Strenght/Body Recomp cycle - thinking ahead :) - AnabolicMinds.com

Strenght/Body Recomp cycle - thinking ahead :)

  1. Syr
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    Strenght/Body Recomp cycle - thinking ahead :)


    I'm not even at the middle of my SD/1,4 cycle than i'm thinking at the next one (yeah, this is common ).
    Hoping my waist doesnt grow too much til the end of PCT, I'm aiming for strenght and LBM. I'm getting too much belly inches for my tastes, so I dont wanna do another true bulk next time.
    The cycle will be short (4 weeks, 5 max).

    What i have access to:
    AAS (goals in parentheses):
    SD (strenght, lean mass)
    MDHT (strenght)
    Primo ace -trans- (joints support)
    Anavar (VAT killer, joints - but i'm NOT stacking 3 methyls)

    Ancillaries:
    7OH
    Forskolin
    GXR
    CEE
    Taurine
    ALCAR
    custom's new joint supp (based on Celadrin)

    While i will take ALL the ancillaries, I need some suggestions on the steroids to employ...

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    you need some nolva or clomid for any cycle.
  3. Syr
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    Quote Originally Posted by hethcliff
    you need some nolva or clomid for any cycle.
    Oh, yes of course i'll need to do a PCT. I'll tailor it depending on the AAS used, though.
    I have to define the cycle first and I wanted some imput on that.
    My limits are:
    1) no pin (but i can make trans of primo, EQ, test)
    2) no heavy androgens (i have BPH. hence i didnt put test in the list and i should not consider mdht altough maybe with a good dose of dutasteride... not sure of how much is hard on the prostate)
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    a primo trans would be REDICULOUSLY expensive. i would reccomend against that. why are you against pinning?
  5. Syr
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    Quote Originally Posted by hethcliff
    a primo trans would be REDICULOUSLY expensive. i would reccomend against that. why are you against pinning?
    Why? I havent got the quote yet but I dont think the cost of the primo ace from "that" UG lab would be expensive. Powdering tabs is another matter.
    I'm aiming to high doses (100+mg trans which should be like 200 oral).

    I hate needles of any sort and at any place. Pinning is really not an option for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syr
    Why? I havent got the quote yet but I dont think the cost of the primo ace from "that" UG lab would be expensive. Powdering tabs is another matter.
    I'm aiming to high doses (100+mg trans which should be like 200 oral).

    I hate needles of any sort and at any place. Pinning is really not an option for me.

    Bro...I HATE NEEDLES. I had bone marrow transplants as a kid and I have a phobia with needles. But I will just suck it up when I have to pin. I take then out and look at them to see that IN MY HANDS they can't hurt me.
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    I absolutely hate needles and always have since i was a kid, my first pin took me llike 5 minutes but after that it was no big deal at all and was very easy.
  8. Syr
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    I did some more research and for my goals this seems like an ideal all-oral stack for me. in parentheses the purpose of each compound and in brackets the duration:

    Gear [6 weeks cycle]:
    Anavar [6 on] (strenght, joints, reducing VAT): 40mg ED (this is more than enough for my bodyweight)
    Superdrol [2on/2off/2on] (mass and strenght) 10mg ED, eventually 20mg, depending on how i feel in the second SD minicycle i will start in 2 weeks.
    Oratropin [duration depending on effects and cost, the first 4 weeks, eventually more] (strenght, body recomp, fat prevention, should be synergic with the AAS). I've read so many positive logs that i really wanna try it and this kind of cycle would be the best use for IGF.

    Ancillaries [6 weeks]:
    CEE (additional strenght, synergistic with oxandrolone)
    7OH (fat prevention)
    ActivaTe (test booster)
    Taurine (stimuant, pre-wo)
    ALCAR (nutrient partitioner)
    Udo's oil (good stuff)
    Forskolin (depending on the results I get during the actual cycle I will decide if to use it right again)
    Ginger Root (helps protein absorption, crucial for both SD and var, prevent blood clots -safer than aspirin)
    Policosanol (cholesterol aid)

    PCT [4 weeks]:
    Rebound XT
    6OXO
    Doses to be defined, basically i'll start with high dose 6oxo and ramp it down while starting rebound one week after and ramp it up.
    + all the ancillaries above, minus forskolin and ginger root
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    You always plan well, it looks good. But what is Udo's oil?
    I've only done var @20mg/d, but it didn't do anything for me at ~160lbs. 40mg is probably much better. I have used Feverfew as an asprin sub, but I had only heard of Ginger being used for stomach issues. What's the deal with that?
  10. Syr
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    You always plan well, it looks good. But what is Udo's oil?
    I've only done var @20mg/d, but it didn't do anything for me at ~160lbs. 40mg is probably much better. I have used Feverfew as an asprin sub, but I had only heard of Ginger being used for stomach issues. What's the deal with that?
    I used 0.1mg aspirin ED with SD and i'll do the same the next minicycle. I'm taking a week off now.

    Udo's choice is an oil blend made mostly of flax with a DECENT taste and right ratio of omega 3-6-9 and CLA.
    http://www.udoerasmus.com/products/oil_blend.htm
    Avant is making something similar now.

    About ginger root extract, i just googled it and found among other things:

    "(...)
    Ginger root reduces the likelihood of a blood clot through the following mechanisms:
    Ginger root, ginkgo, olive leaf, and garlic each contain chemicals that inhibit platelet-activating factor, PAF (Duke Database 1992). Adequate amounts of PAF are essential to coagulation and inflammatory processes; excesses are associated with blood clot formation, stroke, and heart disease.
    Thromboxane A-2, a platelet-aggregating factor, is inhibited more by ginger root than by either garlic or onions (Srivastava 1984).
    Prostacylin, an inhibitor of platelet aggregation, is pressed into service by ginger, a process that further reduces the likelihood of blood clot formation (Backon 1986).
    Although all of these effects are similar (blood clot reduction), a study involving healthy volunteers showed no irregularities in blood coagulation among participants receiving 2 grams of ginger a day (McCaleb et al. 2000). Nonetheless, caution is indicated for those individuals with baseline disturbances in platelet numbers or prothrombin time. Furthermore, the activity of prescribed blood thinners may be heightened if used in concert with ginger.


    Ginger root also appears to protect the heart during periods of inflammation. (Recall that inflammation is considered a trigger in heart disease.) Ginger's anti-inflammatory properties are due to interruption of the prostaglandin-leukotriene cascade, blocking damaging prostaglandins but leaving beneficial prostaglandins unaffected. Ginger root (gingerols) has been shown to inhibit cyclooxygenase pathways, sharing anti-inflammatory traits with other popular COX-2 inhibitors (Newmark et al. 2000; Faloon 2001).

    Interestingly, a researcher recently recommended 10 grams of Ginger (approximately 1 tsp a day) to reduce platelet aggregation (Bordia et al. 1997). A qualified healthcare practitioner must monitor this dosage. JAMA published an article raising a cautionary flag concerning the risk of cardiovascular events among users of COX-2 inhibitors (such as Celebrex and Vioxx) (Mukherjee et al. 2001). The FDA has also objected to claims and promotional activities by Pharmacia Corporation minimizing the potentially serious risk of bleeding associated with Celebrex (Fort 2001). It is hoped further prospective evaluations will characterize and determine the magnitude of the risks. In the interim, natural COX-2 inhibitors (including ginger) loom as welcome alternatives."
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    Ahh, very nice Syr. I'll have to look into this, as I'd rather bleed than clot.
  12. Syr
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    Ahh, very nice Syr. I'll have to look into this, as I'd rather bleed than clot.
    Actually anything shorter than 6 weeks should not pose any risk. But i'm over-reacting about possible health issues.
    And i know that a small aspirin dose doesnt harm My family doctor prescribed to my granny for god-knows how long.

    Now if i only had IL-15 oral...
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    I would go with a nandrolone trans if you have BPH, the base is pretty cheap. Nandrolone trans is possibly the best way take that substance, decanoate and phenylprop are both kind of lame esters imo. I'd say to shoot for ~600-800mg/week, and assume about 30% absorption if you are using the commonly found dmso/IPA/IPM trans recipe found on the net, which would mean you'd need to apply about 2g/week, or about 250-300mg/day. Might not be a bad idea to put a little test base in there too to keep libido up and estrogen levels normal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exnihilo
    I would go with a nandrolone trans if you have BPH, the base is pretty cheap. Nandrolone trans is possibly the best way take that substance, decanoate and phenylprop are both kind of lame esters imo. I'd say to shoot for ~600-800mg/week, and assume about 30% absorption if you are using the commonly found dmso/IPA/IPM trans recipe found on the net, which would mean you'd need to apply about 2g/week, or about 250-300mg/day. Might not be a bad idea to put a little test base in there too to keep libido up and estrogen levels normal.
    Uhm... I dont see why you recommend deca. It bloats, its very suppressive (and i cant run test, or at least i can at a very low dose) and it doesnt particularly promote strenght.

    I've been suggested fina and that'll be great if it wasnt very androgenic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syr
    Uhm... I dont see why you recommend deca. It bloats, its very suppressive (and i cant run test, or at least i can at a very low dose) and it doesnt particularly promote strenght.

    I've been suggested fina and that'll be great if it wasnt very androgenic.
    Deca of all the gear out there will not aggrevate BPH, people overstate the bloat off of deca, and it's a fairly effective anabolic. As far as strength, I doubt you'll find something that doesn't bloat, isn't androgenic AND increases strength significantly. Var won't bloat you and isn't extremely androgenic, and it's a decent roid for strength though it's not very strong compared to dbol or anadrol. Primo is just crappy, it's like an overpriced half strength dry deca.

    600-800mg/week of deca would give you great results. If you are loaded I guess you could go with primobolan base if you can find it (I think I've seen it around) and run that trans at ~1g effective dose/week and that'd work pretty well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exnihilo
    Deca of all the gear out there will not aggrevate BPH, people overstate the bloat off of deca, and it's a fairly effective anabolic. As far as strength, I doubt you'll find something that doesn't bloat, isn't androgenic AND increases strength significantly. Var won't bloat you and isn't extremely androgenic, and it's a decent roid for strength though it's not very strong compared to dbol or anadrol. Primo is just crappy, it's like an overpriced half strength dry deca.

    600-800mg/week of deca would give you great results. If you are loaded I guess you could go with primobolan base if you can find it (I think I've seen it around) and run that trans at ~1g effective dose/week and that'd work pretty well.
    I can tolerate a bit of bloat, it'll not be a true cutting cycle.
    What i mean is that for strenght and leaning out a strong dose of Anavar should be better. I responded well to m4ohn and i expect AT LEAST the same results at a double dose (mg per mg).

    "As far as strength, I doubt you'll find something that doesn't bloat, isn't androgenic AND increases strength significantly"
    There is Superdrol is exactly this. And I believe Masteron too, altough I dont know the real androgenicity.
    I'm discarding primo: anavar is superior and much less androgenic. Pity, i wanted to run an oral + a trans. Eventually I'll run a very low dose of test, transdermally.

    Did you see the stack I'm actually considering? Its on post #8.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syr
    "As far as strength, I doubt you'll find something that doesn't bloat, isn't androgenic AND increases strength significantly"
    There is Superdrol is exactly this. And I believe Masteron too, altough I dont know the real androgenicity.
    Superdrol, oral drostanolone, is a DHT derivative, it is quite androgenic. Also, in a lot of the superdrol writups people talk about putting on ~5lbs in a week... I think it bloats some people.

    Also, don't forget that m4ohn is a nandrolone compound. If you responded well to that you will probably respond well to nandrolone.

    Realistically if you can afford it you should just run var-only. At about 60-80mg/day that will make you quite happy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exnihilo
    Superdrol, oral drostanolone, is a DHT derivative, it is quite androgenic. Also, in a lot of the superdrol writups people talk about putting on ~5lbs in a week... I think it bloats some people.

    Also, don't forget that m4ohn is a nandrolone compound. If you responded well to that you will probably respond well to nandrolone.

    Realistically if you can afford it you should just run var-only. At about 60-80mg/day that will make you quite happy.
    I havent tried Masteron and I cant tell how much androgenic is, on the profiles is classified as very androgenic. People love it for strenght.
    You know that adding a methyl group (or a double group in case of SD) changes one compound totally. One example is M1,4 vs 1,4: the first bloats a lot while the latter doesnt. Now, in the case of SD the changes are towards heavier mass gains and less androgenicity, from my experience. I used SD for 3 weeks (i'm off 4 days) and I got no prostate issue at all. There's my log in the cycles section, its pretty long so i will resume: about 10lbs (of which 1-2 of fat) and decent strenght gains in 3 weeks. No bloat or minimal (under 1lb that went off in 2 days and i recovered today).

    Note also that for someone m4ohn has been bad on the hair. No sides for me. Side effects are very subjective. For comparison, 1-test gave me some BPH annoyance and i had to double my saw palmetto dosage. I'm just scared to run something known to be VERY androgenic.

    I also have m4oht (oxymesterone) and i'll figure out its best use. I just prefer to stack SD with var, because i know the kind of gains (both mass and strenght) i can expect. IGF1 and probably var too should keep the fat off this time. Also I will not make the little mistakes that led me to get a little fat.

    I ran m4ohn at 20mg, So i'm starting var @40mg, eventually ramping to 50 or 60 but i think it'll be overkill for my weigth and size (i'm small, i bulk at 2500kcal).
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    why i'll use var


    Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1995 Sep;19(9):614-24.Related Articles, Links
    Oral anabolic steroid treatment, but not parenteral androgen treatment, decreases abdominal fat in obese, older men.

    Lovejoy JC, Bray GA, Greeson CS, Klemperer M, Morris J, Partington C, Tulley R.

    Pennington Biomedical Research Center, Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70808-4124, USA.

    OBJECTIVE: To compare the effects of testosterone enanthate (TE), anabolic steroid (AS) or placebo (PL) on regional fat distribution and health risk factors in obese middle-aged men undergoing weight loss by dietary means. DESIGN: Randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial, carried out for 9 months with primary assessments at 3 month intervals. Due to adverse blood lipid changes, the AS group was switched from oral oxandrolone (ASOX) to parenteral nandrolone decaoate (ASND) after the 3 month assessment point. SUBJECTS: Thirty healthy, obese men, aged 40-60 years, with serum testosterone (T) levels in the low-normal range (2-5 ng/mL). MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Abdominal fat distribution and thigh muscle volume by CT scan, body composition by dual energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), insulin sensitivity by the Minimal Model method, blood lipids, blood chemistry, blood pressure, thyroid hormones and urological parameters. RESULTS: After 3 months, there was a significantly greater decrease in subcutaneous (SQ) abdominal fat in the ASOX group compared to the TE and PL groups although body weight changes did not differ by treatment group. There was also a tendency for the ASOX group to exhibit greater losses in visceral fat, and the absolute level of visceral fat in this group was significantly lower at 3 months than in the TE and PL groups. There were significant main effects of treatment at 3 months on serum T and free T (increased in the TE group and decreased in the ASOX group) and on thyroid hormone parameters (T4 and T3 resin uptake significantly decreased in the ASOX group compared with the other two groups). There was a significant decrease in HDL-C, and increase in LDL-C in the ASOX group, which led to their being switched to the parenteral nandrolone decanoate (ASND) after 3 months. ASND had opposite effects on visceral fat from ASOX, producing a significant increase from 3 to 9 months while continuing to decrease SQ abdominal fat. ASND treatment also decreased thigh muscle area, while ASOX treatment increased high muscle. ASND reversed the effects of ASOX on lipoproteins and thyroid hormones. The previously reported effect of T to decrease visceral fat was not observed, in fact, visceral fat in the TE group increased slightly from 3 to 9 months, although SQ fat continued to decrease. Neither TE nor AS treatment resulted in any change in urologic parameters. CONCLUSIONS: Oral oxandrolone decreased SQ abdominal fat more than TE or weight loss alone and also tended to produce favorable changes in visceral fat. TE and ASND injections given every 2 weeks had similar effects to weight loss alone on regional body fat. Most of the beneficial effects observed on metabolic and cardiovascular risk factors were due to weight loss per se. These results suggest that SQ and visceral abdominal fat can be independently modulated by androgens and that at least some anabolic steroids are capable of influencing abdominal fat.

    Publication Types:
    • Clinical Trial
    • Randomized Controlled Trial

    PMID: 8574271 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syr
    Actually anything shorter than 6 weeks should not pose any risk. But i'm over-reacting about possible health issues.
    And i know that a small aspirin dose doesnt harm My family doctor prescribed to my granny for god-knows how long.

    Now if i only had IL-15 oral...
    Your UDO's choice will go along way in preventing clotting, both 3 and 6:
    EFAs prevent abnormal blood clotting by inhibiting the production
    of a substance known as thromboxane, which allows
    platelets to clot.
    They are also precurssors to certian prostagladins which help prevent clotting.
    Just a little extra reassurance for you
  21. Syr
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    Little changes in my plan:

    Gear [6 weeks cycle]:
    Anavar [6 on] (strenght, joints, reducing VAT): 40mg ED (this is more than enough for my bodyweight)
    Superdrol [2on/2off/2on] (mass and strenght) 10mg ED, eventually 20mg, depending on how i feel in the second SD minicycle i will start in 2 weeks.
    *Oratropin [duration depending on effects and cost, the first 4 weeks, eventually more] (strenght, body recomp, fat prevention, should be synergic with the AAS).

    Ancillaries [6 weeks]:
    **San Thyrocuts II (metabolism enhancer)
    CEE (additional strenght, synergistic with oxandrolone)
    7OH (fat prevention)
    ActivaTe (test booster)
    Taurine (stimuant, pre-wo)
    ALCAR (nutrient partitioner)
    Udo's oil (good stuff)
    Forskolin (depending on the results I get during the actual cycle I will decide if to use it right again)
    Ginger Root (helps protein absorption, crucial for both SD and var, prevent blood clots -safer than aspirin)
    Policosanol (cholesterol aid)

    PCT [4 weeks]:
    Rebound XT 0/25/50/75
    6OXO 900/600/400/200
    The above doses should be fine.

    * Still NOT SURE to invest 2-300$ on this...
    ** After reading Nando log on CEM I definitely want to try this stacked with LX. Dicana would probably be stronger but I dont want to mess with my thyroid too much.
  22. ItriedtoripoffBobosonowIamgonehaveaniceday
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    Try Turinabol....Riskarb can chime in...from what I hear it's like Anavar on steroids...LOL He says 40mgs of TBOL is like 80mgs of ANAVAR if I remember correctly!
  23. Syr
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaNiaK1027
    Try Turinabol....Riskarb can chime in...from what I hear it's like Anavar on steroids...LOL He says 40mgs of TBOL is like 80mgs of ANAVAR if I remember correctly!
    Very good suggestion!
    I've researched about oral turinabol and it seems really good. I'm trying to source it in europe now...
    Var still sounds like the best bet.

    Also, I'm thinking (for budget reasons) to skip the oratropin and to add a mild thyroid stimulant like SAN Thyrocuts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nandi on CEM
    There is another study I like a lot; it took me a minute to dig the xerox copy out of my files. They looked at combinations of T3, T3 plus GH, and T3 plus anavar on weight loss and nitrogen retention in several subjects. As an illustrative example, in their patient #4, for 12 days with a washout period between treatments, they gave either T3 (150 mcg/day); T3 plus GH (5 mg/day = 15 IU/day) or T3 plus anavar (10 mg/day)

    The weight loss in gm/day was as follows:

    T3: 513 gm/day; T3+GH: 107gm/day; T3+anavar: 100gm/day

    The nitrogen excretion in gm/3days was:

    T3: 37; T3+GH: 32; T3+anavar: 26; placebo: 32

    So just like in the other study on combining T3 and GH, you can see that here the nitrogen excretion of the T3+GH was exactly the same as placebo. In other words, the T3 cancelled all anabolic benefit of the GH. Giving T3 and anavar @ 10mg/day gives almost the same weight loss as GH+T3, but preserves much more lean body mass.

    It makes no sense to combime GH and T3. Combining T3 with a low dose of AAS is a much wiser strategy for losing weight and preserving muscle

    J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1971 Aug;33(2):293-300

    Effects of triiodothyronine, growth hormone and anabolic steroids on nitrogen excretion and oxygen consumption of obese patients.

    Bray GA, Raben MS, Londono J, Gallagher TF Jr.
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    This is what now is looking my next cycle.

    Goals:
    -Reduce abdominal fat significantly. VAT accounts for more than 75% of my total BF and i'm sick of it. This goal raised of importance.
    -Add some lean mass (difficult)
    -Add strenght (more difficult)

    Cycle lenght: 6 weeks

    Gear:
    weeks 1-6 Anavar: 40mg ED (this is more than enough for my bodyweight)
    OR
    weeks 1-3 Oral Turinabol 30mg ED
    weeks 4-6 Superdrol 20mg ED

    Cutting agents:
    SAN Thyrocuts II
    DS Lean Xtreme

    Other ancillaries:
    CEE
    ALCAR
    Taurine
    Udo's Oil blend

    PCT [4 weeks]:
    Rebound XT 0/25/50/75
    6OXO 900/600/400/200 or Nolva if I feel shut down pretty bad
    Guggul
    Lean Xtreme

    Notes:
    -I want this to be an oral only cycle.
    -I cant take very androgenic steroids.
    -I want to avoid potentially risky cutting agents (like clen, T3, Trimax, DNP)
    -I want to avoid "heartbeating" stimulants like ephedrine, but I may consider something mild if effective. Suggestions here are welcome. I'm thinking about Lipoderm Ultra and MAN Scorch...
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    What do you think about adding Phenogen or cAMP?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LCSULLA
    What do you think about adding Phenogen or cAMP?
    I fhe uses Phenogen, he'll have to drop the CEE. Id add Sesathin, if anything. Especially since his main goal is to reduce VAT.

    Im partial to Anavar, especially at 40mgs. I wouldnt use 6-OXO for PCT, use the nolva.
  27. Syr
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    Quote Originally Posted by prolangtum
    I fhe uses Phenogen, he'll have to drop the CEE. Id add Sesathin, if anything. Especially since his main goal is to reduce VAT.

    Im partial to Anavar, especially at 40mgs. I wouldnt use 6-OXO for PCT, use the nolva.
    Kudos
    Creatine will be very beneficial with var. Udo's should be helpful for fat loss, but not like sesathin yeah. I have just one bottle laying around. I'll add it and i hope i can stand the taste
    I have some SAT as well but the thing that pisses me off litterally is that that too is concentrated on the stomach. So, maybe the addition of something topical like Lipoderm ultra would be beneficial.

    I'm not sure about the dosage of var. That depends also on the source i'll use. They say that 25mg BTG/SPA ox is like 40 of others (BD i guess) and i dunno about other brands/labs. I would eventually go 7 weeks and ramp to 50-60mg, dependign on how i feel.

    For pct, dunno yet, but i have everything on hand. I have a good feel of my body. Now for istance i know i'm just a little shrinked and didnt loose sex drive at all after 5 weeks of 1,4 and 3 weeks of SD (stacked) and i'm going with a 3-weeker of moderate doses of Rebound, also to evaluate it. If i feel i need to continue for a fourth week i will. Maybe i'll do a 6oxo/trib a month later (they say 1,4 stays 1 month after u stop it) -i'll see what i feel.
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    Syr, Are you going to use m4oht ever? I still am waiting what kind of results you can get so I can have some idea what to expectfrom it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DmitryWI
    Syr, Are you going to use m4oht ever? I still am waiting what kind of results you can get so I can have some idea what to expectfrom it?
    Yes, but not very soon. Basically I think that 1,4 is not strong enough to be stacked with it. So i have first to get some non methyl stuff (AAS or eventually finigenx) and plan a lean bulk cycle. It'll probably be not before this fall.
    If u want to use it sooner, just dose it 3:2 respect m4ohn.
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    I'm thinking to use it for bulking, but I was hoping you'll do it first, so I could get better idea. Oh, well.
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