help with cycle coming up.
- 05-09-2005, 06:40 PM
help with cycle coming up.
My goal is to get cut and get really strong. I do not want to gain to much weight. I want to run two orals. I know its not good to run to many orals but tell me what you think.
Winny 50mg ED week 1-8.
Anavar 40mg Ed week 1-6
suggestions would be of great help. thanks guys. im new here so i cant wait to get some responses.
- 05-09-2005, 06:48 PM
First off.. do a little research on the two things that you mentioned and you will see that most of us, don't suggest this... also what does you diet look like?
05-09-2005, 06:49 PM
Just some personal information if it would help you guys:Originally Posted by fahmie86
204 pounds 5'10 height
have done cycles of prohormones in the past including M1T( which I hated )
Bf% 8-9% right now.
Goals w/ above cycle: get ripped And get strong as hell.
Reasons for not using test or any other injectables and/or orals: not able to get my hands on any.
05-09-2005, 06:58 PM
Trust me. I have done as much research as I possibly could. I understand they are both 17aa and are liver toxic.Originally Posted by Matthew D
Just wondering if anyone has ever run two orals before.
Also, if it is ill advised to do so and run two orals. Which would one suggest to run out of the two. Winny or anavar. This is in terms of strength/cut.
05-09-2005, 07:13 PM
Some form of Test should always be used as the base for any cycle. Get some test prop or test enan and keep either the winny or var, but drop one.
05-09-2005, 07:22 PM
If one would suggest just to run one or the other. Which would you choose Winny or Var. assuming you are looking for cut/strength with low sides.Originally Posted by Cuffs
05-09-2005, 07:28 PM
Personally, I would not advise running either without some test. However, anavar is much milder with less sides. It's just a lot more expensive. I can find a couple of profiles on each and post them up if you'd like.
05-09-2005, 07:32 PM
Well, here you go with the profile for anavar:
OXANDROLONE Substance: oxandrolone
Anavar (o.c.) 2.5 mg tab.; Searle U.S.
Anatrophill (o.c.) 2.5 mg tab.; Searle FR
Lipidex 2.5 mg tab.; Searle Brazil
Lonavar (o.c.) 2.5 mg tab.; Searle Argentina
Lonavar 2 mg tab.; Dainippon Japan
Oxandrolone SPA 2.5 mg tab.; SPA I
Vasorome 0.5 mg tab.; Kowa Japan
Oxandrolone 5 mg tab; Ttokkyo Labs
Vasorome 2 mg tab.; Kowa Japan
Searle Company introduced the substance oxandrolone to the U.S. market in 1964 under the name Anavar and it enjoyed great popu-larity for over two decades until, on July 1, 1989, the produc-tion of Anavar was phased out. Today Anavar is manufactured under its various generic names in only a few countries (see above). The compound with the generic name Oxandrolone SPA by S.p.A. Milano Company (SocietÃ* Prodotti Antibiotica) from Italy is the only original anabolic steroid available in Europe which contains the substance oxandrolone. There are 30 tablets in one box with two push-through strips of 15 tablets each. Oxandrolone is a weak steroid with only a slight androgenic component. It has been shown that Oxandrolone, when taken in reasonable dos-ages, rarely has any side effects. This is appreciated since Oxandrolone was developed mostly for women and children. Oxandrolone is one of the few steroids which does not cause an early stunting of growth in children since it does not prematurely close the epiphysial growth plates. For this reason Oxandrolone is mostly used in children to stimulate growth and in women to prevent osteoporosis. Oxandrolone causes very light virilization symptoms, if at all. This characteristic makes Oxandrolone a fa-vored remedy for female athletes since, at a daily dose of 10-15 mg, masculinizing symptoms are observed only rarely.
Bodybuilders and powerlifters, in particular, like Oxandrolone for three reasons. First, Oxandrolone causes a strong strength gain by stimulating the phosphocreatine synthesis in the muscle cell without depositing liquid (water) in the joints and the muscles. Powerlifters and weightlifters who do not want to end up in a higher weight class take advantage of this since it allows them to get stronger without gaining body weight at the same time. The combination of Oxandrolone and 20 - 30 mg Holotestin daily has proven to be very effective since the muscles also look harder. Similarly good results can be achieved by a simultaneous intake of Oxandrolone and 120-140 mcg Clenbuterol per day. Although Oxandrolone itself does not cause a noticeable muscle growth it can clearly improve the muscle-developing effect of many ste-roids. Deca-Durabolin, Dianabol, and the various testosterone compounds, in particular, combine well with Oxandrolone to achieve a "mass buildup" because the strength gain caused by the intake of these highly tissue-developing and liquid-retaining sub-stances results in an additional muscle mass. A stack of 200 mg Deca-Durabolin/week, 500 mg Testosterone enanthate (e.g. Testoviron Depot 250)/week, and 25 mg Oxandrolone/day leads to a good gain in strength and mass in most athletes. Deca-Durabolin has a distinct anabolic effect and stimulates the syn-thesis of protein; Oxandrolone improves the strength by a higher phosphocreatine synthesis; and Testosterone enanthate increases the aggressiveness for the workout and accelerates regeneration.
The second reason why Oxandrolone is so popular is that this compound does not aromatize in any dosage. As already men-tioned, a certain part of the testosterone present in the body is converted into estrogen. This aromatization process, depending on the predisposition, can vary distinctly from one athlete to another. Oxandrolone is one of the few steroids which cannot aromatize to estrogen. This characteristic has various advantages for the athlete. With Oxandrolone the muscle system does not get the typical watery appearance as with many steroids, thus making it very interesting during the preparation for a competition. In this phase it is especially important to keep the estrogen level as low as possible since estrogen programs the body to store water even if the diet is calorie-reduced. In combination with a diet, Oxandrolone helps to make the muscles har~ and ripped. Although Oxandrolone itself does not break downfat, it plays an indirect role in this process because the substancr-often suppresses the athlete's appetite. Oxandrolone can also cause some bloating which in several athletes results in nausea and vomiting when the tablets are taken with meals. The package insert of the Italian Oxandrolone notes its effect on the activity of the gas-trointestinal tract. Some athletes thus report continued diarrhea. Although these symptoms are not very pleasant they still help the athlete break down fat and become harder. Those who work out for a competition or are interested in gaining quality muscles should combine Oxandrolone with steroids such as Winstrol, Parabolan, Masteron, Primobolan, and Testosterone propionate. A stack of 50 mg Winstrol every two days, 50 mg Testosterone propionate every two days, and 25 mg Oxandrolone every day has proven effective. Another advantage of Oxandrolone's non-aromatization is that athletes who suffer from high blood pres-sure or develop gynecomastia of the thymus glands when taking stronger androgenic steroids will not have these side effects with this compound. The. Oxandrolone/Deca-Durabolin stack is a wel-come alternative for this group of athletes or for athletes show-ing signs of poor health during mass buildup with testosterone, Dianabol, or Anadrol 50. Athletes over forty should predomi-nantly use Oxandrolone.
The third reason which speaks well for an intake of Oxandrolone is that even in a very high dosage this compound does not influ-ence the body's own testosterone production. To make this clear: Oxandrolone does not suppress the body's own hormone pro-duction. The reason is that it does not have a negative feedback mechanism on the hypothalamohypophysial testicular axis, meaning that during the intake of Oxandrolone, unlike during the intake of most anabolic steroids, the testes signal the hypo-thalamus not to reduce or to stop the release of GnRH (gonadot-ropin releasing hormone) and LHRH Luteinizing hormon releas-ing hormone). This special feature of Oxandrolone can be explained by the fact that the substance is not converted into estrogen Oxandrolone (Anavar), when given to normal men in high doses does not reduce the seminal volume or count, nor can it be converted (aromatized) into estrogen.
Oxandrolone combines very well with Andriol, since Andriol does not aromatize in a dosage of up to 240 mg daily and has only slight influence on the hormone production. The daily intake of 280 mg Andriol and 25 mg Oxandrolone re-sults in a good gain in strength and, in steroid novices, also in muscle mass without excessive water retention and without a significant influence on testosterone production. As for the dos-age of Oxandrolone, 8-12 tablets in men and 5-6 tablets in women seem to bring the best results. The rule of thumb to take 0.125 mg/pound of body weight daily has proven successful in clinical tests. The tablets are normally taken two to three times daily after meals thus assuring an optimal absorption of the substance. Those who get the already discussed gastrointestinal pain when taking Oxandrolone are better off taking the tablets one to two hours after a meal or switching to another compound.
Since Oxandrolone is only slightly toxic and usually shows few side effects it is used by several athletes over a prolonged period of time. However Oxandrolone should not be taken for several consecutive months, since, as with almost all oral steroids it is 1 7-alpha alky-lated and thus liver toxic. Oxandrolone is an all-purpose remedy which, depending on the athlete's goal, is very versatile. Women who react sensitively to the intake of anabolic steroids achieve good results when combining Oxandrolone/Primobolan Tabs and/or Clenbuterol, without suffering from the usual virilization symp-toms. Women, however, should not take more than 6 tablets daily. otherwise, androgenic-caused side effects such as acne, deep voice, clitorial hypertrophy or increased growth of body hair can occur.
Probably the largest disadvantages that come along with Oxandrolone are its high price and poor availability on the black market. Original Oxandrolone costs about $1 - 2 per tablet on the black market and is rarely avail-able, if at all.
05-09-2005, 07:33 PM
Here's the profile for Winny/Tabs:
WINSTROL TABS Substance: stanozolol
Stromba (o.c.) 5 mg tab.; Winthrop CH, DK, NL, G, Sterling- Winthrop S, Ster
Stromba 5 mg tab.; Winthrop B
Stromba 5 mg tab.; Sterling-Health HU, CZ
Winstrol (o.c.) 2 mg tab.; Winthrop GR, PT
StanolV 10 mg tab; Ttokkyo Labs
Winstrol 2 mg tab.; Winthrop Pharm. U.S., Upjohn U.S., Zambon ES,
Much of what has been said about the injectable Winstrol is more or less also valid for the oral Winstrol. However, in addition to the various forms of administration there are some other differ-ences so that a separate description-as with Primobolan-seems to make sense. For a majority of its users Winstrol tablets are noticeably less effective than the injections. We are, however, unable to give you a logical explanation or scientific evidence for this fact. Since the tablets are I 7-alpha alkylated it is extremely unlikely that during the first pass in the liver a part of the sub-stance will be deactivated, so we can exclude this possibility.
One of the reasons for the lowered effectiveness of the tablets, in our opinion, is that most athletes do not take a high enough quantity of Winstrol tablets. Considering the fact that the inject-able Winstrol Depot is usually taken in a dosage of 50 mg/day or at least 50 mg every second day and when comparing this with the actual daily quantity of tablets taken by many athletes, our thesis is confirmed. Since, in the meantime, most athletes only get the 2 mg Winstrol tablets by Zambon one would have to take at least 12-25 tablets daily to obtain the quantity of the sub-stance one receives when injecting. For two reasons, most athletes, how-ever, cannot realize this. On the one hand, at a price of approximately $0.70 - $1 for one 2 mg tablet on the black market the cost for this compound is extremely high. On the other hand, after a longer intake such a high quantity of tablets can lead to gastrointestinal pain and an undesired increase in the liver values since the tablets -as already mentioned- are. 1 7-alpha alkylated and thus are a considerable stress on the liver. Male athletes who have access to the injectable Winstrol Depot should therefore prefer this form of administration to the tab-lets. Women, however, often prefer the oral Winstrol This, by all means, makes sense since female athletes have a distinctly lower daily requirement of stanozolol, usually 10-16 mg/day. Thus the daily quantity of tablets is reduced to 5-8 so that gastrointes-tinal pain and increased liver values occur very rarely. Another reason for the oral intake in women is that the dosage to be taken can be divided into equal doses. This has the advantage that unlike the 50 mg injections-it does not lead to a significant in-crease in the androgens and thus the androgenic-caused side ef-fects (virilization symptoms) can be reduced. Athletes who have opted for the oral administration of Winstrol usually take their daily dose in two equal amounts mornings and evenings with some liquid during their meals. This assures a good absorption of the substance and, at the same time, minimizes possible gas-trointestinal pain.
05-09-2005, 07:36 PM
Cuffs thank you for all your help so far.Originally Posted by Cuffs
I am considering running anavar alone at 50mg ed. maby i still have to work some things out. I have read the profiles of each at, steroidolody.com...
what interested me in your above statement is you suggested not running either without the use of some form of Test. can you please elaborate on that? as far as picking what to run, i am looking for the least amount of sides possible. I know I might get a plethora of sides on test. What also interests me is the fact that I would not have to run any PCT if I were to run Anavar alone. This fact, along with the fact that it is awesome for strength, and also has low sides; makes it seem to me as somthing I am definitly looking at running.
Looking at Anavar, as opposed to winstrol, I have not heard much about it getting you cut in terms of how much winstrol can. this is why i considered stacking both, knowing well that they are liver toxic, but from what i understand Anavar has extremely low liver toxic properties eventhough it is a 17aa.
05-09-2005, 07:42 PM
Personally, I would not run both. I don't see it as being responsible. You may be able to run it and come out just fine. However, that's the choice you need to make.
As for test, a test prop would be a nice compound to run for a cut. Some even use an enanthate with good results. The reason for test is to keep certain sides you may receive from the other compounds to a minimum. Such as loss in libido, lethargy, etc. Also, using a form of test with an oral will better assure you of keeping what gains you may obtain.
Don't get me wrong, there are those who do oral only cycles and feel they are appropriate, and see results. However, I think the results they received would be better benefited had they added in some test.
05-09-2005, 07:42 PM
in the anavar profile(thank you for posting both they were very informative) it says one can stack anavar with winstrol. middle paragraph i believe.Originally Posted by fahmie86
05-09-2005, 07:45 PM
I ripped this profile from another site. Some stack orals without doing any form of blood tests after the cycle is complete. The method of cycle posted is probably something from out dated advice. Even Bigcat's profiles on bb.com are outdated for the most part.
05-09-2005, 07:49 PM
cuffs, first off i cannot thank you enough for the help you are currently giving me. it is near impossible to find such quick responses.Originally Posted by Cuffs
secondly, the reason for not running test would be acne, bloat, shutdown... ect. the above steroids i am interested seem to have the least of all of them. So if one were to run an oral alone without test which would the advisable.
05-09-2005, 07:54 PM
Personally, I would go with Anavar for a stand-alone with its milder sides, and hunger suppressant qualities. However, there may be others who will prefer Winny.
I personally have not used either, so those who have may add in their experiences.
05-09-2005, 08:00 PM
lol, it seems as no one else wants to add any experience. As of right now I am leaning towards a stand alone anavar cycle. But you expressed that others might prefer winny over it. If you were to guess why one would choose this over the two, why would that be.Originally Posted by Cuffs
05-09-2005, 08:04 PM
Probably due to its popularity and cost. Winny is much more available and is much cheaper. Also, I believe winny will cause strength gains faster.
05-09-2005, 08:10 PM
this is what i am looking for, and am i wrong in saying this, but doesn't winny also get you more cut than anavar would?Originally Posted by Cuffs
05-09-2005, 08:12 PM
05-09-2005, 08:19 PM
You need to re-evaluate your goals.
You state that you are under 10% yet you want to get ripped?
Diet will get you further than Winny, or Anavar, or AAS for that matter right now.
Cuffs has given some good advice, stacking two orals is not the best idea.
05-09-2005, 08:34 PM
right now i have been measured as under 10%, and i understand that diet is everything. I am just trying to get some feedback on which would be better for aid in fat loss with proper diet and cardio already in place.Originally Posted by ryansm
05-09-2005, 08:39 PM
FWIW, my opinion is that you're not going to be able to do better than a test/tren cycle. If you hate bloat, use an AI. Everything shuts you down; hCG will keep things going and let you recover quickly. Acne can be taken care of with vitamin B5.
Your results will be substantially superior, and in the end you'll be happier with yourself for having done things right.
05-09-2005, 08:39 PM
Basically, you don't want to use AAS's as a crutch. Have your diet and training in check first. AAS's should only be used as a "finishing touch" so to speak.
05-09-2005, 08:39 PM
You have already been handed a ton of info. My feedback would be continue to diet/train properly, and spend some time on this board researching, instead of letting others do it for you.
05-09-2005, 08:48 PM
again everyone, especially Cuffs, thank you for all the information provided. You have all been extremely helpful, and I believe I have come to a decision how what I will be using.Originally Posted by ryansm
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