Cycle questions and help
- 01-26-2005, 07:58 PM
Cycle questions and help
Ok in the next few weeks I will be starting my first cycle. I have decided on shorter cycles ie: 4on 4 off 4on. Now I am looking at using Testprop or Test Susp, Tren Ace, Mohn, or 'var.
And I am looking to help keep my muscle loss for this cut phase. I have these following questions I hope that you guys can help me with:
1. Would you use Test prop or Test Sus? And why?
2. Which above compound hurts the most, and I don't mean to just inject, but longer pain.
3. If you where to use Test Susp, which would you use oil or water?
4. And what would be your dosages for both on a four week cycle?
5. If you use either prop or susp can you cut it with something to lessen the pain?
6. What size pin would you use for Susp? And why?
7. Can you combine prop or susp with Tren ace to make it easier to inject?
Thanks guys. And I have searched for alot of this info on this and other boards, but I keep getting contradicting accounts. And if you think of anything relevent to my decision: Prop or Susp chime in.
- 01-26-2005, 08:09 PM
1. prop - from what i've read susp is best utilized 2x a day, whereas you can use prop eod
2. i don't know
3. i would imagine oil, i don't know if you could use water
4. if you are cutting and its your first cycle 400mg of prop should be plenty to preserve muscle
6. don't know but i don't see why it would be different from anything else its gotta go IM so 1-1.5" 23g or 25g
7. yes, many UG labs sell test prop/tren ace blends
- 01-26-2005, 09:41 PM
I have never used susp so I cannot answer a lot of those questions, I do however know that if you Mix some BW in the pin with the Prop and leave it sit over night it will pull some of the BA out. I also know that prop, for some people has a long after pain, i unfortunately am succeptible to this and let me tell you, it is not pleasant. Hopefully suspension will be nicer to me.
01-27-2005, 12:50 AM
01-27-2005, 01:24 AM
Your first cycle? I would try 500mg of test e or cyp a week with maybe deca or EQ. If your set on trying 4 on 4 off (I didn't like it much, I would at least go 6) then I would go something like this (you can replace the dbol, NPP, or winny with your choice, fina is not recomended for a first cycle
75mg test prop ED or 150mg EOD of weeks 1 to 4
75mg NPP weeks 1 to 4
25 to 40mg Dbol ED weeks 1 to 4
40mg nolvadex weeks 5 and 6
20mg nolvadex weeks 7 and 8
75mg test prop weeks 9 to 12
75mg NPP weeks 9 to 12
Oral of choice here 9 to 12
I have ran this before (first cycle) and I got to tell you I wish I had just ran a bread and butter cycle instead. Seams the more experance I get the more I like them.
If you want a kick ass short cycle try this:
75mg prop ed or 150 EOD weeks 1 to 6
25 to 40mg Dbol ED weeks 1 to 6
Optional: 75mg NPP ed or 150mg EOD
start PCT week 7 with 2 weeks nolvadex at 40mg ed then another two weeks with 20mg ED.
01-27-2005, 01:28 AM
Oh and TNE in oil is a once a day shot and can be painful depending on the mg/ml and how its made. the suspention, witch is waterborne powder can range from fairly comfertable to very painful. does need twice a day shots. Prop is genrally prefered as it can be taken ed or eod with mild discomfort (depending on how its mad), usually less then TNE
01-27-2005, 01:34 AM
Thanks Skye. I want to use the shorter protocal because of the less sides and I want to gain/loss in small incrimints. I would love to run longer but "the sides" (and I have a really good reason to keep the sides to a min..so trust me on this) and certian people would notice and I would be in a world of hurt.Originally Posted by Skye
Also do you think that the NPP would interact with Avodart? I have read opinions either way on if Deca has a bad reaction with 5alpha inhibitors?
01-27-2005, 01:36 AM
01-27-2005, 01:48 AM
1. Test base in oil---fast,100%testOriginally Posted by LCSULLA
2. Pain varies too much from person to person and product. Suspension(water) is very uncomfortable for many but so is prop and test base in oil.
3. oil for 1 daily injections
4. 75mg daily
5. Sure. more sterile oil
6. 25gauge for everything
Prop would work also and you could get away with only injecting eod. So if you want fewer injections then go with prop.
01-27-2005, 01:53 AM
At first I was going to use Prop but then I keep reading posts about how prop took sometimes up to three weeks to fully hit, depending on the person. And do you think 50mgs of tren ed is to much for a first cycle? Is it completly bad to use it in your first cycle?So if you want fewer injections then go with prop.
01-27-2005, 01:59 AM
Prop starts working fast. I am not a fan of evil tren so I would not be the best to answer your question. However, if you are going to do daily injections then use 50mg of tren with 75mg of test. If you want to go eod, then go with 75-100mg of tren with 150mg of test.Originally Posted by LCSULLA
01-27-2005, 05:46 AM
LCSULLA, I would listen to Skye when he suggested a test e cycle for your first. I would also run it 10-12 weeks. The others gave sound advice as well. Personally, I would run a first cycle as a bulker to take advantage of those virgin receptors. Then run a cutter one or two cycles later. I don't believe you'd have much of a problem with side affects with a simple cycle or test e and maybe 30mg's of dbol for the first 4 weeks. Also, with the test e, you'd only be doing injects once, but preferably twice per week. If you are considering tren during your first cycle, then side affects may become an issue. However, with the tren ace, it will run its course and leave your system quicker.
Oh, and go with the 25g pins. They cause less scarring. 1"-1.5" lengths, depending on your body fat. 1.5" for your glutes, 1" for everything else. Some can get away with 5/8" pins for delts/tris/bis/calves. Make sure you get some 21g or so pins to draw your oils with, then change back to the 25g prior to your inject.
01-27-2005, 07:39 AM
Can't go wrong there.Originally Posted by Cuffs
25G won't be too small for oil based compounds? I used 21G to 23G depending on what I could get when I was on and even those took awhile to inject. If I can get away with smaller gauges then I'm all for it. Thanks.Originally Posted by Cuffs
01-27-2005, 08:07 AM
25's work fine from what I have seen. Just use a larger gauge to draw with. It does take a bit longer to inject, but it's not all that bad. Heat the oil after drawing it to make it easier to inject, and more comfortable for your muscle.Originally Posted by natedogg
01-27-2005, 08:21 AM
Thanks Cuffs and Natedogg.Originally Posted by Cuffs
I'll admit that 10-12 weeker would be best for overall gains and easeability, but they are not for me. First off if I ran a bulker and gained say 35lbs of it (I have heard as high as 50lbs), I would weigh around 250lbs at 5'8. Not good for my health. Second is that if I did weigh 250lbs everyone would notice. Yeah it may seem to be cool to be that size, but I am almost 34 and I am done trying to outweigh 6'2 college linemen. Third my GF's father is a doctor and an avid lifter..he would notice. Plus her brother freaks out about the creatine he once took when training for a triatholon, he would have no problem squealing to the cops about the 'roid dealer (he hates my guts). And finally I once had a small surgury to correct some minor hairloss and while I have no doubt that I could maintain most of my hair with a short cycle, a longer one would be almost impossible.
01-27-2005, 08:30 AM
I totally understand you're reasoning for wanting a short cycle. I'm doing a 14 week cycle right now, and was contemplating going with a short cycle for certain reasons.
Check out Jminis's logs in the cycle area. He ran a couple of short, successful cycles recently. You may want to hit him up about some suggestions. I know the PM's are down right now, but if you become a board supporter, you can utilize that feature and contact him.
01-27-2005, 08:42 AM
02-03-2005, 01:40 AM
Who is feeding you this information??
That's ridiculous for a first cycle. Actually.... ridiculous ANYTIME! I don't get it.
Where are you reading this stuff?
Go with a a SINGLE ester test. Long acting.
Or POSSIBLY Sust.
If you REALLY feel the need go and stick EQ or DECA in there.
DO MORE RESEARCH!
02-03-2005, 03:17 AM
1. If you are set on using one of the two, use prop. But I would use Cyp or enanOriginally Posted by LCSULLA
2. I have never used susp, but prop was pretty painful to me.
4. I would not do a four week injectable (except with tren) but generally with prop 400-500mgs a week is good.
5.Yes, some people use b12, though I didnt have much luck with that as it is water based, but you can cut it with sterile oil, or eq, or deca, if your going to use them.
6. I would use 25 guage all around, except for glutes, I like to use 23g.
7. You could, though tren would be a harsh first cycle, from what I have heard. Though I I did use m1t as part of the tail end of my first cycle. I am about to start a 3rd and will use tren.
Hope this helps! And karma for putting your questions in order, makes them easier to answer!
02-03-2005, 07:48 AM
Whats the deal with alot of people doing Test prop for a first cycle? Must be some sort of fad of late... (on another board I'm I can count 4 or 5 people in the last few weeks who have gone with a test prop based cycle as a first cycle).
All I'm going to say is... If you going the underground route, be prepared for it to hurt, and be prepared to be turned off on injecting. Perhaps you'll handle it fine though, and if its pharma grade it will be a peice of cake.
So in hopes of trying to make things easier on you... if your going to go with a fast acting ester, choose prop over Suspension, simply cause it's less injections for effective use, less holes, more overall comfort. Consider injection 75mg ED, instead of 150mg EOD.. it will be easier for your injection sites to cope. Do mix, and if your going to use tren (which is a heavy hitter), definately mix that with it ED.
As far as worrying about sides and longer acting esters? How do you know you'll have any? Test enan is pretty comfortable that way, for most people... just hit you supps up.. hawthorne berry, cranberry extract, saw palmetto, garlic... and keep up with at least a bit of cardio, to keep your bp in check.
Good luck.. in whatever you decide.
02-03-2005, 07:52 AM
02-05-2005, 05:33 PM
Thanks for the info guys. And I was going to say something pithy to jackass1976. But you have been banned so....thanks BOBO
02-06-2005, 05:42 AM
well there is another option that you might consider. if your not looking to put much wieght on and with very little to almost no sides then you might want to consider an EQ based cycle. EQ is mild, painless, only have to inject once a week, and is one of the safest steriods known. You could probably do everthing you wanted (although you did not line out any specsific goals) slowly with EQ. Simply to run as well.Originally Posted by LCSULLA
600mg a week EQ for weeks 1 to 16
Start PCT week 19 with 40mg nolvadex ed for two weeks and then another 20mg for another two weeks.
if you want to front load it then double the dosage for the first two weeks.
02-06-2005, 05:47 AM
I agree, EQ is good for such uses, though I always like to have some test in a cycle.Originally Posted by Skye
02-06-2005, 04:26 PM
Sorry to run with this thread....
but what you guys (Skye & Grant) just posted... is just what I am looking to do for a second cycle. EQ and Test E or C.
16 weeks seems long.... did 11 wks of test e and tren last cycle.
Would you do 16 of EQ and stick the Test in the middle for 8 to 10?
Would that be stupid?
You would need a stronger PCT for sure...
02-07-2005, 01:17 PM
people complain of high levels of anxiety on an EQ only cycle
abquest i would run test the entire time with it and run it a week past the eq ... normal PCT of 4 weeks of nolva would be fine, although i personally would not run a cycle of that duration without HCG and i'd use it 2x a week 250iu's each time from week 3 until the last week
you don't have to run eq for 16 weeks either you can run it for 12-14 and still see good results just be sure to run the test a week longer (assuming its enan or cyp ester)
02-07-2005, 01:51 PM
Yep, EQ is killer for anxiety, good post glenihan, you dont see too many people who know of that.Originally Posted by glenihan
02-07-2005, 02:40 PM
I have never suffered from anxiety. And while the EQ cycle sounds interesting.... I think I am going to run a bread and butter cycle of 500mgs of test e, 50 ED of TrenA, and 20-40 mgs of mohn for ten weeks (trenA for 6 weeks and the mohn for 4-5 weeks on the tail end).Originally Posted by Grant
02-08-2005, 02:56 AM
I really would not recomend the tren for a first cycle. test e by itself should be fine. adding an oral if nice two (the mohn or dbol)
02-08-2005, 09:30 AM
Why? Does it make that much diff. if you use it, say for a second cycle, then the first? Plus I would be keeping the dosages at 50mgs ED?Originally Posted by Skye
Ok EQ for say a 12 week cycle I would stop the EQ at week 9 or 10? Is that long enough to see results? I don't think I want to be on cycle for 16 weeks (damn some how I am now talking about 16 weekers instead of 4 weeks ) Plus wouldn't the EQ give me an huge increase in appitate?
02-08-2005, 09:36 AM
the EQ will increase your app, and i wouldn't run it for just 9 weeks
i really think you'd be just fine with the test and would hold off on the tren ... the reason being see how you react to AAS at first rather than throwing everything into the pot, especially since tren is harsh and can have lots of sides
but if you insist upon running tren use 75mg EOD as opposed to 50ED
02-08-2005, 09:56 AM
thanks Glen. Ok I just did a search on EQ and I saw a posted i made a few months ago asking about EQ's conversion to 1-test by the 5alpha pathway. I take avodart and it seems that EQ would not convert to 1-test because of this. Thats why I never asked about EQ I think.Originally Posted by glenihan
As for the tren I heard/read that ed doses lower the sides becuase you blood levels are not all over the place?
Is that right?
And my goals are more a body recomp and I have heard Tren does wonders for this type of goal.
02-08-2005, 09:56 AM
Tren is harsh bro, its the gear of the gods but it comes at a price. People that aren't used to injecting, don't know how they responed shouldn't take it. remember the tren sides include: respitory distress (this is no joke here), real agression (most "roid rage" is a myth, tren is one of the few that can **** with your emotions), dehydrations (my first time was so bad I had to drop it), and a slew of others. I'm not saying that you can't but I don't advise it. I wish I had waited a cycle or two before I tried it. If you do decide to go with it run it first at 35mg a day then ramp it up to a comfertable leval. its powerful stuff.Originally Posted by LCSULLA
EQ on the other might, might, make worry a lot, make you hungry, and will rase you RBC. That is about it. Test has more sides but nothing like tren. you can run it for 12 but remember that it takes 6 weeks to kick in (half that if you frount load it). I sugested it because its mild and little sides. Also becuase its slow acting other people don't notice you gains like they would on a dbol cycle. Its just an option though.
If you want to run four weeks that cool bro, we (me at any rate) just think you should change up your gear. you can do that well with just test prop, 4 weeks of test, 4 weeks nolvadex. If you want add an oral or another short acting drug to go with it. nand pp comes to mind.
Just remember that this is your first cycle and anything is going to work well for you. let us know what you decide and how your doing
02-08-2005, 10:38 AM
Thanks Skye. I have decided to run a 12 weeker with TestE, dbol and mohn. Tren was my choice because it was such an amazing compound for recomping. But if most people here think it's to harsh then it's gone. But I would have like to add one more, but if the EQ is not converted properly because of the Avodart, is there any others you suggest? The goal is recomping.Originally Posted by Skye
02-08-2005, 01:38 PM
bump this but I think the EQ is fine if you want and well suited to what your wanting. you have plenty but if you want you could swap the dbol out for proviron (reduces bloat and can help to harden up) or just add the EQ. (what you have should give great results though.)Originally Posted by LCSULLA
Remember that diet is going to dictate how well you do regardless of the type of gear.
02-08-2005, 11:18 PM
I agree with Skye.
My first cycle was Test E and Tren A. The tren made my BP sore for about two weeks. I was red in the face for 4 to 6 hours after a dose... and I was only doing 40mg EOD. :|
Once I *finally* got used to it... and could do it ED.
The red face (BP) finally smoothed out...
BUT.... the Tren Gags were BAD.
Didn't read too much about this side.
They just "show up" out of the blue about 30 min to an hour after a dose.... and last a few minutes.
You just start gaging.
I mean... stop the car, Pull over and get your **** together kind of gaging. :|
You don't feel sick.... you just start gaging.
A buddy told me that he chews really strong mint gum after a dose. That seemed to help. Freaky. I had them the whole time I was on the cycle.
Eleven months. :|
The stuff was great for strength... but it was a rough first ride.
Sleep was bad too until the last 3 weeks. It took for ever to get used to the sleeplessness.
Put 22 pounds on with that cycle.... and still have 18 of them and it's been 10 weeks since then.
02-09-2005, 12:03 AM
02-09-2005, 12:13 AM
02-09-2005, 12:38 AM
11 month first cycle!!! Damn... How long did you use tren for? What sides did you notice ater 11 months, if thats how long you used it, which would be the longest I have ever heard of tren being used.
02-09-2005, 12:49 AM
It was fine. I actually did really well.
No real issues... just the gag problem. It would just "happen" and you would have NO control. It really freaked me out at first.
Other than that.... nothing.
Acne hit me REALLY bad on PCT. My back looked like pizza for nearly a month and a half. Still have some... but it's almost gone.
I really should have only gone about 6-8 in hind sight.
By the last 2... maybe 3 weeks of the cycle.... I was ready to quite.
It does wear you down. If I remember correctly... I got a bitch of a cold the week I went PCT. I have a feeling they were related. I was wiped.
I had done about a years worth of PH cycles (on and off. 1AD and M1T)
Honestly. The M1T was the worst.
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