First (real) cycle Contemplation: Havoc vs Hdrol

[Will_]

Long time lurker, first time poster. I have been doing a lot of reading on good beginner PHs, and I believe I have finally narrowed it down between an Hdrol clone (haloV) or Havoc.

Main QuestionI have some basic questions that remain after reading upon reading. I understand gyno is always possible (but pretty unlikely) with non aromatizing compounds like epi, and hdrol.. but especially super dry ones like epi. I also see that there are chances of rebound from epi up to several weeks after PCT stops.. even when folks ran a solid SERM like nolva. My main question is this: is there a distinct difference between the risk of gyno later on during an hdrol cycle (most look like week 5-6) VS the plausible risk of delayed rebound from havoc/epi?

I ask because I have a puberty pebble that remains under my right nipple.. not tryna be the rock in this circumstance.

In any case, I already have the nolva on hand, along with DAA, Erase, and post cycle 3x. I may also see if I can get some formestane, if that is still a thing.

Goals
Strength primarily, but size is always welcome. I am not a big guy. Dry/wet doesn't matter much to me, sounds like epi is drier/harder, but at the cost of a little more joint health, and taurine for the pumps.

No gyno, and not too much fatigue.. more on being a fatigue ***** in "history"

History
Competitive athlete from ages 7-18... the passion for fitness stuck, the sport did not. From that an obsession with weight training was born ... weighed 138 coming into college at age 19, last June (age 22) got up to 168lbs. Started an anti-depressant and a really rough job, plummeted back to 149lbs... now off the anti depressant, and remember what an appetite is. Been lifting seriously for about 5 years. Standard hard gainer, but reasonably strong. The depression ****ed me up some, which is why I would rather fewer swings and less fatigue, if possible. I am not going to do something like 40/50/50/50/40 for epi... or anything drastic. I am no longer 'depressed', but I don't want to go back (fatigued as hell all the time for no apparent reason). That's that sh*t I don't like.

Supplement History:
basic: creatines/proteins/fish oils, and X Factor (Arachindonic acid)
higher: LG M1D with perhaps unnecessary calculated PCT (but no SERM) last year
Highest: LG Andro Bulk Stack (M1D, 1androstenelone) with PCT as Form-X, PCT Revolution, DAA, and Erase -- got like no results with this except some vascularity, higher BP, and barely noticeable strength. Mostly the gains were from eating right, sleeping, etc.




Current Stats:
Height: 5'9"
BF (calipers) 14%
BW - 156lbs (up from 149lbs in August from super clean bulk diet)
Squat: 265 (I know).. highest 275
Bench: 240.. highest 250
Dead: 385.. highest 415

All the highest ones were before I went on my anti depressant last June, at 167lbs bodyweight. I want to get back to that, and more. I am pleased my maxes are not that far removed given the weight loss, but I want it all back, and more.

Diet
Has looked like this since I went off the anti depressants in September. Has helped me throw on 6-7lbs. I am probably going to take it up when I cycle.. I have about 5 levels since my weight has fluctuated so much, and I can always make more.

General Questions, if you are still reading

I have read some people run some nolva during their cycle to help prevent gyno, and others say they are complete idiots. I tend to think they are idiots. Is that correct?

I know both are methylated, and technically havoc is a class III and hdrol a class II.. but if I have all my sh*t together at the start, and don't do anything stupid with the dosing.. and have a solid SERM based PCT, that either are good novice cycles?

I am still a little unclear on this... for epi -- with a danger of rebound a good while after, it seems as though the best bet is to taper off the serm, while you taper on to an AI (like Erase) and then finally taper off the AI. Is this correct?

Thank you

I hope I am not too noobish, I really have read for months as to pinning vs. orals, PHs, Serms, and all things hormonal in general. more specifically hours and hours in the past week to Havoc and Hdrol specific stuff.

 

[Jalex]

Skim read and what?

Title says first real cycle but then you say you have done multiple and stronger PH than your suggested halodrol already.

 

[Will_]

Jalex, thanks for the reply.

1) LG sciences M1d, which isn't made anymore, and did not require PCT (I did OTC anyway).

2) I also did LG sciences Andro bulk kit. Which is basically supposed to be like 1andro, very mild otc PCT recommended, but I did the recommended PCT, plus Erase, and DAA as per TunedSports.

Neither of those are very strong at all, and the Andro bulk kit did hardly anything... neither are methylated, and neither require or even recommend a SERM. I was under the impression they were very weak, hence my title. Furthermore, I have heard some pretty jaded stuff about LG.

From the logs I have read with gains, sides, PCT etc, it seems as though Hdrol would be a solid step up, and Epi would be a skip step and hop up?

 

[yates84]

Have ran both, halo for 6 weeks up to 100 mg. Kicked ass for me. Ran it with dermacrine and felt great the whole cycle. Gains where good and continued through pct. I liked epi, but had a better run with the halo. You are just going to have to pay attention to your nips and adjust your supplements accordingly. No one can say if you will get gyno, take the ph and find out!

 

[slayer01994]

With the AI i've heard a lot of stuff about it. I've heard people using it during cycle and pct, or just during their pct. If you wanted to you could do it during pct but just take your serm for the first two weeks then take your serm and AI for the last two week then just your AI another two weeks. If your looking for an AI you could try Menace Nutritions Growth Factor Extreme.

 

[Will_]

Have ran both, halo for 6 weeks up to 100 mg. Kicked ass for me. Ran it with dermacrine and felt great the whole cycle. Gains where good and continued through pct. I liked epi, but had a better run with the halo. You are just going to have to pay attention to your nips and adjust your supplements accordingly. No one can say if you will get gyno, take the ph and find out!

Thank you for your input -- repped. Presumable the dermacrine was to combat lethargy? I have heard of people doing this, apparently DHEA/DAA are used to help negate some of the shut down sides (lack of libido and so forth)..

I am leaning towards running just the cycle support, taurine when needed, 3,6 cocktail, and the PH of choice while on the cycle, but I still have not decided. I want to know everything there is to know before I fks with either of these.

I definitely want to stay eons away from doing the whole letro gambit like 2 months later.

With the AI i've heard a lot of stuff about it. I've heard people using it during cycle and pct, or just during their pct. If you wanted to you could do it during pct but just take your serm for the first two weeks then take your serm and AI for the last two week then just your AI another two weeks. If your looking for an AI you could try Menace Nutritions Growth Factor Extreme.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Serm> serm+AI > AI, with solid tapers. Thank you!

never heard of GFE. I will give it a look

 

[slayer01994]

^^^ Growth Factor Extreme(GFE) is pretty nice. You can check it out over at, bring themayhem.com if you want.

 

[yates84]

Yes, dermacrine was for lethargy. Definitely did it's job as I was non stop the whole cycle. Appreciate the reps my friend, will be glad to help you any way I can

 

[warbird01]

I personally like epi more than h drol. You only run a SERM on cycle if you start getting a gyno flare up. Some people use an AI, some people use a SERM. You shouldn't have estrogen problems on epi or h drol though.

I would also run Cycle Assist during your cycle.

 

[mw1]

I love Hdrol so i would recommend that with Cycle Assist on cycle and Nolva/Inhibit E for PCT

 

[warbird01]

I love Hdrol so i would recommend that with Cycle Assist on cycle and Nolva/Inhibit E for PCT

Inhibit e? :isee:

 

[Will_]

^^^ Growth Factor Extreme(GFE) is pretty nice. You can check it out over at, bring themayhem.com if you want.

Duly noted. Thank you

Yes, dermacrine was for lethargy. Definitely did it's job as I was non stop the whole cycle. Appreciate the reps my friend, will be glad to help you any way I can

Thanks! Yall seem about 1000x more knowledgeable and friendly than Bb boards. I may look into that, as I suspect the lethargy is going to piss me off. Everyone I know makes fun of me for being busy as hell.. gotta keep the energy up.

I personally like epi more than h drol. You only run a SERM on cycle if you start getting a gyno flare up. Some people use an AI, some people use a SERM. You shouldn't have estrogen problems on epi or h drol though.

I would also run Cycle Assist during your cycle.

That's kinda what I thought, and I am also leaning more towards epi. I know it's a little stronger and drier, and perhaps not as good a bulker... but I will take sandpaper knees over a possible gyno flare any day. Not saying h drol will rustle my nips, but seems epi more likely won't. At least on cycle.

And yes. Definitely running a solid cycle support. Either life support or cycle assist.

I love Hdrol so i would recommend that with Cycle Assist on cycle and Nolva/Inhibit E for PCT

Thanks for the input. I still can't decide between h or epi, going to keep edumacatin myself.
I think I may stick with nolva for the first round. I want cookie cutter tried and true for my first time, just so if something ****s up, I have plenty of sources of knowledge/experience to help.

Thanks for your replies guys. Much appreciated

 

[slayer01994]

No problem! Good luck!

 

[warbird01]

Can't go wrong with either h drol or epi. You will probably end up running both eventually so doens't matter what you start with

 

[mixedup]

NO running nolva on cycle is not wrong actually very common practice for a long time especially among heavier users don't know why anyone in the know would ever tell you that