1. 4-ad conversion rate to Test: Orally? Transdermally?

Thinking to the future, I have all sorts of 4-ad - and my horse wanted to know how much 4-ad would he would need ED to mimic a moderate dose of TEST.

reading up, it converts at 15.76%
(http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/4andro.html)
now is this rate for orals or transdermals?

if and when I put this together, I'd go transdermally w/ DMSO - what sort of conversion rate are we looking at here?

2. D...

This has been discussed before, and it comes down to several things.

At 900mgs transdermal you would be getting app. 40.5mgs test a day. That is not an exact figure just a ballpark. 900 x .3= 270, 270 x .15= 40.5. Which equates to around 283mgs of test a week. This is not a substantial amount, however, when you consider that 4ad may have intrinsic activity of it's own and the amount of estrogen in your system, is it worth bumping the dose to over 1 gram a day.

1200 x .3= 360, 360 x .15= 54. 54mgs x 7 is 378mgs app.

2000 x .3= 600, 600 x .15= 90. 90 x 7= 630.

That is a lot of 4ad.

O14
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3. I really appreciate that info bro.
I'm guessing that transdermal estimate is without the DMSO factor.

(MAJOR EDIT)

wait nevermind -- I got it -- 30% absorbion and 15% conversion...
Makes sense now.

I guess my only question is how much does DMSO enhance absorbion?

4. this is from another thread:

Has anyone tried 4ad solo in excess of a gram a day transdermal? A guy at my gym said said he is running 1400 grams a day. I know that is a lot of rubbing, I couldn't believe my ears! But if you think about it that will yield around 441 grams of test at the end of the week, assuming 30% absorption and 15% conversion. Both numbers are on the low end of what users here report. That would be the equivlent of a little over 600 grams enathate a week when taking the ester into consideration. Is it possible that this could work out to be in the same ball park as a 600mg a week enathate cycle?

Here is the way I look at it T-Bone. Absorbtion is one thing but actual amount of active hormone in your system is another. If you pin 1000mg of 4ad-cyp a week you will get around 1000-300(weight of ester) 700mg of 4ad in you system if you go the transdermal route and get only 30% absorption, for the sake of argument, you will need to rub 2350mg (rounded off), or 335 mg a day to get the same amount of hormone. It doesn't matter how it gets there as long as it is there. For some people the extra aggrigvation of having to rub an obsene amount goop on themselves is worth the trouble of not having to pin, for one reason or another. I am more interested in how the actual amount of active hormone will act once it is in the system, irrespective of how it arrived there. For some people pinning is fine. It is obvoiusly the most efficient way to go, but for others pinning is not an option. I don't know this guys reason for using that much of a transdermal, I am however curious of what the amount of active hormone will do once in the body. If 4ad is as good as strong as some people indicate then this guy is in for a hell of a ride.

Any more thoughts?

5. Any conversion percentage you come up with are anyone cites to, are total guestimates.
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6. Originally Posted by Twin Peak
Any conversion percentage you come up with are anyone cites to, are total guestimates.
Exactly, and you have to consider the hormone itself.

Here is some info on dmso.
http://www.anabolicminds.com/forum/s...highlight=dmso

7. Originally Posted by Twin Peak
Any conversion percentage you come up with are anyone cites to, are total guestimates.
But, still, its fun to try to guess.

I think I remember PA saying that 4AD was about 79% anabolic as test (someone correct me if my memory is failing me).

So, if X represents 4-AD on a mg per mg basis:

X = .1576 + .79(1-.1576)
X = 82.3%

That of course is assuming there are no other metabolites occuring between the enzamtic conversion of 4-AD to test.

As Twin Peak notes, that is a wild ass hairy guess. However, subjectively speaking, having run both 4-AD and test transdmerally, I would say the test (base) transdermal was only moderately (maybe 20-30%) more effective than the 4-AD transdermal.

8. no one knows anabolic ratio of test/4-ad, not even PA.......not even the percentage of 4-ad to test convertion in the liver.

9. if you pin 2g 4ad cyp per week the anabolic effect easily exceeds 320mgs test. it would be closer to 700mgs so 4ad must have intrinsic anabolic activity

10. I dont know about that one I pin 2100mg of 4ad and have done up to 750mg of test and there is a HUGE difference in "feeling" and anabolic activity.

4AD is still a very good alternative

11. How about all of this in regards to the 4-AD sprays. Does the 4-Derm Spray by Dermabolics compare to the transdermal you all are referring too?

Are the numbers for the 4-Derm spray (and Ergo's 4-AD spray as well) near the same as your transdermal figures stated below?

Originally Posted by bow
As Twin Peak notes, that is a wild ass hairy guess. However, subjectively speaking, having run both 4-AD and test transdmerally, I would say the test (base) transdermal was only moderately (maybe 20-30%) more effective than the 4-AD transdermal.

12. the different carriers sure change the equation - adding dmso as well.
the best deal going is Penatrate @ nutraplanet - if you're looking to build one right now...

Originally Posted by Deoudes59
the different carriers sure change the equation - adding dmso as well.
Could you give a rough example of how much better the trans is versus say the 4-Derm spray? Is it pretty close?

Or is the spray more near the bottom as far as effectiveness, like similar to plain 4-AD capsules (not Ethergels)?

14. The "spray" is a transdermal. There are different recipes aka carriers that are out there. Dermabolics carrier is alright, but I don't like the liquid type of carrier myself. I am a fan of t-gel. Any of these carriers are far more effective than caps.

You can get the gel here- www.customnutritionwarehouse.c om.

15. Originally Posted by hushdrops
Could you give a rough example of how much better the trans is versus say the 4-Derm spray? Is it pretty close?

Or is the spray more near the bottom as far as effectiveness, like similar to plain 4-AD capsules (not Ethergels)?

Not really. Just too many variables. Including the solvents/PE's used, viscostiy (the lower the better), concentration (mg solute/mg solvent)......

Formula's that include either DMSO or DMFA are probably the most effective being that they can effectively disrupt the stratum corneum (sp?) where other PE's fail.

16. like Bow said - the variables are too many.
The best you can do is shave the body hair, apply to thinest areas of skin, use a great carrier w/ dmso.
17. 4-Derm spray dosing vs. 4-ad capsules? mg for mg?

Originally Posted by ryansm
The "spray" is a transdermal. .
Got ya, I guess I was just thinking of a gel because they seem to be all the rage.

While we are at this, can anyone suggest a dosage schedule (times per day and amount) for 4-Derm? 5 sprays is 200mg but I don't know how this compares to the original 4-AD capsules (the old Substrate Solutions for example)?

I did well with the 4-AD taking up to a full gram daily spread out every few hourr.

I am pretty sure that you only need to use the spray twice daily as it lasts much longer than the capsules but I'm not sure of the "dosage amount" since it should be more "effective at converting" versus the capsules.

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