HGH or AAS or both... Need input.
- 04-14-2005, 09:10 AM
HGH or AAS or both... Need input.
It's been on my mind for awhile now... Hmmmm HGH... oh HGH.. how I want some HGH.
Anyway here's the deal. I'm cutting and will continue to cut until there is nothing left to cut. Goal would be to get down to 10% and have a tummy tuck. Until then, I originaly wanted to run fairly clean... Just pwo slin, some eca, and maybe some clen (still haven't decided on that yet). But it turns out I'm one impatient son of a beotch.
All along though, I have had thoughts of running HGH for 6 months or so at 6IU ED (2iu in the morning, 4IU before Bed).
Diet, I was planning on just keeping it normal... Sub Maintenance. (I'm cutting afterall). I'm just looking for something to help maintain my lbm, and assist (hopefully in a big way) dropping BF%.
Now the Upside is, HGH won't shut me down... plus it has alsorts of kewl benefits... Like rejuvinating your skin etc.. strengthening joints... burning fat of course, and helping to maintain lbm....etc. (but mostly I'm concerned with burning fat, and maintaining LBM)
On the down side its extremely expensive in comparison to an AAS cycle.
So I ask you... should I say the hell with HGH, and just run a kick ass cycle of test and tren to cut the BF? Or should I go with HGH? Money isn't to much of a concern. OR do you think I should not do either? (bah on you who think that. :P )
My Main focus is to Loose BF%, Followed closely by my wish to maintain and even possible grow muscle Mass. With that in mind what would you do? What sort of %/%/% diet would you recommend, and do you think a maintenance level of calories would be good, or should I eat less or more? And anything advice you might have is also appreciated.
A. a 6 month cycle of
...HGH at 6iu ED
B. a 3 month cycle of
...1-12 Test Enan 500-750mg EW
...1-10 Tren Enan 400mg EW
...1-12 Masteron Enan 400mg EW
(HCG a must on this one or is it with HGH?)
Or, I suppose I could start HGH now, and in a few months run the cycle right along with it.. and if I do that Is maintenance calories still alright? What would you do in that case? Is this nuts?
Looking for input on everyone here.... On everything.. daily Hgh dosages (is 6 to much or okay)... Should I take weekends off? or run for 6 straight months... Is adding in EQ to boost metabolism overkill with tren or okay? whatever. What kind of results can I expect after 6 months of hgh given a maintenance diet... what kind of results can I expect from that AAS cycle, given maintenance diet?throw it at me.
Lots of questions and lots to think about there, I put most of the questions in bold. Appreciate serious responses, (perhaps the occasional joke.. but thats it )
- 04-14-2005, 09:17 AM
well first off i think 6iu ed is WAY too high ... you should start at 2iu to let your body acclimate and then honestly i wouldn't go about 4iu ... is it a good idea? sure, i think so, but GH takes a while to notice anything so i'd run it before, with, and your aas cycle for 6-8 months
i also think you'll be fine running it 5 on 2 off AND actually i just saw a study that says running it EOD is best (i'll try to find that)
i wouldn't add the eq .. it just makes you too hungry and with the test tren and masteron you've got enough drugs in there (you've got the king, a 19-nor, and a dht derivative .. all your bases are covered)
finally i WOULD run HCG with your proposed cycle .. although not because of the GH, just because its a good idea, especially with the shutdown job a 19-nor will do to your HPTA, it will make recovery easier
- 04-14-2005, 09:19 AM
BAM ... here it is
Originally posted by junk at EF. I think some of you here may be interested in reading it.
EOD GH injections are better!..... study says
A very thorough well controlled 4 year study published on
The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 87, No.8 3573-3577
clearly shows every other day (EOD) hGH injections to be much more beneficial in the long run to everyday injections. Everyday injections seems to drastically lower your body's sensitivity to it's own GH secretion. The study included children with idiopathic short stature, but can be ever casting on us, normal non-deficient hGH individuals who may use hGH periodically for bodybuilding, sports and health purposes.
The 38 children were divided into 2 groups:
Group I received daily hGH injections.
Group II received alternate day hGH injections.
It is important to note that the total weekly dosage of hGH was the same for both groups.
Both groups received the hGH therapy contiguously for 2 years.
Their natural growth was followed for an additional 2 years after hGH therapy ended. They were all measured at 3-month intervals during the 4 years period (2 years with hGH therapy and 2 years after). Their Serum GH was measured by double antibody RIA kit.
During hGH therapy, both groups accelerated their growth substantially.
Group I receiving the daily hGH injections first & second year velocity was 3.4 and 2.3 SD Group II receiving the alternate hGH inj. had 3.0 and 2.0 SD for first and second year respectively.
Over the initial 6 months after withdrawal of therapy, growth velocity decelerated to a low nadir -3.9 SD score for the daily therapy group, whereas it decelerated in the alternate day group to only -0.2 SD score.
During the 2 years off therapy, the later group (taking EOD injections)
maintained growth rates of -0.2 to -1.2 SD score, which is similar to their SD score prior to the hGH treatment. The daily group also recovered but very slowly, on the fourth semiannual evaluation off therapy. The cumulative 4-year growth velocity (2yrs on and 2 yrs off therapy) of the alternate day group was greater than that of the daily therapy group (mean, 0.9 vs. 0.3 SD score).
At the end of the 4-yr therapy period, the adult height prediction of the alternate day group was greater than that of the daily group by a mea of 6.5cm (that's over 2.5" in height, quite a lot of difference)
In even simpler English, to translate what it may mean to us is that using hGH everyday will only negligibly give better short-term results. Yet using alternate day hGH will give radically better long-term results and much better recovery. As the body may get back to homeostasis much faster.
Remember the two groups got the same weekly total hGH dosage,
so your every other day hGH injections would be twice as if you used
it every day.
The researchers said, the dose was of less impotency than the schedule of the injections. Daily hGH therapy for 3 years caused subnormal growth persisting for 1.5 years (very bad)
It may be that the problem is not enough hGH or IGF-1 secretion but rather
the body's decreased sensitivity to it. The interesting part is that the serum GH levels and serum IGF-I and IGF-binding protein remained unaffected or relatively mutely affected. Even your body's endogenous pulsatile secretion of GH resumes within just days even after long-term hGH therapy.
The researchers hypothesis is that the tolerance may be in the "GH signal transduction in selective target organs in response to the disappearance of the unique pulsatile pattern of serum GH during GH therapy". You see, hGH taken via sc injections do not imitate the your body's own GH secretion.
"Indeed, daily sc administration of GH results in an unphysiological serum GH profile, with peak levels at 4 h and a slow decline over the course of the following 12–24 h. This pattern can be regarded as continuous administration, rather than the physiological GH pulses, with a frequency of about eight per day."
"Assuming that the withdrawal syndrome is related to tolerance that might have developed toward hGH or IGF-I, we tried to prevent it by alternate day treatment. Moreover, hGH doses used in therapy often stimulate IGF-I to supraphysiological serum levels, suggesting that target tissues IGF-I may also be higher than normal. The mechanism seems, therefore, to rest with hGH and IGF-I action at their target tissues. We now show that alternate day therapy
with hGH in children with an intact GH-IGF-I axis prevents the withdrawal syndrome"
Researchers mark the analogy to another endocrine tolerance and withdrawal syndrome:
"alternate day therapy with glucocoricoids prevents tolerance to that hormone to a substantial degree, "Interestingly, glucocoricoids withdrawal syndrome can also occur while the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis is intact (8), indicating that tolerance to glucocoricoids has developed
at the target organ level (9). "
An example of a good safe protocol to follow in my opinion could be
hGH taken for 4 months (16 weeks) or more at 8IU every other day,
split to 4IU three hours after waking up (say 11:00am)
and another 4IU taken 4 hours later (say 3:00pm).
This approach is quite conservative and may be optimal.
Obviously, you may extend past 4months, and take more IUs per day.
This approach goes with 8IU EOD, so it is equivalent to folks that would
otherwise go with 4IU ED, which is what most do.
There is some controversy as to how many of these IUs the body
can utilize at once
Obviously, there are lot of studies, some better conducted, some less.
Lots of opinions and doctrines in endocrinology, bodybuilding etc..
So you should make your own decision, I guess old individuals on
hGH for life would not mind, as no rebound would affect them. Professional
bodybuilders probably wouldn't mind as well.
I would rather follow a protocol like this. For most part due to the
nasty rebound that I could get after withdrawing from long-term ED hGH treatment.
Nothing worse then look awesome, stop hGH then after several months having:
Low body sensitivity to your own body's GH.
Decline in resting cardiac output
Increase fat mass
Decrease in metabolic rate
Negative nitrogen balance, phosphorus, sodium and potassium.
Again, I said "could" not "would", because this study cannot absolutely manifest
our use of hGH. Moreso, we are not children, we are not idiopathic hGH deficient
and not aGHD. But since the weekly dosages do remain the same as well as the
duration of the hGH usage. Just changing to the EOD protocol from the well
hyped everyday inj protocol is worth in my honest opinion. It seems statistically
a better bet, with more chance to win, than loose as opposed to the ED protocol.
I just tried to summarize the findings of the study, which was by the way,
a pleasure to read as the study is well written and was prepared by
Dr Hochberg, MD, a renowned well respected figure in endocrinology.
You can read the full article with all the graphs and details here:
With references to 23 studies.
04-14-2005, 09:21 AM
as for what you can expect .. well i think you know what to expect with your AAS cycle
the gh, it should definitely lean you out, even with a bit of a sloppy diet
at 6-8 months of 4iu a day you SHOULDN'T see too much growth of organs, jaw, etc.
you should experience the sides of numbness in your limbs
better sleep, better looking skin, mood elevation
04-14-2005, 09:30 AM
Just out of curiosity, have you considered IGF-1? If money is truly no object...
04-14-2005, 09:30 AM
hehe not sure, but I think you answered me so fast you forgot your english skills? (joke. ) You would or wouldn't go to 4iu a day? And are you saying I should run HGH for 6 - 8 months then run the AAS cycle afterwards? Or is running them at the same time Alright? And in either situation what do you think about calorie intake?Originally Posted by glenihan
5 days on, and 2 off sounds good, and if EOD is best, that would save a crap load of money.. definately interested in hearing more about that. What is the benefit of taking of 5 on and 2 off opposed to staying on?Originally Posted by glenihan
Agreed... overkill.Originally Posted by glenihan
Thought so, but I figured HGH, might do wonders for the nut sack.. I know IGF worked magic for me (but I did use hcg as well)... I experienced no drop in sex drive after a whopper of a cycle plus mentally I was on top of the world. HCG definately in.Originally Posted by glenihan
Thanks keep em coming.
04-14-2005, 09:31 AM
Yeep.. ran a 3 week 50mcg ed run on the tail end of my last cycle.. and again through part of pct and beyond. Had remarkable recovery.Originally Posted by kwantam
2mg all together to this point. Definately a wonderful PCT product if there ever was one.
04-14-2005, 09:34 AM
hehe you've been busy posting.. much appreciated. and you answered some of the questions I just asked...Originally Posted by glenihan
Still curious on diet %/%/% while on GH, and calorie level? Sub-maintenance - maintenance. Just opinions.
04-14-2005, 09:37 AM
wow .. after rereading that my english skills are apparently worse than most cabbies here ..
ok what i meant was:
6ius is too high .. start at 2ius for 2 weeks then move up to 4ius
i would run the HGH for 6-8 months .. starting the cutting cycle whenever, but preferably after you got down to around 14-12% BF as you don't really have to worry too much about losing muscle when your BF is high
i WOULD run the AAS sometime during the HGH cycle though
if your goal is to cut i would start a normal cutting diet (since you won't notice the fat burning effects of gh until after at least a month or so) and then adjust accordingly
benefits to 5 on 2 off is just that from everything i've read there are no greater gains made (in terms of muscle growth or fat loss) by injecting ED rather than 5 on 2 off .. you save money and less chance for bad sides
i don't know any more about EOD shots other than that one study i posted (granted it was done on gh deficient kids) but why don't you be our guinea pig
04-14-2005, 09:38 AM
i would go with a normal 40/40/20 diet .. you will probably notice though that once the GH is in effect you can cheat more often and STILL lose fat ... although this is of course assuming you get REAL quality gh ... and well i'm kinda bored right now so why not post as much as possible
04-14-2005, 09:38 AM
Very good read, my only question would be judging by this, if I was going to do 4iu a day... I would now need to do 8iu EOD. Correct. (so much for saving money... lol)Remember the two groups got the same weekly total hGH dosage,
so your every other day hGH injections would be twice as if you used
it every day.
04-14-2005, 09:45 AM
haha yeah, i believe that's true you'd have to do 8 eod ... with the limited studies about eod available and the fact that it was done on gh deficient kids .. i would stick with 5 on 2 off
04-14-2005, 09:53 AM
I'm not opposed to being a Lab Rat... but yea I think 5 on 2 off is a safe option.Originally Posted by glenihan
What about Insulin, just keep taking it as normal 10iu Humalog pwo only? Would I have to worry more about Going hypo like you would with IGF, or is that not nearly as much of a concern. (granted the slin meal is always required).
04-14-2005, 10:00 AM
well anecdotal evidence suggests that going hypo MAY be more of a concern, although i don't think there is any true empirical data done in a study to back that up
i would continue to use the slin since you are experienced with it .. just be sure to have glucose tabs/gatorade/whatever handy at all times PWO .. and be sure to not go to sleep for AT LEAST 4-5 hours after your slin poke .. this is true even though you are using humalog and not humilin R, just because the hypo effects may be magnified by the gh
04-14-2005, 10:04 AM
Okay good to know.. ANd yes I always have glucose tabs on hand... Never had to use them yet... but always, always be ready.Originally Posted by glenihan
04-14-2005, 10:17 AM
Here's another question.. what about adding t3? would you and where.. I'm assuming if I do during the AAS portion would be recommended... but would you use it at a lower dose else where.. or am I now starting to go to far?
04-14-2005, 10:32 AM
I would suggest dropping the t-3 as t-3 when used with HGH negates the nitrogen retention (anabolic) effect of HGH.
Also t-3 increase IGF-1 binding proteins so it will offset the increase in IGF-1 from HGH by increasing the amount og IGF-BP in the body.
No increase in IGF and no increase in nitrogen retention equals a very expensive fat burner. HGH does have other benefits as unrelated to muscle that you should still reap the benefits of but considering the price of HGH I suggest not using t3
04-14-2005, 10:32 AM
then why not run it 3 weeks on/off w/ your aas cycle, it is better than hgh and you don't have to wait 6-8 months to see resultsOriginally Posted by Poobah
04-14-2005, 10:33 AM
I would'nt use insulin..to many potential problems. I would stick with GH, Test, Tren ,'var, Mast, clen and trimax or T-3. I don't know a ton about GH other then what Glen said. But if it were me I would run the GH for 8 months and do a a cutting cycle or two during your GH run with the above compounds.
04-14-2005, 10:33 AM
you'll see results WAY before 6-8 months just like you'll see results with AAS way before 12 or 16 weeksOriginally Posted by s.norman
04-14-2005, 10:44 AM
Does it really work that much better though? The cost would actually be very similar. Is 3 weeks on and 3 weeks of off igf for 6 months, practical? would you recover in 3 weeks after prolonged cycling?Originally Posted by s.norman
04-14-2005, 10:48 AM
I'm not new to insulin at this point.. I've blown through 2 bottles so far and working on my third... I find it hard to put it down, It does wonders, when it comes both to bulking, and keeping and even potentially gaining muscle while cutting. and especially when on cycle.Originally Posted by LCSULLA
You just gota be careful, and not **** around with it. I don't recommend anyone do Insulin, unless they compeletely understand how dangerous it can be. It's not to be toyed with by any means.
04-14-2005, 10:53 AM
Cool. I just didn't want to hear you went into a coma bacause of slin.Originally Posted by Poobah
04-14-2005, 05:12 PM
I wouldn't touch HGH unless you're competing and need every extra edge. It's just not worth it.
04-14-2005, 05:50 PM
If money wasn't an issue? what would you think. (not that I'm rich.. cause I ain't).Originally Posted by exnihilo
I'm just really interested in the fat burning properties / lbm maintaining aspect of things. I have a long haul in front of me. I want to get this done and over with.. (So I can bulk for real... )
But I'm interested in opinions.. barring price as a factor is it still not worth it? why?
Last edited by Poobah; 04-14-2005 at 06:11 PM.
04-14-2005, 06:39 PM
Only one way to find outOriginally Posted by Poobah
Hell if I could afford it I would run it for sure...but I can't so I won't...
04-14-2005, 07:03 PM
HGH really seems to be a synergistic drug more than a stand alone drug. It does have some positives such as improved sleep, and greater ease of getting lean, as well as improved skin and hair texture. Much like insulin however it doesn't deliver much used on its own, and it's ridiculously expensive. IMO, unless you are trying to get freaky huge and freaky lean at the same time it's really not worth the price since you can do the same thing with gear and and a proper diet.Originally Posted by Poobah
04-14-2005, 07:26 PM
Fair enough... definately something to consider... BUt I'm impatient and it's hard. I can small smoke eminating from my pocket already. :?Originally Posted by exnihilo
04-15-2005, 09:30 AM
Well I was leaning toward Jino over Ansomone.. But things have definately changed at this point.
Well right now, It looks like the supplier of Jino does not offer any sort of credit on the hgh should customs seize it. (he does for all other products he sells. ) Makes me wonder why? The source is legit, but if he doesn't offer the 50% credit on the hgh.. is it because of its high seisure rate? I can't afford to loose a few thousand US dollars.
Ansomone has just earned mucho bonus points.. That supplier does offer 50% credit in case of siesure.. on top of that they ship express globaly with a tracking number so they don't require a customs letter. HUGE Advantage... and could save me a small fortune incase the worst should happen. And on top of that Ansomone is a little bit cheaper. (On top of that, they are my regular supplier, and I have recieved mucho packages with 100% success).
Hard to choose Jino now...
04-15-2005, 09:37 AM
hmm .. that does make a big difference .. in that case i would probably stick with the ansomone
04-15-2005, 02:43 PM
Getting closer to figuring this all out... But there is another snag...
Latest thing is the supplier will only ship 40 bottles out per package... so shipping wise it's way cheaper for me to get 600iu, in 40x15iu bottles. which means I would then have to do 5iu each day, as once reconsitituted you really should have it all injected in 72 hours or better. So It's looking like 5 on 2 off of 5iu ED.
I'll probably get the 600IU, now.. and in 5 months, get some more.. hehe maybe 1200iu all together. :P
5iu a day bad? it will cost me the same as 4iu a day, with all the shipping that would be involved.
04-15-2005, 02:55 PM
Maybe do 4on/3off at 5iu a day?Originally Posted by Poobah
04-15-2005, 02:56 PM
lol.. actually that's reminds me..
since I'll be cracking 15iu bottles.. and I need to inject it all in 72 hours..
I'll have to do 3 on 1 off...
04-15-2005, 03:22 PM
you really should start at 2iu and ramp up .. the sides won't be fun if you start at 5
04-15-2005, 03:45 PM
I would do 7.5iu EOD.Originally Posted by Poobah
04-15-2005, 03:56 PM
Damn it.. that's not a bad Idea... Why did you have to say that.. lolOriginally Posted by exnihilo
I could also go 6 on and 2 or 3 off....
2iu eod is out of the question though unless I want to spend more.... How uncomfortable can the sides be at 5IU ED?
04-15-2005, 04:10 PM
Some people encounter joint pain and abdominal swelling (this is from water retention, it dissapears quickly on cessation of GH use).Originally Posted by Poobah
04-15-2005, 04:13 PM
the bad side would be a carpal tunnel syndrome like feeling .. although if you go to the drug store and buy CTS braces and wear them on your wrists at night it will literally open up the carpal tunnel and do a lot to alleviate the pain
04-15-2005, 08:36 PM
EDIT (lol... this is poobah on my girlfriends computer... apparently she is spying on me. :P)
2nd Edit... she wants me to delete the first edit... actually she's pretty kewl and supportive.. so anyway on with the question?
What you all think of exnihilo suggestion...
It's starting to sound good.. considering the options.
04-16-2005, 03:31 PM
Shameless bump for peoples thoughts on Taking 7.5iu EOD... for 8 months or so..
3.75 in the morning.. and 3.75 in the evening... ?
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