Compounds for connective tissue
- 02-25-2005, 11:47 AM
Compounds for connective tissue
I've heard a number of things regarding connective tissue and steroids and their anabolic friends GH and IGF1.
I'd like to get some hard info from folks on this board though about it. Here is my understanding as it is currently:
1) Steroids which aromatize help joints via water retention. The water retention helps to lubricate joints. Deca is especially good at this.
2) Lowering estrogen hamrs joints for the same reason point number 1 helps them. Drying out removes the lubrication and thus results in damaged joints.
points 1 and 2 are primarily influencing cartillage, not tendons and ligaments.
3) Winstrol increases tendon and ligament growth however decreases cross striations in them thereby actually weakening their structure.
4) GH and IGF1 increases tendon and ligament strength even though they cause joint pain.
Please correct anything here that is wrong. I am most interested in finding out if there are any compounds or a stack of compounds which can actually noticeably improve joint stability. Yes I know Glucosamine, Chondroitin, etc. all help cartillage. I'm mostly concerned with tendons and ligaments though. For example, if there are any compounds which increase cross striations in tendons then perhaps a combination of Winstrol and that compound will cause a drastica improvement in tendon strength.
So, post away. Include studies if you know them, etc.
- 02-25-2005, 12:53 PM
This study appears to show that Winstrol increases collagen synthesis via TGF-beta1.
This would imply that Winstrol is actually good for joint health. I wonder if perhaps the joint pain associated with Winstrol is merely caused by the fact that it dries you out.
- 02-25-2005, 02:32 PM
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deca helps with collagen alot...
02-25-2005, 03:01 PM
I was gonna mention Decca myself. Also lactic acid actually helps with connective tissues of all kinds. That's one of the reasons HST cycles start with 15 rep work, to prepare those tissues for the heavier weights coming later in the cycle.
02-25-2005, 03:29 PM
well there are better people to answer this but I don't think that estrogen has much of anything to do with it. Its not the reason that deca cause you to hold water anyway I have it right. It doesn't aromatize much to start with anyways.Originally Posted by Nullifidian
You are however quite right about the winny. It has the odd effect of both increasing collagen synthesis and weaking the tendons at the same time. Here is a nice write up on by animal massoriginally posted by AnimalMass on competitivemuscle.com
While injecting test increases protein syntesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.
Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.
Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen syn while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.
Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.
You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.
Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.
While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.
To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle.
Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.
Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood
Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.
Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.
Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.
These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:
Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days
Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.
GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.
Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.
Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS -- the decision is up to you.
02-25-2005, 03:42 PM
This is a topic I need more info on... If you have any links or more reports, please share.
My The 1 LOG: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/254164-my-one-log.html
02-25-2005, 03:55 PM
I have been curious as to why so many are such fans of EQ when Deca seemed better to me. Now I know why. I've been contemplating my first "dark side" cycle for a while now. Test (500mg/week of E, or 600mg/week of Cyp) along with either Deca or EQ most likely. I was thinking Deca because of its ability to help joints. Seeing as how it appears that EQ helps actual joint tissue even better, PLUS it causes minimal bloat, PLUS it increases appetite, PLUS it increases blood volume drastically, PLUS it is slightly more anabolic mg for mg than Deca, I gotta go with EQ. Hopefully the increased collagen synth from the EQ will be anough to counteract the decrease from the Test.
02-25-2005, 05:55 PM
I don't know anyone who's done a decent dose of deca who hasn't grown well. I know a few people who've done EQ and noticed little from it. The ancillary benefits of EQ are more valuable than it's (slight) anabolic power IMO.Originally Posted by Nullifidian
02-26-2005, 12:14 AM
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sounds good, just make sure it's run a long ass time (~14 weeks)Originally Posted by Nullifidian
02-26-2005, 03:02 AM
Becareful here bro, you might be drawing conclusions that aren't warented. EQ may rase you collagen synthesis more then deca but that does not mean that it is better for the joints. on the contrary the drug of choice for this is deca hands down due to its lubercating effect that EQ doesn't have. Also EQ is far weaker then Deca. 300 to 400mg of deca is all most people need for a cycle (single steriod/no test) dose while EQ is more like 600 to 800mg (varies person to person, and what your running with) and you still will not gain as much. .If your looking for mass EQ isn't that good of a choice, people mainly use it to modify the effect of other steriods (almost always test) or as a very mild (low sides) cycle.Originally Posted by Nullifidian
Also keep in mind that even with the increased collagen synthesis the tendons aren't going to keep up with the gains in strenght, there will less of a discrepency but thats all.
02-28-2005, 12:32 PM
EQ weaker than Deca? I can understand less weight gain from EQ than Deca because fo water retention but MUSCLE gains, boldenone is supposed to be a lot more anabolic mg for mg. That's like saying test will give bigger gains than Tren. Tren gives far more muscle than Test does, but Test causes more weight gain because of the water.
I understand the concern though that there seem to be a lot more non-responders to boldenone than there are to nandrolone.
Another concern I have with respect to Deca is that as it is, I am very prone to estrogenic side effects. Very prone. Progesterone aggravates the activity of any existing estrogen. Well for most this isn't a problem as long as you keep estrogen fairly low. The thing is, with me estrogen being even only slightly above normal makes my nips puffy. Heck, I get puffy nips BEFORE I even get water retention from estrogen. Thus I worry that with Deca it might be a concern for me that gyno might result even if I use a potent AI throughout. I'd pretty much have to drive estrogen into the toilet in order to avoid the sides.
02-28-2005, 12:47 PM
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I think you've chosen right. I think EQ is one of the best compounds, sides-concerning to be used as base to any cycle.Originally Posted by Nullifidian
Just dose it high enough.
Its you that will run it transdermal?
When I run out of 1,4 i'll get my hands on some boldenone base to make a cool trans
02-28-2005, 05:11 PM
I'm thinking your not making a disttintion here, I said stronger not better. The effective dose of EQ is much higher then deca. Deca is intrensically stronger. That is not to say that it is always the better option. If you look around there are a few threads that I advocate a EQ based or only cycle. If your prone to the sides of a drug then of course you should look at other options. But EQ will not help you out like the deca if you have bad joints (or in my case back) or even just for a newbie who is gaining strenght faster then the joints or tendons can handle it. EQ may help repair but not protect (not sure how much protection it is anyways) by lubbing the joints. However I personally love EQ but it makes me eat like a horse (don't use it for cutting, that was a bad mistake on my part,). So for me its a bulking drug only.Originally Posted by Nullifidian
02-28-2005, 07:58 PM
I think ~400mg of eq is a good addition to any bulking stack, not for the anabolic properties though
Deca can be the basis of a cycle though.
03-01-2005, 12:18 AM
GAH, so my choice is still a difficult one. Joint health is a major concern for me.
Would you say that 400mg of Deca is enough to not fully counteract the joint weakening effect of 600mg of Test Cyp and possibly (hopefully) furthermore actually increase joint stability?
03-01-2005, 02:56 AM
Nothing that I know of will do that. It just helpsOriginally Posted by NullifidianBut if your worried about joint health that that is not a bad cycle at all (Well the ration between test and deca is fine but you didn't give or I missed your stats so the dosage would be a little on the high side for a first time but fine for a seconde time and so one)Also keep in mind that even with the increased collagen synthesis the tendons aren't going to keep up with the gains in strenght, there will less of a discrepency but thats all.
03-01-2005, 10:01 AM
If joint health is a major concern, what about stacking whatever you decide with IGF-1? Is the IGF-1's effects enough to offset any damage done from a steroid? I have some nagging joint injuries and I'm seriously considering some Oratropin when I hear a little more positive feedback about it.
03-01-2005, 11:35 AM
5'6" 205 pounds. Bodyfat percentage is on the order of 13-15% currently. That's only an estimate mind you, I haven't measured myself in a while.
By the time I do this cycle I will have done a cycle of 4AD-cyp and 1-Test-cyp, 1200mg/800mg for 12 weeks with Superdrol the first 4 weeks.
This has got me wondering, is there a way we can find out if Superdrol has any effect on joint tissue? Obviously it whatever info it would be, it would be on paper only, but is there any info on this? Perhaps I'll start a thread in DS's forum about Superdrol and joints.
03-02-2005, 02:58 AM
I think a distinction between cartilage, tendon, ligament, fascia and bone should be made.
they have different characteristics WRT blood supply , adapataion models, pathologies, etc.
cartilage has the least blood supply and the most overuse kind of pathologies. Cartilage has collagen type II which has no tensile strength but rather has brush like outgrowth of GAGs that trap water.
Nullfidian how about Adequan thrown in that cycle? that may help with the cartilage.
re:IGF-1 it has a major (good) effect in vitro on cartialge but in real life people report joint soreness? just can't figure this one out.
03-02-2005, 06:19 AM
Then that would be fine. 600 test and 400mg Deca is on the higher side but perfectly aceptable, esp this being a second cycle. (1-Test in any form is a real steriod, In my book thats a cycle)Originally Posted by Nullifidian
For myself I believe in longer cycles, esp with deca or EQ as they take so long to build up (almost 6 weeks to go over 75%) I would also run nolvadex and HCG thoughout the cycle.
03-02-2005, 06:52 AM
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It could dry joints too, but we have no proof.Originally Posted by Nullifidian
I'm running 1,4 with it also for this reason.
03-04-2005, 03:47 AM
Var is good stuff for the ligaments and tendons as well as joints and helps motor skills and neural pathways
03-04-2005, 10:15 AM
Why is it that Var always sounds like the ultimate oral steroid? Joint repair, fat loss, lean gains, minimal hepatoxicity, not very suppressive, etc.
03-04-2005, 05:22 PM
SMALL lean gains. Decent roid but I'd take anadrol or dbol pretty much any day.
08-21-2005, 02:35 AM
08-21-2005, 08:11 AM
from experience EQ is very mild you will barley notice it, but vascularity i got from EQ is really awesome.
my next cycle will be EQ+test+deca+tren+dbol
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