PHs vs STEROIDS - Shutdown, Sides, etc etc

[bennoes]

My main issue with a 12 week Test cycle vs a typical 6 week ph cycle is the degree of shutdown, and the need to use HCG. I assume that shutdown would be worse with injectable steroids because cycles are much longer, and will this longer duration of cycle lead to a more severe shutdown and harder recovery? Is this true? Also I know injectables beat ph's by far in regards to liver damage and toxicity but are other side effects relatively the same? Also i know HCG isnt needed on ph cycles cos of the short duration but for injectable steroid cycles HCG is recommended isnt it? Also what is more dangerous in causing fertility issues? That would be a big factor for what ill choose in the future, i want kids, and i have no problem trying to source some real gear, its just the degree of shutdown compared to a short ph cycle scares me. What are your thoughts guys?

 

[AlexPowell]

I've never seen any indication or medical study that shows 8 months is any worse than 8 weeks
Excluding sperm count

If you don't want to take the risk, don't take steroids
Or stick to less than 8 weeks, which is pretty much pissing in the wind

 

[heavylifter33]

I've never seen any indication or medical study that shows 8 months is any worse than 8 weeks
Excluding sperm count

If you don't want to take the risk, don't take steroids
Or stick to less than 8 weeks, which is pretty much pissing in the wind

Why are you still posting here? Your posts are literally the worst thing i've seen since Hurricane Katrina.

 

[TeamTGB]

Why are you still posting here? Your posts are literally the worst thing i've seen since Hurricane Katrina.

Come on Rhadam are you serious check his rep power, Jk Jk lol

 

[AlexPowell]

Why are you still posting here? Your posts are literally the worst thing i've seen since Hurricane Katrina.

Then show otherwise

 

[goodvibes]

I've never seen any indication or medical study that shows 8 months is any worse than 8 weeks
Excluding sperm count

If you don't want to take the risk, don't take steroids
Or stick to less than 8 weeks, which is pretty much pissing in the wind

So you believe running an 8 week cycle has the same effect on hpta recovery to an 8 month cycle?!

 

[AlexPowell]

So you believe running an 8 week cycle has the same effect on hpta recovery to an 8 month cycle?!

Apart from sperm count, that is what every medical study has shown yes
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22503022

 

[liftandeat]

In for the drama

 

[ArmstrongBrah]

In to see what other dumb bro science AlexPowell can conjure up.

 

[heavylifter33]

Apart from sperm count, that is what every medical study has shown yes
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22503022

LMAO do you have any clue what you just posted? I'd ask if you even read the abstract but you obviously are too stupid to even comprehend what they're talking about. Bro (and by bro i mean never my bro), you continue to provide epic laughter. I actually want you to keep posting because you're too dense to understand how stupid you actually are.

Try really hard and scratch your two remaining brain cells together and figure out what Flutamide is.

 

[AlexPowell]

LMAO do you have any clue what you just posted? I'd ask if you even read the abstract but you obviously are too stupid to even comprehend what they're talking about. Bro (and by bro i mean never my bro), you continue to provide epic laughter. I actually want you to keep posting because you're too dense to understand how stupid you actually are.

Try really hard and scratch your two remaining brain cells together and figure out what Flutamide is.

It causes shutdown like androgens do, dingus
Go ahead and look at the testosterone studies as well

Then go ahead and use the search function to see how many people have reduced endocrine function from 4 weeks of epistane

 

[heavylifter33]

lmao at you comparing an anti androgen to testosterone.

 

[AlexPowell]

Then just look at the studies done on testosterone, shutdown is shutdown and it acts on the same mechanism. Testosterone is suppressed all the same

 

[CATdiesel76]

First of all, injectable does not mean non liver toxic. The compound dictates liver toxicity.

Second, 6 week cycles IMO are a waste. Sure you can make progress etc. but the only reason people do them is because they didn't have access to injectables or didn't want to pin due to fear/legality.

You can take an oral for 6 weeks and blow up but even with the best pct in the world they will be much harder to keep. A 20 week cycle of test will yield more gains, be more enjoyable, probably healthier, and you will keep your gains longer. I have done enough
short and long cycles to know from experience.

As far as shutdown, I noticed no difference in recovery between 6 week oh cycles and up to 14 week test cycles. Now a 1.5 year blast and cruise was a completely different story. Took a few months to feel right after that but it was worth it

 

[Rodja]

Then show otherwise

You made the claim; it's your responsibility to support your claim. You CANNOT make a blanket statement regarding HPTA suppression as it completely disregards dose, duration, compound, etc. Shutdown, and using this term shows a lack of comprehension of the HPTA, is not a light switch. This is why is should be called suppression because it varies depending on what is used, how much, and how long.

 

[Kickstart7]

In..

 

[AlexPowell]

You made the claim; it's your responsibility to support your claim. You CANNOT make a blanket statement regarding HPTA suppression as it completely disregards dose, duration, compound, etc. Shutdown, and using this term shows a lack of comprehension of the HPTA, is not a light switch. This is why is should be called suppression because it varies depending on what is used, how much, and how long.

No studies that show staying on for 8 months is any worse than 8 weeks
Nothing to support the hypothesis that staying on for 8 months is worse than 8 weeks

 

[matt21irby21]

You made the claim; it's your responsibility to support your claim. You CANNOT make a blanket statement regarding HPTA suppression as it completely disregards dose, duration, compound, etc. Shutdown, and using this term shows a lack of comprehension of the HPTA, is not a light switch. This is why is should be called suppression because it varies depending on what is used, how much, and how long.

Right on

 

[ArmstrongBrah]

No studies that show staying on for 8 months is any worse than 8 weeks Nothing to support the hypothesis that staying on for 8 months is worse than 8 weeks

Do you even proofread the stuff you post?

 

[dbrock504]

I would really like to see a legit answer to the OP. I have the exact same questions, concerns, and thoughts.

 

[AlexPowell]

I would really like to see a legit answer to the OP. I have the exact same questions, concerns, and thoughts.

Oh course the duration matters
Long estered steroids are only truly effective in the long term

If you value your HPTA then just avoid steroids or keep it less than 8 weeks

 

[dbrock504]

Oh course the duration matters Long estered steroids are only truly effective in the long term If you value your HPTA then just avoid steroids or keep it less than 8 weeks

That wasn't the only op question. Gtfo off the thread

 

[AlexPowell]

"I assume that shutdown would be worse with injectable steroids because cycles are much longer, and will this longer duration of cycle lead to a more severe shutdown and harder recovery? Is this true?"

 

[yates84]

Subbed. Need some drama in my life!

 

[dbrock504]

"I assume that shutdown would be worse with injectable steroids because cycles are much longer, and will this longer duration of cycle lead to a more severe shutdown and harder recovery? Is this true?"

He asked many questions. Although the main underlying issue that he wanted answered was the shutdown, I think the shutdown got covered.

I am interested to see what people say about pinning in respect to the over all effects, sides, shutdown, and other possibilities VERSUS pro hormones. Just as the op.

He also mentioned fertility concerns. I'm getting married in 2 months and want to start a family within a couple of years. This is a HUGE concern for me too and why I have only run 2 cycles of very mild pro hormones.

 

[bennoes]

Yeah thats my bad for asking like four or five questions, i know for next time keep it short and precise. What ive gathered so far is that the degree of shutdown is similar compared to a 6 week ph and a 12 week test cycle, so pinning would be the better choice for overall muscle gain and shutdown factor over ph's.

 

[jbryand101b]

I'll take a dabble at this later.

Subbed.

 

[dbrock504]

Yeah thats my bad for asking like four or five questions, i know for next time keep it short and precise. What ive gathered so far is that the degree of shutdown is similar compared to a 6 week ph and a 12 week test cycle, so pinning would be the better choice for overall muscle gain and shutdown factor over ph's.

It would depend on the ph you're referring to, but I would imagine that isn't the case. Plus, you're just talking about test. 10/10 times you're going to stack the test with a compound of your choosing (deca, tren, dbol, sust, mast, etc). So I believe that should be considered as well.

 

[bennoes]

It would depend on the ph you're referring to, but I would imagine that isn't the case. Plus, you're just talking about test. 10/10 times you're going to stack the test with a compound of your choosing (deca, tren, dbol, sust, mast, etc). So I believe that should be considered as well.

Oh yes thats my fault, just realised how wrong what i said was, like trenavar is know to cause serious shutdown so that would obviously be harder to recover from compared to a 6 week halo cycle. I think my main concern is shutdown with ph's compared to pinning, i think ive gotten the answer that obviously it is dependant on the compound, dosages, the length of the cycle and the degree of shutdown. the more shutdown and the longer duration you are shutdown, the harder and longer the recovery :thumbsup:

 

[matt21irby21]

I've run AAS test and tren for almost twenty weeks per cycle and didn't feel any shut down both times I did the cycles. Which were only four weeks apart from each other. I've ran a few different PH cycles with test E on all of them. I've ran five total cycles in the past 18 months. And I found out my fiancé is pregnant bout two months ago. So either my body loves anabolics, or the milk man managed to sneak one in while I was away.

 

[dbrock504]

Oh yes thats my fault, just realised how wrong what i said was, like trenavar is know to cause serious shutdown so that would obviously be harder to recover from compared to a 6 week halo cycle. I think my main concern is shutdown with ph's compared to pinning, i think ive gotten the answer that obviously it is dependant on the compound, dosages, the length of the cycle and the degree of shutdown. the more shutdown and the longer duration you are shutdown, the harder and longer the recovery :thumbsup:

Ya and I mean, no offense but that's obvious. I guess I'll just have to keep reading around. It won't be years anyways because I don't want to jeopardize my ability to have a family.

 

[dbrock504]

I've run AAS test and tren for almost twenty weeks per cycle and didn't feel any shut down both times I did the cycles. Which were only four weeks apart from each other. I've ran a few different PH cycles with test E on all of them. I've ran five total cycles in the past 18 months. And I found out my fiancé is pregnant bout two months ago. So either my body loves anabolics, or the milk man managed to sneak one in while I was away.

And my cousin has blast and cruise for the last 2 years and just had a baby a few weeks ago. By no means does it mean you are completely infertile. Thanks for your feedback

 

[Quest]

Total novice here in for mental gainz....

I really think that it is very user dependent. Some guys are prone to get shut down and some less than others.

My take is if you are the guy with low test/sex drive to begin with and use, you are going to have problems.

I have a buddy that did a easy 500 test e run for 12wks with clomid/ai for pct (36 yrs old) and had problems. Now he's trt...

I did the same run as him and my boys/sex drive etc stayed high before, during and after.

My wife is good friends with his wife and she is always complaining he has no sex drive before the cycle. This guy yo yo's hard all year long gaining and losing the same 35 pounds. He would use a p90x or but shot b12 to drop the weight.

depends on the man right?

 

[dbrock504]

depends on the man right?

Of course it does. I was hoping to see more of a generalist answer, considering everyone is different.

 

[Quest]

Just to add..

I'm 38 been lifting since I was 18. Small biz owner/work outside, baseball, golf, very active.

He's 36, does not lift regularly, ass sitting office job, poor diet.

Safe to think the nails were lined up on the coffin and the test hammered them down????

 

[CATdiesel76]

Just to add..

I'm 38 been lifting since I was 18. Small biz owner/work outside, baseball, golf, very active.

He's 36, does not lift regularly, ass sitting office job, poor diet.

Safe to think the nails were lined up on the coffin and the test hammered them down????

Who knows everyone is different. I knew a guy who took superdrol for just over two months not knowing what it really was. He stopped cold turkey and never had any issues with libido, gyno, etc. everyone reacts different. Never even had any noticeable liver issues but he also never had bloods so who knows

 

[barrymcokiner]

Who knows everyone is different. I knew a guy who took superdrol for just over two months not knowing what it really was. He stopped cold turkey and never had any issues with libido, gyno, etc. everyone reacts different. Never even had any noticeable liver issues but he also never had bloods so who knows

Seen this numerous times- done it myself. When PH's were new, and you could buy them anywhere, I or none of my friends knew about PCT or On Cycle Supp. Recovered fine everytime- everyone is different though.

 

[DR.D]

My main issue with a 12 week Test cycle vs a typical 6 week ph cycle is the degree of shutdown, and the need to use HCG. I assume that shutdown would be worse with injectable steroids because cycles are much longer, and will this longer duration of cycle lead to a more severe shutdown and harder recovery? Is this true? Also I know injectables beat ph's by far in regards to liver damage and toxicity but are other side effects relatively the same? Also i know HCG isnt needed on ph cycles cos of the short duration but for injectable steroid cycles HCG is recommended isnt it? Also what is more dangerous in causing fertility issues? That would be a big factor for what ill choose in the future, i want kids, and i have no problem trying to source some real gear, its just the degree of shutdown compared to a short ph cycle scares me. What are your thoughts guys?

Have you considered pulsing? Sounds like it might satisfy your criteria, and you wouldn't need points. Won't get you huge either, but you can still make decent gains while retaining fertility.

 

[kisaj]

In the end, the people commenting that everyone is different are correct. I know plenty of people that ran what they believed to be safer cycles by keeping them short and they never fully recovered even after PCT. I also know people that run incredible amounts when they run PH or test cycles and they seem to come back fine every time.

If you are going to reap the rewards, prepare to deal with the possible consequences.

 

[CATdiesel76]

Another point, do your best to get pharma grade pct products. Very easy to find if you research. I feel most of the failed recoveries I have seen were due to bunk research chems. At they very least have a few diff companies products in case some are bunk if you go the research Chem route

 

[dbrock504]

Another point, do your best to get pharma grade pct products. Very easy to find if you research. I feel most of the failed recoveries I have seen were due to bunk research chems. At they very least have a few diff companies products in case some are bunk if you go the research Chem route

My good friend is an ifbb pro. I get pro quality out of California if I buy. But that's the thing, trying to decide if that's a good route to take.

 

[DR.D]

dbrock, anyone even tell you that you look a lot like Tom Platz?

 

[dbrock504]

dbrock, anyone even tell you that you look a lot like Tom Platz?

Lol bro that is Platz. I idolize his legs

 

[DR.D]

Lol bro that is Platz. I idolize his legs

:lol:

yeah, the leg master for sure

 

[bennoes]

Total novice here in for mental gainz....

I really think that it is very user dependent. Some guys are prone to get shut down and some less than others.

My take is if you are the guy with low test/sex drive to begin with and use, you are going to have problems.

I have a buddy that did a easy 500 test e run for 12wks with clomid/ai for pct (36 yrs old) and had problems. Now he's trt...

I did the same run as him and my boys/sex drive etc stayed high before, during and after.

My wife is good friends with his wife and she is always complaining he has no sex drive before the cycle. This guy yo yo's hard all year long gaining and losing the same 35 pounds. He would use a p90x or but shot b12 to drop the weight.

depends on the man right?

I'd have to agree with you there, if you have low test to begin with, that could be a problem. I had bottom of the range test before i did my first cycle and i was only in my low 20's, now i just got my 6 week post-pct bloods and my test levels are below the normal ranges and havent recovered from the Halo/DMZ cycle which was only 5 weeks long and my first cycle. Only found out yesterday that it is so low so just gotta see what happens, i dont want to TRT cos i want kids in the next 5 years so maybe ill just have to live with the low test until ive popped out a few kids

 

[bennoes]

Have you considered pulsing? Sounds like it might satisfy your criteria, and you wouldn't need points. Won't get you huge either, but you can still make decent gains while retaining fertility.

Nah i havent considered it tbh, i know Epi is know for pulsing cycles right? Ill have a deeper look into it now. But i just got my post-pct bloods after my first cycle and my test levels havent recovered so i probably wont be on another cycle for a while till at least i get these levels sorted and stable.

 

[AlexPowell]

He asked many questions. Although the main underlying issue that he wanted answered was the shutdown, I think the shutdown got covered.

I am interested to see what people say about pinning in respect to the over all effects, sides, shutdown, and other possibilities VERSUS pro hormones. Just as the op.

He also mentioned fertility concerns. I'm getting married in 2 months and want to start a family within a couple of years. This is a HUGE concern for me too and why I have only run 2 cycles of very mild pro hormones.

lol, you said it wasn't the question
now it is
make your mind up
the sperm count issue was also discussed

 

[jbryand101b]

The longer you are on the more desensitized your testicles become to the effects if Lh & fsh
Hcg! You then scream.

Great, problem solved. Though, for how long is anyone's guess. Can't use hcg forever.

Now for the other unknown number of problems supraphysiological dosages of synthetic androgens will cause.

The longer you are on the more at risk you are for a number of things, not just being infertile an impotent.
To argue or think different is ignorant.

/thread.

Lastly, this:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/198624-cycle-length.html

 

[dbrock504]

lol, you said it wasn't the question now it is make your mind up the sperm count issue was also discussed

I legitimately believe you have a slight mental disability. I appreciate you trying to help, but you aren't. Read carefully

 

[ArmstrongBrah]

I legitimately believe you have a slight mental disability. I appreciate you trying to help, but you aren't. Read carefully

Slight? I know rocks with cerebral palsy brighter than this baffoon!