First Cycle Clarity

[All Creation]

Hey guys. Long-time lurker checking in.

***Skip this if you just want the main point***

So I have been doing research off and on for the past few months and I am getting closer to taking the plunge and giving up my natty card.

A little about me:
I'm 30 and started dedicated lifting on September 1st 2010 and I hit the gym 5-6 days a week. The first three years of lifting I alternated between different "bro" style bodybuilding splits, and the last two years I have been doing more of a powerlifting split focused around deadlifts, bench, and squats.

I have always been heavy, and have an Endo style somatotype (if anyone even uses that anymore). I'm 6'0 and weigh 285 with a lot of fat, probably 70 pounds worth, though I don't know my actual bodyfat %. I definitely need to get my diet in check, and the last two years have been a bit of a shameful dreamer-bulk.

I have recently felt horrible overall, lack of motivation, fatigue, plateaud size and strength gains, etc. I'm just not feeling the drive as much as I have the past five years. I know a lot of this is likely due to my fat, but out of curiosity I had my bloodwork done and my results weren't great but not horrible from what I can tell:

Total T: 439.6 Range: 348-1197 ng/dl
Free T: 13.0 Range: 8.7-25.1 pg/ml
LH: 5.0 Range: 1.7-8.6 mIU/ml
FSH: 2.9 Range: 1.7-12.4 mIU/ml
Estradiol: 42.7 Range: 7.6-42.6 pg/ml

So my T is on the lower end and E is high. I am starting to think that a little outside help would be nice in the hormone department.



***Start here for the main point***

I've been researching the remaining legal compounds and from what I have seen I feel the most comfortable with Epiandrosterone/Androvar. I am wanting any first cycle I do to be mild.

I have considered Ostarine, but for some reason I feel really wary of it and feel like a DHEA derivitave may be more trustworthy than a SARM.

From what I have read Epiandro is non-methylated, so it is easy on the liver, and does not aromatize, so it has slim to no chance of causing gyno. It also can function as a Test base and so will not have the lethargy of 1-andro or the wetness of 4-andro. The compound is also supposed to help reduce or keep estrogen in check by itself. In fact the only real side I see revolves around DHT conversion and hair loss.

So am I missing something? I'm failing to see why this compound isn't more popular than just 1-andro or 4-andro if running a single compound.

My plan for the six week cycle (subject to change based on feedback!):

Androvar:
300/300/300/300/300/300

30 day PCT:
Post Cycle 3x
BLR Rebirth
Purus Labs D-Pol

Your comments and feedback are appreciated!

 

[JeremyNG25]

Why not just take an anti estrogen to see what happens? Also why cycle if you can clearly make natural gains. So many ppl just want to hop on anabolic drugs as soon as they can. Why? Because these drugs are the main factor in why these guys gain so much size. They like to justify the growth and say" oh it's because my diet and training are on point" blah blah blah but the truth is a lot of these guys don't have a clue as to what their doing or what they want and are acting impulsively when they should have done a lot more research. Androvar is very mild but still why not test your natural abilities and see what you're really capable of. I promise you'll feel better about it in the end. Try BLR's Letrone, get blood work and go from there. That's my advice

 

[demonfox]

I don't know if I missed it or not but what is your goal? What are you trying to accomplish out of this cycle?

 

[All Creation]

Thanks for the feedback, Jeremy! I have also thought about using Inhibit-E or giving Letrone a try. I have put a lot of thought into this and don't plan to jump in lightly, hence my being here. I have been lifting for 5 years solid though. Is that generally seen as hasty when it comes to natural gains? I didn't think I was being impatient at this point, haha.

And my goal is to maintain LBM while cutting. I plan on doing a fairly large deficit of 1000-1200 calories for the length of the cycle.

 

[afluck410]

He wants to get that drive back he's missing from the gym^
He's 30 and has been lifting since 2010, Who cares if he wants to hop on the anabolic band wagon now. He's 30 and has probably gotten close to natty limit (just needs to cut the fat) which I feel like epiandro would do great in muscle sparing as he knocks off a few BF% in an 8 week run

 

[afluck410]

So, I say go for it man. I'd honestly stack 1-andro and epiandro. Get the anabolism from 1-test and the drive/focus from epiandro!

 

[demonfox]

If you're looking to cut, idk how effective epiandro will be. I only know that it's good for tackling lethargy and what not.

But you should look into osta. It's really good at preserving lbm at a deficit. You could easily do a 8 week cycle of Osta. You can even extend that to 10-12 weeks depending on how you feel. Whatever you decide to do, definitely don't start off at 1000 cal deficit. If you do then it will be really hard for you to cut after some time

 

[vujade]

Hey guys. Long-time lurker checking in.

***Skip this if you just want the main point***

So I have been doing research off and on for the past few months and I am getting closer to taking the plunge and giving up my natty card.

A little about me:
I'm 30 and started dedicated lifting on September 1st 2010 and I hit the gym 5-6 days a week. The first three years of lifting I alternated between different "bro" style bodybuilding splits, and the last two years I have been doing more of a powerlifting split focused around deadlifts, bench, and squats.

I have always been heavy, and have an Endo style somatotype (if anyone even uses that anymore). I'm 6'0 and weigh 285 with a lot of fat, probably 70 pounds worth, though I don't know my actual bodyfat %. I definitely need to get my diet in check, and the last two years have been a bit of a shameful dreamer-bulk.

I have recently felt horrible overall, lack of motivation, fatigue, plateaud size and strength gains, etc. I'm just not feeling the drive as much as I have the past five years. I know a lot of this is likely due to my fat, but out of curiosity I had my bloodwork done and my results weren't great but not horrible from what I can tell:

Total T: 439.6 Range: 348-1197 ng/dl
Free T: 13.0 Range: 8.7-25.1 pg/ml
LH: 5.0 Range: 1.7-8.6 mIU/ml
FSH: 2.9 Range: 1.7-12.4 mIU/ml
Estradiol: 42.7 Range: 7.6-42.6 pg/ml

So my T is on the lower end and E is high. I am starting to think that a little outside help would be nice in the hormone department.



***Start here for the main point***

I've been researching the remaining legal compounds and from what I have seen I feel the most comfortable with Epiandrosterone/Androvar. I am wanting any first cycle I do to be mild.

I have considered Ostarine, but for some reason I feel really wary of it and feel like a DHEA derivitave may be more trustworthy than a SARM.

From what I have read Epiandro is non-methylated, so it is easy on the liver, and does not aromatize, so it has slim to no chance of causing gyno. It also can function as a Test base and so will not have the lethargy of 1-andro or the wetness of 4-andro. The compound is also supposed to help reduce or keep estrogen in check by itself. In fact the only real side I see revolves around DHT conversion and hair loss.

So am I missing something? I'm failing to see why this compound isn't more popular than just 1-andro or 4-andro if running a single compound.

My plan for the six week cycle (subject to change based on feedback!):

Androvar:
300/300/300/300/300/300

30 day PCT:
Post Cycle 3x
BLR Rebirth
Purus Labs D-Pol

Your comments and feedback are appreciated!

Welcome to the forums bro.

1st off, yes your T is a little low for someone your age and E2 is borderline high.

You've got a couple options here...

1. You could first try to combat this naturally. Jump on Viron plus Letrone to both boost your
Test levels and lower your E2 (lowering E2, will also raise Test levels)

2. Jump into the world or Anabolics (SARMS, PH/DS/AAS)

3. Get on TRT/HRT (not something i would personally do just yet at your age)

If you opt for option 2 now, Do as much research as possible about cycles, cycle care and PCT.

Most people don't run EpiAndro solo for a few reasons. EpiAndro converts to DHT, not Testosterone.

Running EpiAndro solo, would be like running Anavar or Masteron solo with Test E, C or P.

DHT primarily increases strength, agression, libido, leanness, and muscle hardness. but Its not very anabolic per se.

It's something you would run with something like 1-Andro, 4-Andro or Trest, or with Osta or LGD if running SARMS.

EpiAndro is not going to do anything whatsoever to your Test levels in regards to increasing them. It will
probably lower them somewhat though while you are on it.

EpiAndro is a great compound, that is weak by nature, and has to be run at high doses to be effective. Usually in
the 300 to 600mg per day range.

I personally enjoy it myself, but would never suggest a solo run of it.

 

[All Creation]

So, I say go for it man. I'd honestly stack 1-andro and epiandro. Get the anabolism from 1-test and the drive/focus from epiandro!

Thanks for the support and the suggestion!

If you're looking to cut, idk how effective epiandro will be. I only know that it's good for tackling lethargy and what not.

But you should look into osta. It's really good at preserving lbm at a deficit. You could easily do a 8 week cycle of Osta. You can even extend that to 10-12 weeks depending on how you feel. Whatever you decide to do, definitely don't start off at 1000 cal deficit. If you do then it will be really hard for you to cut after some time

Osta is the other compound I have been mostly considering, it just seems to have more sides than the DHEA compounds from what I've read. I am really wanting to avoid anything that aromatizes at this point since my E is already a bit high and I would rather not invite something like Gyno. I will continue to consider it though.

And thanks for the awesome info, vujade! That explains a lot as to why I don't see much info about solo runs of epiandro. I was really hoping to run just a single compound for my first cycle to monitor effectiveness, but perhaps I will have to do a stack.

I was initially thinking 1-andro but the lethargy is not what I need/want at this point since I am already fatigued.

Would it be feasible or just a waste of time to do a lower dosage cycle of 200mg of 1-andro and 200mg epiandro daily for the 6 weeks?

 

[mountainman33]

I'm going to second using 1-AD or 4-AD with your Androvar. It does have great qualities for strength, and dry gains, but as stated it's not a true size gainer. I'm currently using it as a test base with my Sledge run. I have run it solo, and was completely happy with it, especially the alpha feeling and gigantic libido push, but it works great in conjunction as a combination.

http://www.strongsupplementshop.com/andro-the-giant-by-hard-rock-supplements

http://www.strongsupplementshop.com/super-mandro-by-hard-rock-supplements

 

[vujade]

Its tough just finding one compound to run.

1-andro makes a good solo run, but lethargy can be a pain in the you know what once it kicks in;

4-andro makes a good test base, so now lethargy, but you probably won't see as much muscle growth as 1-andro.

Osta & LGD are both going to cause lethargy eventually as well, because they will suppress test.

If you wanted to add something mild to avoid the lethargy of 1-andro, you could always use Dermacrine,
which is just DHEA & Pregnalone, and its transdermal, so don't have to worry about it effecting your liver,
but it will keep up your libido and it will help with the lethargy of 1-andro.

If you are looking to do a lean bulk, i would recommend 1 of the following 3 cycle...

1-andro w/ dermacrine
1-andro w/ Androvar
1-andro w/ 4 andro

Personally i would start the 1-andro first, use it for about 2 weeks, then add in the second compound in
the beginning of week 3.

This will do 2 things for you....

1. if will also to see how you react to 1-andro solo for 2 weeks
2. if will have the 2nd product kick in around week 3 or 4 when lethargy starts with 1-andro.

 

[delsolrob]

Androvar at those doses would also be highly ineffective.

I'm leaning away from SARM's...if you wanted to run a PH, I'd run 1-Andro (Pick your flavor: supermandro, Super 1-Andro RX, 1-andro TD, etc) and epiandrosterone.

There are getting to be quite a few epiandro products on the market, I'd recommend you check out Alpha Stano, it's epiandrosterone complexed with cyclodextrins to significantly improve oral bioabailability. I got mine at TGB Supplements...I think they have the best price on it.

for the 1-andro, most people who run it usually do the following doses

oral: 400-500mg/day
transdermal (lotion): 200-300mg/day​

epiandrosterone doses vary widely, depending on the enhancers added for bioavailability...without enhancers, some guys would have to run 1000-1200mg a day. There are transdermal options available from a couple different companies (that I'm aware of): Platinum Nutraceuticals and Alpha Gainz...these will be more efficient, but you'd nearly have to bathe in it to get an effective dose. It's best to stack the transdermal with an oral version.

 

[mixedup]

He wants to get that drive back he's missing from the gym^
He's 30 and has been lifting since 2010, Who cares if he wants to hop

on the anabolic band wagon now. He's 30 and has probably gotten close to natty limit (just needs to cut the fat) which I feel like epiandro would do great in muscle sparing as he knocks off a few BF% in an 8 week run

He pusing like 30% bf he's 6 foot if he cut down to 10% his weight and height wouldn't put him close to genetic limit most likely. If he wants to jump he can jumpI am not one to judge but just be honest with yourself. I mean if you've been powerlfting for two years at your weight I hope your bench is like 450lbs and your DL is around 600 at least..

 

[All Creation]

This is a lot of great info and has definitely helped me in my decision.

I have Letrone and Viron on the way and will try them individually with bloodwork done after each, simply because I'm curious. I tried Follidrone in the past and was unfortunately a non-responder to epi. I'm really not anxious to jump on the anabolic bandwagon and do prefer to remain natty, but I am also doing my research if I do change my mind in the near future.

And mixedup, I wish I had numbers like that! Is that normal for natty with 5 years of training overall? Because there are no natty lifters who put up those numbers in my gym. :/ Best I've put up is a 335 bench and 495 deadlift.

Also, not sure if it was accurate, but I used a maximum muscular potential calculator with my measurements and it quoted a maximum muscular bodyweight at 10% bf of 222 pounds. I take that with a grain of salt though and definitely recognize I am still capable of natty gains, though minor, and definitely have fat to lose, which I mentioned in my first post.

 

[mixedup]

When I was in a natty spell fighting getting tested at 145lbs I could bench 305 rep sets at 255 DL around 355

So natty I could bench close to 2x my weight and DL over 2x

 

[All Creation]

That's good stuff, dude. I'm mirin!

145 is super light though, you must be a shorter guy? Bench has always been my weakest lift with my long freakin arms, hate it, haha. I have a lot of strength to gain still, I believe.

 

[mixedup]

That's good stuff, dude. I'm mirin!

145 is super light though, you must be a shorter guy? Bench has always been my weakest lift with my long freakin arms, hate it, haha. I have a lot of strength to gain still, I believe.

5ft 1in

 

[All Creation]

Small but mighty!

So I have been looking into PCT protocols and it seems that Nolva is recommended after pretty much any cycle.

Would Rebirth be a suitable replacement for Nolva for a 1-andro/epiandro cycle since neither technically aromatize? Or is a RC really needed regardless of cycle strength or duration?

And if I have Rebirth is Post Cycle 3x really needed?

And would simply running Nolva by itself without a cycle preceding it have a positive effect in increasing test production and lowering E?

 

[IronAddiction]

Tri-dermal from primeval labs for the win, 4-andro +1-andro +epi andro all in one transdermal. Go for it and check out goodvibes log on here. You will be impressed for a DHEA based transdermal. TD's are the way to go for DHEA compounds! Hit me up if you have any questions All Creation

 

[All Creation]

Just need a few more answers to questions in my last post, thanks, guys!

 

[IronAddiction]

Don't run a serm by it self unless you for sure have issues of it being low test/ high estro. Test is a little low but your E is a bit high. Tamoxifen Citrate is an antineoplastic pharmaceutical drug, that can also raise estrogen, so running a serm, also have an AI on hand to run while running the serm. The physiological response to your body not having enough estrogen is to produce more test to be aromatized into E.

That being said you can get by with rebirth as some of the logs have shown on here. But better to have a serm on hand just in case you don't respond well to an otc alone. If you skimp on anything don't let it be PCT, general rule of thumb, better to have a more robust pct than cycle especially being new to some of the compounds out now.

Try to get the diet in check first for a while honestly, you admitted it yourself that you need to dial in your diet. Why not do that first then add what you want to add after you get some results? It is just what I would do. Don't use help until you need it. Hard work is never replaced my friend