Epi-Andro + 4 Andro question

[sokyute]

Now I have seen controversial topics regarding the stacking of these two PH's from IronMagLabs. some saying theyre good together some saying theyre not. I personally have not tried this combo myself so I would like to ask to anyone who has or anyone who knows more about these two PH's if there are any good beneficial gains off combining these two. When I first looked at the combination of these two I was mainly looking to build mass while at the same time cut down heavily on fat.

EDIT*
Second question: Can I combine the old 4 andro RX or Epi-Andro RX with stacks from any of ironmaglabs newer updated versions of prohormones such as the "super andro series" such as super 1 andro

 

[Canes325]

You could stack them together, but typically it's one or the other used as a test base to a stronger PH. What are your stats right? What are you trying to accomplish? Recomp?

 

[mountainman33]

1 Andro with either is usually for size. Not to say you can't get some size, 4 Andro will help, and epiandro is good for strength and aggression. Plus epiandro had some AI properties so that helps to offset the slight estro conversion from 4 Andro.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Using both as a base for a 19-Nor right now. Like MM said, I chose to do so for the AI properties, mainly. No problems noted after 7 weeks. Adding T and DHT is a pretty complete plan, rather than relying on the 5ar of T into DHT. I guess it would be like the Old School Test + Anavar?

 

[Smont]

Theres nothing wrong with stacking them, its just that there both typically used to offset the ph doing the real work in your cycle. 4 ad is a wet base and epi is dry, pretty sure dht sides, strength aggression ect. Both together would be great as your base to a stronger ph but alone i wouldn't expect much

 

[sokyute]

1 Andro with either is usually for size. Not to say you can't get some size, 4 Andro will help, and epiandro is good for strength and aggression. Plus epiandro had some AI properties so that helps to offset the slight estro conversion from 4 Andro.

Ahh I see, exactly what I thought.

 

[sokyute]

You could stack them together, but typically it's one or the other used as a test base to a stronger PH. What are your stats right? What are you trying to accomplish? Recomp?

Basically body recomp.
Im 22 years old, looking for an extra edge to get the perfect body I want, not decent but perfect lol. anyways I weigh 160 lbs at 27% bodyfat. I am utilizing a hypertrophy routine for my weight lifting but im looking into and researching lower rep heavier weight for more dense "functional" muscle. I basically just want to get very lean like 8% or less body fat and build some dense hard muscle, considering that I would be skinny if I didnt have all this bodyfat I thought it would be a good idea to go with 4 andro for a little size because of that, also I read during my research that 1 andro might cause anxiety which Ive had a problem with anxiety before in the past.

 

[sokyute]

Theres nothing wrong with stacking them, its just that there both typically used to offset the ph doing the real work in your cycle. 4 ad is a wet base and epi is dry, pretty sure dht sides, strength aggression ect. Both together would be great as your base to a stronger ph but alone i wouldn't expect much

I like the cutting effects and the weight loss im reading about with Epi-Andro, should I stack that with 1 andro instead?

 

[mountainman33]

Honestly, you should get sub 20% before you start any cycle. Probably even lower than that.

 

[gagandugan]

Honestly, you should get sub 20% before you start any cycle. Probably even lower than that.

I strongly agree. I'd even say close to 15%.

 

[sokyute]

Honestly, you should get sub 20% before you start any cycle. Probably even lower than that.

Yeah see?? That was another topic that had alot of controversy too. I was under the impression that a high bodyfat content will cause your **** to automatize then bitch tits might possibly come in. Then when I ask people on this forum they say that 1 andro and epi-andro have a low conversion rate thus making aromatization irrelevant .....i dont even know anymore I think im just gonna cut below 20% bodyfat then go from there.

 

[mountainman33]

Yeah see?? That was another topic that had alot of controversy too. I was under the impression that a high bodyfat content will cause your **** to automatize then bitch tits might possibly come in. Then when I ask people on this forum they say that 1 andro and epi-andro have a low conversion rate thus making aromatization irrelevant .....i dont even know anymore I think im just gonna cut below 20% bodyfat then go from there.

It's 4AD that has some estro conversion. That's where Epiandro would help as it has some AI properties of its own. Epiandro will not aromatize.

 

[yates84]

Yeah see?? That was another topic that had alot of controversy too. I was under the impression that a high bodyfat content will cause your **** to automatize then bitch tits might possibly come in. Then when I ask people on this forum they say that 1 andro and epi-andro have a low conversion rate thus making aromatization irrelevant .....i dont even know anymore I think im just gonna cut below 20% bodyfat then go from there.

Its about more than that. Even if a compound doesn't aromatize doesn't mean that it can't cause high estrogen sides. High body fat sets you up for high bp issues and lots of unnecessary stress on the heart. Not to mention you will be adding more weight on to your frame that is already over weight. It just isn't a good idea to cycle with high body fat

 

[The_Old_Guy]

You're 22. How long you been lifting *properly*? I'm 48 and can honestly say that until Apr 2014 - I knew jack sh&t about proper programming. I was the classic "3 sets of 10, Bench and Biceps" moron.

You're 27%, so nutrition is pretty much shot. I was worse than you mate, 285lbs at probably 4x% - I'm a hair over 6 feet. 211 last weigh in after 17 months.

You can add mass and lose fat at the same time when at higher BF% - you've got a built in energy store. Fasted cardio on some coffee and Yohimbine (if you tolerate it), enough protein (I did 1.6g per KG when I was fat) as well as overall macros, bulk Creatine/Beta Alanine and some Fearn's Soy lecithin Granules - All of that is cheap as heck, no need to drain the wallet.

My point is, you are most likely at your peak hormone levels right now, and nowhere near your genetic potential - why mess with PHs?. Get your programming on point, use Mifflin-St. Jeore to figure out your TDEE, and eat 500kcals less, and train your ass off properly. In a year, re-visit the issue.

 

[sokyute]

You're 22. How long you been lifting *properly*? I'm 48 and can honestly say that until Apr 2014 - I knew jack sh&t about proper programming. I was the classic "3 sets of 10, Bench and Biceps" moron.

You're 27%, so nutrition is pretty much shot. I was worse than you mate, 285lbs at probably 4x% - I'm a hair over 6 feet. 211 last weigh in after 17 months.

You can add mass and lose fat at the same time when at higher BF% - you've got a built in energy store. Fasted cardio on some coffee and Yohimbine (if you tolerate it), enough protein (I did 1.6g per KG when I was fat) as well as overall macros, bulk Creatine/Beta Alanine and some Fearn's Soy lecithin Granules - All of that is cheap as heck, no need to drain the wallet.

My point is, you are most likely at your peak hormone levels right now, and nowhere near your genetic potential - why mess with PHs?. Get your programming on point, use Mifflin-St. Jeore to figure out your TDEE, and eat 500kcals less, and train your ass off properly. In a year, re-visit the issue.

"fasted cardio" does anyone else have any input regarding this apart from all the controversy on the net?

 

[mountainman33]

I don't do cardio myself, I use metabolic conditioning instead, and I'm the leanest I've ever been, even with a semi clean diet. But I take bcaas and pwo in the morning before a workout.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

"fasted cardio" does anyone else have any input regarding this apart from all the controversy on the net?

A Metabolic Cart shows it works, according to Lonny Lowry. Shoenfeld said it may not be necessary. I look at it this way - I don't like "huffing and puffing" on a stomach with food it it. Plus, if you do the normal dawn til dark work thing, getting it out of the way first thing, is easier.