mdht reduces sex hormone binding globulin???

[s.norman]

does mdht reduce sex hormone binding globulin the same way that proviron does?

 

[RRAdam]

well, yes

 

[ersatz]

I thought Proviron had a high affinity for SHBG thus it preferentially binds instead of toehr androgens. Hence it's use on cycle or even PCT to boost free T. DHT has a lower affinity than T for SHBG so I don't know if mdht is similar. Anabolics in general reduce SHBG production in the liver. Proviron's mainly increases free T levels by preferential binding moreso than inhibition of shbg production.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

The free test aromatizes too quickly for it to have any benefit. The thought that Proviron will actually have any benefit by increasing free test is a myth.

 

[ersatz]

The free test aromatizes too quickly for it to have any benefit. The thought that Proviron will actually have any benefit by increasing free test is a myth.

Does it actually aromatize or is it metabolized too quickly? I thought it was the latter but if it's due to aromatization couldn't one use 5AR and AI inhibitors?

 

[wesley90]

albumin bound test does not aromitise no?

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Does it actually aromatize or is it metabolized too quickly? I thought it was the latter but if it's due to aromatization couldn't one use 5AR and AI inhibitors?

Yes metabolized, not aromatize. My error.

 

[wesley90]

ersatz...does albumin bound test aromatize?

 

[MarcusG]

The free test aromatizes too quickly for it to have any benefit. The thought that Proviron will actually have any benefit by increasing free test is a myth.

Bobo, are there any benefit to supplements that claim to increase free testosterone by manipulating binding compounds like SHBG?

IMO, the body tries to maintain an even keel (and adjusts to compensate) so to speak so theres little/no benefit.

 

[200wannabe]

Bobo, are there any benefit to supplements that claim to increase free testosterone by manipulating binding compounds like SHBG?

IMO, the body tries to maintain an even keel (and adjusts to compensate) so to speak so theres little/no benefit.

Bump for info on this. Avena Sativa is supposed to reduce SHBG, and obviously there are new products coming out (activate etc) that purport to do this, is it worthwhile, or will the increased free test simply be metabolized to rapidly to realise any benifits?

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Bobo, are there any benefit to supplements that claim to increase free testosterone by manipulating binding compounds like SHBG?

IMO, no.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Bump for info on this. Avena Sativa is supposed to reduce SHBG, and obviously there are new products coming out (activate etc) that purport to do this, is it worthwhile, or will the increased free test simply be metabolized to rapidly to realise any benifits?

From the research I have seen, any increase in free test will metabolize too quickly to see any benefit at all. I posted on this subject a while back.


The effect of mesterolone administration to normal men on the pituitary-testicular function.

Aakvaag A, Stromme SB.


"The reduction in total plasma testosterone and the unchanged free testosterone is probably due to reduced testosterone binding to SHBG."

So even though mesterolone competes with test for SHBG binding, the diplaced test is cleared from the system faster, resulting in no net change of free test, since as the authors point out:

"the MCR [metabolic clearance rate] is inversely related to the degree of protein binding."

 

[wesley90]

isnt injectable test just free test?

 

[Dwight Schrute]

In terms of being bioavailble yes, but the scenario is completely different as normal HTPA functions shut down and the levels present are far higher the normal physiological levels of free test. Free test simply refers to bioavailable test. Injectables also have various esters attached for longer half-lives and increased circultation. Homeostasis isn't achieved using injectable forms. Normal physiological levels will always attempt to achieve homeostasis since normal HTPA functions are still present.

 

[wesley90]

Well, can albumin bound test aromatize? It is bioavailiable too...

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Umm....albumin bound testosterone and SHBG bound testosterone does not exert any effects on surrounding tissues.

 

[ersatz]

Well, can albumin bound test aromatize? It is bioavailiable too...

Albumin bound T cannot directly aromatize, at least from the studies I've seen. T binds weakly to albumin so it is likely that they unbind and that T can bind to the AR. Albumin bound T is protected from metabolism and aromatization.

I agree with Bobo that reducing SHBG to increase free T levels will probably result in little to any benefit due to the quick metabolization of the free T. Perhaps if one were to also increase albumin levels then oine might see benefit from such products. Ultimately the beta tests will show if there's really any benefit to reducing shbg levels, studies and experiences with Proviron have proved otherwise.

Even if ActivaTe doesn't pan out for this use it may still be of use on cycle.

 

[wesley90]

Umm....albumin bound testosterone and SHBG bound testosterone does not exert any effects on surrounding tissues.

The major binding protein, Sex Hormone Binding Protein (SHBG) is responsible for carrying between 60 – 70% of the body’s testosterone through the bloodstream. The testosterone that is bound to SHBG is bound so tightly that it is considered biologically inactive. Virtually all the remaining testosterone is bound loosely to a number of other binding proteins, the main one being albumin. Only about 2% of the body’s testosterone circulates free, or unbound. However, as mentioned, the testosterone that is albumin bound is only attached very loosely to this transport protein and so is able to interact with the androgen receptor as if it were free. Hence it, like free testosterone, is considered to be biologically active. The free and albumin bound testosterone together are called the bioactive or bioavailable fraction.

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/content/page-214.html

Testosterone is present in the circulation both in protein bound (96%) and in non-protein bound ('free' or unbound) formats. In males, about 44% is bound to Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), 50% to albumin and 2-3% 'free' (1).

Until recently it was believed that only the 'free' fraction of testosterone could be taken up by tissues and the protein-bound testosterone complex was inactive. It has now been demonstrated that the albumin bound fraction of testosterone readily dissociates and is absorbed up by the tissues along with the 'free' fraction. Together, these two fractions are referred to as the bioavailable testosterone (Bio-T) fraction.

http://www.mdsdx.com/MDS_Diagnostic_Services/Patients/TestInfo/Special/Malemenopause.asp

 

[wesley90]

ersatz, that is what I am proposing...why not create a albumin bound testosterone for injection...that way there is no risk for metabolism and aromitization...

 

[ersatz]

ersatz, that is what I am proposing...why not create a albumin bound testosterone for injection...that way there is no risk for metabolism and aromitization...

As Bobo alluded to earlier, various forms of injectible T are already bound to esters that help prevent metabolization. Albumin bounding would be redundant. To increase the bioavailability of endogenous T levels reducing SHBG bound T with a corresponding increase in Albumin bound T may be of some benefit. The key is to determine at what rate albumin bound T disassociates and what may be the rate limiting factors.

 

[wesley90]

Albumin bound test would not aromatise, which would take away a lot of the estrogenic related sides...bah whatever, I have no education in this subject so maybe im just retarded lol...

 

[Dwight Schrute]

The research suggesting its bioavailable is far from being fact. The studies were done on women in conjunction with spironolactone in an attempt to raise the leves far above what would normally be present.

"We reasoned that the addition of graded amounts of spironolactone and its metabolites to plasma would provide a means to increase the albumin-bound T concentration appreciably"


The study also says its a farily controversial subject so for to you say it is absolutely is bioavailable is not accurate.

It would most certainly not exert any anabolci effect which is what I was getting to when I said it doesn't exert its efects on surrounding tissues (mainly ones responsible for anabolic action)

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Albumin bound test would not aromatise, which would take away a lot of the estrogenic related sides...bah whatever, I have no education in this subject so maybe im just retarded lol...

Why would you want to eliminate the estrogenic effects? That would decrease GH, IGF-1 and mRNA translocation.

 

[wesley90]

oh, ok, I dunno, im just doing some brain stroming man

 

[Dwight Schrute]

No problem. You could argue semantics forever on these issues. You could techincally say its bioavailable to the brain, liver, salivary glands and lymph nodes but the anabolic effects would be nil. The differences between bound and unbound testosterone is pretty significant (even though albumin is bound weakly).

Brain storm all you want. The board encourages that

 

[wesley90]

You sayin im Stupid? listen monkey boy, you may got the brains and ****, but ill still kick yo ASS...lol sike.

Anyways, what field do you suggest so that I can learn all of this? I am gonna hit up the library and try to get a basic overview of all this, I was thinking physiology...
Thanks.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Endocrinology.

Monkey Boy.


:saw:

 

[ersatz]

In regards to bioavailable T level calculation including Albumin bound T it is somewhat misleading. A small percentage of Albumin bound T disassociates becoming free T and thus bioavailable. To include the total amount of Albumin bound T as bioavailable T is certainly misleading. T bound to either SHBG or albumin is regarded as inactive. It has to disassociate thus becoming free T to illict and real analbolic effect, ie bind to AR.

Care to share what you're brainstorming about?

 

[Alpha Dog]

In terms of being bioavailble yes, but the scenario is completely different as normal HTPA functions shut down and the levels present are far higher the normal physiological levels of free test. Free test simply refers to bioavailable test. Injectables also have various esters attached for longer half-lives and increased circultation. Homeostasis isn't achieved using injectable forms. Normal physiological levels will always attempt to achieve homeostasis since normal HTPA functions are still present.

Interesting discussion. What if you could block the effect of the increased free T at the hypothalamus but not in peripheral tissue (or the rest of the body for that matter). Reason I ask is that some are claiming to have discovered such compounds (ADT for example).

 

[Dwight Schrute]

What you do mean? As in block (lack of a better term) suppression from increased testosterone like HCG?

 

[Alpha Dog]

What you do mean? As in block (lack of a better term) suppression from increased testosterone like HCG?

I mean compete at the hypothalamus, blocking the negative feedback effect of bioavailable T. Unlike HCG, the the hypothalamous would continue to tell the pituitary to produce LH and FSH. I recently questioned this claim when a product claimed to do just that.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26292

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I would question that all day long.

There is not just one feedback loop that triggers the release of GnRH. There are several.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

That is a VERY bold claim. I would suspect this would be used widely in areas of HRT if it showed promise. THe only thing that would make me belive a claim like that is actual bloodwork. THe majortiy of research is done on sheep and rats which have shown to have very different effects than the human endocrine system. They perform rat assays to determine A/A ratios but other than that the effects seen in rats and humans is very different.

But you never know....