This is why the ban happened
- 02-22-2005, 01:25 AM
This is why the ban happened
Well i ran into an old buddy of mine in the gym, and we started talking about lifting since he couldnt believe how much bigger i have gotten in a year. He starts telling me that he decided to get into shape too, and has been lifting for about 5 months (he is about 160lbs now), he starts telling me he takes whey, creatine and tosses "M1T" in there . He barely knew what creatine was! I asked him how much he took, etc... He finished the whole bottle in under a month, no liver supports, no PCT (!!!) and forget about blood work. He also drinks on weekends. Now this kid is no dumbass, but he simply treated m1t as just another "supplement" because it was advertised in such mild safe fashion. I educated him as much as i could, but it seems like people want to get "huge" with as little effort as possible.
- 02-22-2005, 01:36 AM
he will learn his lesson, when his sex drive is gone with the wind, and testosterone level is -15.
- 02-22-2005, 04:33 AM
this is such a common story. i try to tell anyone who i talk about supplements with the importance research and sites like this. most people figure how dangerous could something be if you can buy it at the health food store. first time i tried 1-test cause the guy at the store told me it was the new great supplement. i didnt understand why my girlfriend no longer seemed hot to me... fortunately i became informed and adjusted my sporadic/ reckless usage. It's really the immediate gratification most people want but dont realize without a commited lifestyle it will pump you up but drop you like a potato.
02-22-2005, 05:16 AM
I don't blame your friend, I blame the supplement comapnies that aren't responsible enough to put warnings on there labels. Some were responsible enough to have them and that is/was commendable.
02-22-2005, 09:45 AM
This is so true, I blame the user. The user should be smart enough to do his/her research on the supp.this is such a common story
02-22-2005, 09:57 AM
How can you blame the user? On any PH bottle ever does it say anything about PCT? If the instructions on the bottles aren't to be trusted I don't think you can really blame that on the consumer.
02-22-2005, 10:30 AM
... You can blame the user for NOT doing research on ANYTHING they are putting into their body, be it a mild herbal suppliment like milk thistle or a powerful steroid like halotestin or methyl 1-t.
-Saving random peoples' nuts, one pair at at time... PCT info:
-Are you really ready for a cycle? Read this link and be honest:
*I am not a medical expert, my opinions are not professional, and I strongly suggest doing research of your own.*
02-22-2005, 10:40 AM
I agree with MB, ppl need to take more responsibilty for what they do.
02-22-2005, 10:41 AM
AMEN BROTHER! I WILL STAND BY YOU AND FIGHT ALL WHO OPPOSE PERSONAL RESPONSIBLITY!!!Originally Posted by ManBeast
02-22-2005, 10:45 AM
back when creatine first came you, did everyone research it like crazy? Or did people just take it like the instructions said. I know I just took it like the instructions said. I blame the companies for trying to make a quick buck and not properly label the bottles. Please research Post-Cycle Therapy before use of this product. Not that hard to put on a bottle.
02-22-2005, 10:53 AM
I completely understand your point.Originally Posted by BOHICA
The conclusion is, that prohormones (or whatever you prefer to call them) were banned because of a lack of personal responsiblity.
Whether it was adults not educating their children, supplement companies not adequately labeling their products, of simply the 'undereducated" not doing their homework, we have the same outcome:
The government has lost faith in people being able to make educated decisions for themselves, and so they eliminated the whole scenario.
No decision to be made --> no outcome to be had --> thus no one to 'blame' for an undesired outcome.
Believe it will not end with prohormones, it will end when people decide to start taking responsibility for their own decisions.
02-22-2005, 11:57 AM
The manufactures also have to have some accountability in this. A lot of people think "naturally occurring" equals benign and good for you. If its sold OTC in stores it has to be safe! Plus factor in how people take supplements with the mindset that if it works, great, if it doesn't no harm done.
I believe that claims on natural supplements should investigated, not just given an "FDA we'll look the other way notice" on every bottle.
I wish we could just have a medical acceptance - just go to a dr and get scripts and tests. This would be ideal solution for everyone.
On another note, are any of these manufactures getting legal action brought upon them for Ph/ps?
02-22-2005, 12:10 PM
I blame it on both. But the manufacturer's here are MORE to blame IMHO.
02-22-2005, 12:12 PM
Well I definatley don't agree that the FDA should be allowed to regulate the supp market. If that was the case (and it still might be in the near future) then we will have to get scripts just to take vitamins, and say goodbye to HALF of the other supps that we use. Creatine IMO will be one of them as well.Originally Posted by joshingyou
02-22-2005, 12:25 PM
I can see both sides here. Frankly, the many bottles of M1T I've bought say NOTHING on ANY of them about liver damage whatsoever. They carelessly omit any mention of what is perhaps the most significant cautionary. The liberal in me is outraged that corporate responsibility has been near-zero on this issue, excepting a bit of reading on their web pages (and even THAT comes from their forums, where users--not company names--bring up the liver issue). The "personal responsibility" advocate in me also understands that anyone who dump chemicals in their bodies without doing some basic learning is a fool, and I'm so conservative on that point I'll even include recreational drug abusers, alcoholics, and homeopathy customers.
02-22-2005, 12:31 PM
When I was honest with myself I wasn't against the ban. It certainly sucks for those who use responsibly but I'm sure the VAST majority don't put the amount of research in they need to. I mean how many people do you expect are going to do the research to obtain a prescription PCT drug for something they can buy at GNC?
Additionally, I read the other day that something like 2% of 8th graders surveyed had used steroids in 1994. How much do you think this number increased when you could get M1T @ GNC in 2004? Don't get me wrong, I think all the media "save the children" articles are crap, but this is still scary. I'm all for personal responsibility but are you really willing to say to an 8th grader that they're just going to live with some probably truly awful consequences for the rest of their life because they polished off 12 bottles of M1T in 4 months?
02-22-2005, 01:10 PM
i have little sympathy for the user of a product who inputs a substance into his body without being aware of its mechanisms of action, and the potential effects of use/abuse.
02-22-2005, 01:22 PM
damn right. it's the person's fault who chooses to take a substance without knowing wtf it is. IMO, it's not the company's responsibility to watch out for every ****ing dumbass who doesn't have any self-responsibility or accountability for their own actions.Originally Posted by ryansm
02-22-2005, 01:30 PM
so, where is the line drawn between personal responsibility and company reponsibility? is mcdonalds to blame for not labeling their big-mac's "this may make you a fat ass"?Originally Posted by Foster
02-22-2005, 02:46 PM
Steroids are not innocuous cough drops. By not describing their products as such and using language such as 'test booster' feed the myth of harmless suppliments. Also a minor would not be expected to keep his hands of steroids and phs on his own.
02-22-2005, 02:55 PM
Big-Mac's to PH's is apples to oranges.Originally Posted by Beelzebub
02-22-2005, 02:56 PM
not to hijack this thread but if that is nas7's girl in his pic he is a lucky dude......talk about bouncing a quarter off that thing, i could probably sit down and have a nice fish dinner on that BEHIND! oh yea and i also agree about the lack of info on prohormone bottles, its hard to beleive that prolly half of the bros that used ph's prolly did no pct whatsoever. thats why i am thankful for boards like this.
02-22-2005, 02:56 PM
02-22-2005, 02:56 PM
All the manufacturers should do is describe what is in their product. If they would just call a spade a spade it would be fine, but they didn't. They flat out lied about what it was they were selling. They called M1T a "prohormone" or in some cases they actually had the nerve to call it a "natural test booster." Yes there needs to be personal responsibility, but what happens when the consumer does a search on M1T looking for information about what it does and gets linked to a website that looks very convincingly like it contains valid information, like bodybuilding.com for example, and there they are told M1T has no side effects whatsoever? I know of literally hundreds of websites that claimed that about M1T.
You can't immediately expect every consumer to be an expert on being able to spot bull**** when they see it. You can expect them to read the label though. The truth is, many of the companies in the supplement industry are nothing more than snake oil merchants. It is an industry more full of con artists and scum than even the used car business.
How would you like it if you went to purchase a floor cleaner and on the bottle of floor cleaner it says specifically that you can use it in enclosed spaces and that it gives off no harmful fumes. Then you go home and use it and it gives off chlorine gas or some other toxic foulness and causes you some very serious medical problems. Don't you see something wrong with that? It would be ok if on the bottle it at least warned of the fumes, but in this case it actually went so far as to explicitly deny their existance. That, my friends, is called criminal fraud. It is something many companies in the supplement industry has somehow managed to get away with for years.
02-22-2005, 03:02 PM
Depends on the age, but for a 17 year old or especially 20 year old to not take personal responsibility is stupid.Originally Posted by KCPreki11
Good post, Nullifidian.
02-22-2005, 03:08 PM
Yeah, apples and oranges beezlebub. Like anything else, if a product isn't telling you what exactly it's negative effects are/could be, then that is the manufacturer's fault.
Take these drug commercials for example. Why do you think they always state possible side-effects and such for them?? Because it's irresponsible if they don't and that alone by itself is cause for a lawsuit, backlash, etc.
I could go on and on by giving examples, but the main point here is that these compounds are dangerous. And they the manufacturers are obligated to tell the consumers this. I don't understand how one cannot see this.
To the guys saying it's the consumers fault....what if you never had access to the internet? What happens if you get jaundice from taking M-1T...I'd bet the farm that you'd be looking at ways to sue for your misfortune, w/o a doubt.
02-22-2005, 03:11 PM
Another excellent point. I know a guy at my gym who don't have internet access who took M1T. When I tried to tell him how bad it was he told me that he made sure it was safe by asking the guy at GNC about it. He said the guy at GNC told him it was a natural test booster and has none of the side effects that steroids do. I'm sure the guy at GNC was told to say that by his boss, and his boss was told to instruct his employees to say that by the manufacturers.Originally Posted by lifted
02-22-2005, 03:17 PM
I'm just glad that we all have these boards/info to research with. If it wasn't for places like this, then we'd all be up the creek w/o a paddle.
Just because we're the fortunate ones doesn't mean that we HAVE to shun the uninformed. If it wasn't for the companies selling products w/o warnings, this would all be a moot point and we would still have them on the shelves IMO. Let's be real, steroids are dangerous. They have side-effects. They can be lessened with proper research and precautions, btu that doesn't mean that they still can't cause serious problems.
Being able to buy steroids like we were was indeed a perk to us in regards to legality, etc. But again, these are just loophole compounds....if it wasn't for these loopholes, then we'd never have them in the first place.
02-22-2005, 03:30 PM
I agree with MB because this is something you're putting in your body so you gotta research it IMO. You don't research stuff like toilet paper because you don't consume, but anytime you buy a product for consumption you gotta know what you're doing
02-22-2005, 05:59 PM
I was in a discount supp store and saw the man I used to ask questions hand someone Trib for PCT from M1T..
My first cycle was on his advice. MethlyX and 4ad (25 days) with no PCT and then I found this place and will never go back there..
By the way this guy is very built and does know some stuff, just not the right stuff I guess...
02-22-2005, 06:05 PM
Most M1T products suggest you consult with your physician before you begin any diet or training regimine.
how many people do that?
probably 1 in 100,000
on there for liability purposes of course
My Little Site about Hair Loss & Anabolics-
hair loss from steroids dot com
02-22-2005, 06:14 PM
it all falls on the shoulders of the consumer, it's your BODY, shoot i researched as much as I could be taking creatine, when you get into hormones the responsibility falls completely on the consumers shoulders to research, how can you just take something without even knowing what it is? what it does? how it works? not only will you probably not be able to use it effectively and efficiently, but you could run into problems as is the case with ph's, shoot my prolab creatine said to load, we all know is pointless but it says it on the bottle
when it comes to your body anything you do to it is on your shoulders, i couldn't imagine being ignorant enough to just go popping pills without knowing exactly what I'm taking and what's going on in my body
02-22-2005, 06:31 PM
supp producers SHOULD have a desire to be informative and honest to consumers (i.e. those who are giving them their livelihood) regarding safety issues. I believe that to be a matter of ethics, and certainly everyone may not agree. The creators/producers/distributors we see around here seem to be of that general ilk.
Consumers, as well, have a responsibility to know what is going in their bodies. So it seems to me that both have some responsibility. That's about as wishy-washy a take as I could muster...
02-22-2005, 06:43 PM
My point about PH's and every other supp out there will always be make sure you know what you are taking, from what company, and if there is anything else you need to take with it. I believe it is the consumer's responsibility, esp w/ supps, to be the regulator. Do not rely on the company selling it - you can always assume they will tell you wrong unless you see mouting evidence they are correct. My example for that would be, say, Gespari. He has this product called Novadex. I've never read the bottle, nor have I read any of his PH bottles, but I would venture to say that Rich recommended this Nova crap for PCT of his PH's. (Maybe someone can confirm mention of PCT on a Gespari bottle or this Nova stuff.)
So, I guess those of you for it being the companies responsibility would say Gepari is ok, in the clear - even though we know this Nova is not tamoxifen nor ever will be. But I say if the consumer had done his research before buying, say, M1T from Gespari, he'd know he needed real Nolva or Clomid for PCT - not that Nova crap.
Bottom line - I wish I had a "Smote button" (a Simpsons episode), so I could smote the kid talked about in the 1st post. And Joe Biden.
02-22-2005, 07:08 PM
First, the obvious: the government should not have the right to tell us what we put into our bodies.
Second: PHs/PSs should have been strictly regulated like alcohol. The fact that so many teens were able to buy steroids as strong as M1T is frightening. And you can say it is the kids' responsibility to know what they are putting into their bodies, but this is not entirely true. The pre-frontal cortex of the brain, the part that allows one to reason, is not completely developed. One of the consequences of the late development of the pre-frontal cortex is that teens are often incapable of anticipating consequences, such as gyno, impotence, hairloss, etc. In many, this region isn't developed unti the early 20s. Yikes. This is one of the reasons kids get into so many car accidents. They do stupid things that any RATIONAL person would know not to do.
Third: PCT was dangerously absent from PH bottles. People need to do the research, obviously. That is what I did. I have never seen a PH bottle that doesn't say "Can cause hairloss, testicle shrinkage..." etc. If that doesn't arouse your curiousity you are a ****ing idiot. Nonetheless, the manufacturers could have given a bit more direction.
02-22-2005, 07:12 PM
manufacturers should have taken a bigger responsibility, b/c most pple just go by what is said on the label and never know that other things need to be done
02-22-2005, 09:36 PM
your right, they're both fruitOriginally Posted by KCPreki11
02-22-2005, 09:43 PM
I wonder if that's really true, though, considering that Channel One runs programs that liken creatine to steroids. I'll bet a bunch of 8th graders *think* they've used steroids because they've been over-warned that every sports supp in the world is some form of gear.Originally Posted by anonymousness
02-22-2005, 09:46 PM
Now THAT one baffles me, because I still see knowledgeable people on forums like this one (not *specifically* this one) who refer to using Trib for PCT or "to raise my Test levels."Originally Posted by EEmain
Given that there is not ONE study--zip, zilch, NONE--in a peer-reviewed publication that has EVER found tribulus to have ANY effect on testosterone or body comp, this tells me that even some guys among our own informed tribe still swallow supp company ad copy.
02-22-2005, 09:47 PM
PURELY for liability purposes. For that matter, how many docotrs know anything about the chemistry or uses of M1T?Originally Posted by Deoudes59
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