might be some Test flu? Up rest and protein if you feel like it.

 

[bruno.camilo]

Some sources of Testosterone causes this "flu symptom" on me. It really sux. I take smthing like aspirin, it helps, but short term only.

 

[Punkrocker]

Actually I am happy to report that I'm feeling much better today. Just got back from the gym. Smashed back and biceps. My ass was killing me when I was deadlifting but other than that it was a good workout. I'm thinking my body just needs to adjust to this new jump in strength

 

[smith_69]

test flu?? is this something like with the older PH that would get you sick after a few days, lowering the immune system?

 

[Bunshichi]

test flu?? is this something like with the older PH that would get you sick after a few days, lowering the immune system?

Exactly. The Test lowers some immune functions leaving you likely to get that much pathogens in the body that you get symptoms.

 

[Spurfy]

Excess testosterone suppresses cortisol. Cortisol is what prevents the symptoms of viral infections, and the reason you feel so miserable when you have the flu is because the influenza virus inhibits cortisol release by directly acting on ACTH. (1) The reason you feel so awful when you have the flu is that you have essentially "acquired secondary adrenal insufficiency."

See, cortisol isn't so bad...


1. Clin Infect Dis. 1998 Mar;26(3):708-10.

 

[Spurfy]

Excess testosterone suppresses cortisol release. Cortisol is what prevents the symptoms of viral infections, and the reason you feel so miserable when you have the flu is because the influenza virus inhibits cortisol release by directly acting on ACTH. (1) The profound fatigue, muscle aches and pains, sneezing, and generally feeling like you're dying is that you have essentially "acquired secondary adrenal insufficiency." People who die from the flu are actually dying from this adrenal insufficiency. These is a well-established volume of evidence showing that cortisol is capable of saving the lives of people who are literally hours away from death, from the flu and/or pneumonia.

People give cortisol a bad wrap, and most of the time these people have a complete and utter lack of understanding of this critical hormone. You can have zero testosterone and you might feel really crummy, but you'll live. Without adequate cortisol, you die. In a a few days or less. Period.

See, cortisol isn't so bad...


1. Clin Infect Dis. 1998 Mar;26(3):708-10.

 

[Rodja]

Cortisol rises while on test.

 

[Punkrocker]

Excess testosterone suppresses cortisol release. Cortisol is what prevents the symptoms of viral infections, and the reason you feel so miserable when you have the flu is because the influenza virus inhibits cortisol release by directly acting on ACTH. (1) The reason you feel so awful when you have the flu is that you have essentially "acquired secondary adrenal insufficiency."

People give cortisol a bad wrap, and most of the time these people have a complete and utter lack of understanding of this critical hormone. You can have zero testosterone and you might feel really crummy, but you'll live. Without adequate cortisol, you die. In a a few days or less. Period.

See, cortisol isn't so bad...


1. Clin Infect Dis. 1998 Mar;26(3):708-10.

Oh ****, that was very educational! You don't think if I stay on cycle too long I could drive my cortisol so low that I end up dying though right? ��

 

[Spurfy]

Cortisol rises while on test.

False.

1. "Testosterone Suppression of CRH-stimulated Cortisol in Men" Neuropsychopharmacology, 2005 October, 30(10):1906–1912,

 

[Spurfy]

Oh ****, that was very educational! You don't think if I stay on cycle too long I could drive my cortisol so low that I end up dying though right? ��

Not if you're otherwise healthy.

 

[Rodja]

False.

1. "Testosterone Suppression of CRH-stimulated Cortisol in Men" Neuropsychopharmacology, 2005 October, 30(10):1906–1912,

Uhh, no. While on the dosing that the OP is using, both cortisol and myostatin levels rise while T3 levels drop as an attempt to slow the mass gaining process.

 

[Spurfy]

Uhh, no. While on the dosing that the OP is using, both cortisol and myostatin levels rise while T3 levels drop as an attempt to slow the mass gaining process.

Cite a study or stop talking.

"No, you're wrong!" is how 1st graders argue.

 

[Rodja]

Cite a study or stop talking.

"No, you're wrong!" is how 1st graders argue.

Coming from the study showing what regarding supraphysiological levels of test and cortisol again? No **** that test levels are shot when cortisol is chronically elevated. Nothing is good when excessively high for a prolonged period of time. Are you really going to argue that TRT levels have the same effect, both from an ergogenic and health perspective, as 600mg/week?

It's at about the 10-12 mark (from a medium-long ester compound) that the cortisol levels start to rise. Pretty common knowledge that this is why they're so damn high when most people start their PCT, why gains slow down if prolonged past this point, or why compounds are added/doses increased.

 

[Punkrocker]

Yo $hit is gettin real AF up in here

 

[jakz]

Yo $hit is gettin real AF up in here

Want some popcorn?

 

[Spurfy]

Coming from the study showing what regarding supraphysiological levels of test and cortisol again? No **** that test levels are shot when cortisol is chronically elevated. Nothing is good when excessively high for a prolonged period of time. Are you really going to argue that TRT levels have the same effect, both from an ergogenic and health perspective, as 600mg/week?

It's at about the 10-12 mark (from a medium-long ester compound) that the cortisol levels start to rise. Pretty common knowledge that this is why they're so damn high when most people start their PCT, why gains slow down if prolonged past this point, or why compounds are added/doses increased.

So, were you going to cite a source?

I cited a source, a published study demonstrating that testosterone inhibits cortisol release, you've cited your own opinion and some "bro-science."

If you want a debate, then debate in a manner worthy of your graduate degree.

 

[Rodja]

So, were you going to cite a source?

I cited a source, a published study demonstrating that testosterone inhibits cortisol release, you've cited your own opinion and some "bro-science."

If you want a debate, then debate in a manner worthy of your graduate degree.

A cited a source on a TRT-dose of test, which is vastly different from the OP.

My info is straight from Patrick Arnold, who knows a thing or two about AAS and what they do.

 

[Spurfy]

A cited a source on a TRT-dose of test, which is vastly different from the OP.

It's not on any "dosage of test" -- it's a study describing the mechanisms of testosterone-induced suppression of adrenal hormone output. Did you even read it? Clearly not.

My info is straight from Patrick Arnold, who knows a thing or two about AAS and what they do.

I don't care who your information is from. If you cannot cite a valid scientific source, then it's just someone's opinion.

Here is one more study which clearly demonstrates the inhibitory effect of testosterone on cortisol release:

The inhibitory effect of testosterone on hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal responses to stress is mediated by the medial preoptic area. -J Neurosci. 1996 Mar 1;16(5):1866-76.

 

[Rodja]

It's not on any "dosage of test" -- it's a study describing the mechanisms of testosterone-induced suppression of adrenal hormone output. Did you even read it? Clearly not.



I don't care who your information is from. If you cannot cite a valid scientific source, then it's just someone's opinion.

Here is one more study which clearly demonstrates the inhibitory effect of testosterone on cortisol release:

The inhibitory effect of testosterone on hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal responses to stress is mediated by the medial preoptic area. -J Neurosci. 1996 Mar 1;16(5):1866-76.

Dafuq did you read then? In the study design section, it specifically mentions 200mg of TE v sesame oil placebo.

What would someone who has manufactured studies and designed PED programs for athletes know about how to implement them? Patrick Arnold isn't just a random dude. Boards like this are an indirect result of him.

Problem with your studies: the length of usage and the dosage. Those change EVERYTHING.

 

[Bunshichi]

Well if the reduced cortisol is the only cause of feeling bad the test flu would be permanent while beeing on high doses of test. Since its not that can't be the whole story Spurfy

 

[Spurfy]

Dafuq did you read then? In the study design section, it specifically mentions 200mg of TE v sesame oil placebo.

You're talking about dosages like they're relevant -- this is what I'm focusing on. The study I cited was not looking at a dose-dependent effect of testosterone on cortisol, it was demonstrating that testosterone is suppressive to cortisol. Do you actually think that dosing testosterone somehow magically results in a "U shaped" dose-response for cortisol output? If you're suggesting this, you need to bring a hell of a lot more to the table than "Because Patrick Arnold said so."

What would someone who has manufactured studies and designed PED programs for athletes know about how to implement them? Patrick Arnold isn't just a random dude. Boards like this are an indirect result of him.

Again, I don't care. If you can't cite a published study, then all you're doing is offering an opinion, someone else's opinion. Lame.

Problem with your studies: the length of usage and the dosage. Those change EVERYTHING.

Oh, yeah? Then cite a published study backing up anything that you've said. Just one. Seriously. Why can't you do this?

 

[Rodja]

You're talking about dosages like they're relevant -- this is what I'm focusing on. The study I cited was not looking at a dose-dependent effect of testosterone on cortisol, it was demonstrating that testosterone is suppressive to cortisol. Do you actually think that dosing testosterone somehow magically results in a "U shaped" dose-response for cortisol output? If you're suggesting this, you need to bring a hell of a lot more to the table than "Because Patrick Arnold said so."



Again, I don't care. If you can't cite a published study, then all you're doing is offering an opinion, someone else's opinion. Lame.



Oh, yeah? Then cite a published study backing up anything that you've said. Just one. Seriously. Why can't you do this?

Doses aren't relevant? You've done gone full retard to even suggest that doses don't change a response. Again, if you'd actually read what I'm saying, I'm agreeing with you, but your study is too short as there is a rebound. There's a rebound with every ****ing stress hormone when the axis is tilted.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

You're talking about dosages like they're relevant -- this is what I'm focusing on. The study I cited was not looking at a dose-dependent effect of testosterone on cortisol, it was demonstrating that testosterone is suppressive to cortisol. Do you actually think that dosing testosterone somehow magically results in a "U shaped" dose-response for cortisol output? If you're suggesting this, you need to bring a hell of a lot more to the table than "Because Patrick Arnold said so."



Again, I don't care. If you can't cite a published study, then all you're doing is offering an opinion, someone else's opinion. Lame.



Oh, yeah? Then cite a published study backing up anything that you've said. Just one. Seriously. Why can't you do this?

I don't want to get to far into this, and I'm posting from my phone, but when we're dealing with supplemental testosterone, the dose is something that has to be taken into consideration:

Serum total and free testosterone concentrations decreased from baseline in men receiving the 25- and 50-mg doses and increased at 300- and 600-mg doses.

Hemoglobin levels decreased significantly in men receiving the 50-mg dose but increased at the 600-mg dose

http://m.ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1172.full.pdf
I'm not saying that this is directly relevant or applicable to cortisol, only that the dose of testosterone used is important to the effects.

 

[Spurfy]

Doses aren't relevant? You've done gone full retard to even suggest that doses don't change a response. Again, if you'd actually read what I'm saying, I'm agreeing with you, but your study is too short as there is a rebound. There's a rebound with every ****ing stress hormone when the axis is tilted.

So, are you agreeing testosterone does in fact suppress cortisol? Because in your original reply, you said it "increases cortisol."

Which is it?

I will, of course, agree that the degree of suppression is obviously dose-dependent, this wasn't my arguement. What I don't agree with is that testosterone will ever "increase cortisol." Obviously, rebound disinhibition of the HPA-axis will occur upon discontinuation of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone, and cortisol levels will rise, but this is not the topic of discussion. The topic of discussion is: Is testosterone inhibitory to the release of cortisol? The answer is yes.

Are we in agreement?

 

[BlockBuilder]

I'm confused so does that mean people should run reduce XT while running test? I've always heard that exogenous hormones control cortisol and Cortisol spikes are more likely after a cycle not on it

 

[dave39]

Ok so I'm on my 800mg test and 50mg anavar cycle. I'm getting surprisingly strong. Friday night I had a pretty intense leg workout and then Saturday morning I smashed chest and broke a pr. Saturday night my legs were so damn sore I had to take aspirin because I couldn't get comfortable in bed. It is now Sunday and I an totally drained, my legs still sore as hell and chest too, on top of that I got a small fever of 99.1
Did I just over do it? Need a rest day? Am I getting sick? What do u guys think.

I'm going to ignore all the irrelevant dic.k measuring in this thread and advise you to get blood work done if you have a concern. It's impossible for any of us to really know what's going on with your body; as much as some internet heros wish they could.

I'm guessing you are feeling better now though?
The body can only take so much and when you have fever combined with soreness it could mean something...or just be coincidence.
Like any reasonable person who has discomfort, you should stop doing whatever is causing the discomfort and if symptoms don't disappear, or they get worse, than you should seek advice from a medical professional

 

[Rodja]

I've made it clear that there's initial lowering and then a subsequent rebound. Both cortisol and myostatin increase as the cycle length increases. Ever wonder why gains slow done so much as you progress? That's why.

 

[JG93]

Chill out a couple days. Overtraining wouldn't cause a fever so it's likely something else.

At 800mg test it'd be hard to overtrain anyway unless your diet and sleep were crap

Agreed lol.
I'm on 850mg test and overtraining is barely a thing.

I've been there done that.
With legs most of the time. That's those hammys!!

Next time, hit the hot bath after the gym, let them muscles soak, then give them a nice good foam roll!

My legs in 100000099 mg test get terribly sore!
Like Reg said, if your diet is on point, you are just fine!

I also suggest intaking protein within the hour after lifting!
Goodluck and keep training hard!

 

[Spurfy]

I've made it clear that there's initial lowering and then a subsequent rebound. Both cortisol and myostatin increase as the cycle length increases. Ever wonder why gains slow done so much as you progress? That's why.

So, you don't have a valid scientific source for your cortisol claim.

 

[Rodja]

So, you don't have a valid scientific source for your cortisol claim.

Neither do you.

 

[Blergs]

Exactly. The Test lowers some immune functions leaving you likely to get that much pathogens in the body that you get symptoms.

its in relation to the foreign compounds in body. iv been on test for years, even on cycle i get sick much less.
test flu seems to happen to people new to this and i feel is related to the test (solvents, oils etc. IMO)

 

[Blergs]

Ok so I'm on my 800mg test and 50mg anavar cycle. I'm getting surprisingly strong. Friday night I had a pretty intense leg workout and then Saturday morning I smashed chest and broke a pr. Saturday night my legs were so damn sore I had to take aspirin because I couldn't get comfortable in bed. It is now Sunday and I an totally drained, my legs still sore as hell and chest too, on top of that I got a small fever of 99.1
Did I just over do it? Need a rest day? Am I getting sick? What do u guys think.

could be CNS needing time to relax, you dont just ware out your muscles when you train. also heavy training can effect immune

 

[JG93]

could be CNS needing time to relax, you dont just ware out your muscles when you train. also heavy training can effect immune

Spot on, although when you learn to break that barrier, you become a god.

 

[Spurfy]

Neither do you.

"CRH-stimulated cortisol levels as well as peak cortisol and greatest cortisol excursion were significantly lower (p < .05, .005, and .01, respectively) during testosterone replacement [...] The cortisol:ACTH ratio, a measure of adrenal sensitivity, was lower during testosterone replacement [...] These data demonstrate that testosterone regulates CRH-stimulated HPA axis activity in men, with the divergent effects on ACTH and cortisol suggesting a peripheral (adrenal) locus for the suppressive effects on cortisol."

Testosterone Suppression of CRH-stimulated Cortisol in Men
Neuropsychopharmacology. 2005 Oct; 30(10): 1906–1912.

TESTOSTERONE SUPPRESSES CORTISOL.

If you reply with anything but a citation from a published study, which contradicts what I just posted, I'm going to absolutely eviscerate you in my next reply.

 

[Rodja]

"CRH-stimulated cortisol levels as well as peak cortisol and greatest cortisol excursion were significantly lower (p < .05, .005, and .01, respectively) during testosterone replacement [...] The cortisol:ACTH ratio, a measure of adrenal sensitivity, was lower during testosterone replacement [...] These data demonstrate that testosterone regulates CRH-stimulated HPA axis activity in men, with the divergent effects on ACTH and cortisol suggesting a peripheral (adrenal) locus for the suppressive effects on cortisol."

Testosterone Suppression of CRH-stimulated Cortisol in Men
Neuropsychopharmacology. 2005 Oct; 30(10): 1906–1912.

If you reply with anything but a citation from a published study I'm going to find you and punch you in the face.

What was the length again? Oh yeah....

 

[Spurfy]

What was the length again? Oh yeah....

You're an idiot. I'm done.

 

[Rodja]

You're an idiot. I'm done.

You never started in the first place. You presented a myopic, non-applicable study and made far too assumptions and applications. You can't apply a fishbowl to the ocean.

 

[bruno.camilo]

its in relation to the foreign compounds in body. iv been on test for years, even on cycle i get sick much less.
test flu seems to happen to people new to this and i feel is related to the test (solvents, oils etc. IMO)

For Sure. Real trust-able source of testosterone wont cause the test flu ... But thats hard to get. (about the solvents oils etc underground test)