Dhea with Ai

[musclefool]

So DHEA is a good test booster, but it converts to estrogen. Would taking DHEA with an Ai still work as well at a. Lose dose of 25 mg?

 

[jking4]

I think you only worry about estrogen sides from dhea when you get into higher dosages.

 

[musclefool]

I think you only worry about estrogen sides from dhea when you get into higher dosages.

But theirs still conversion

 

[AnabolicHolic]

yeah I would at least use an OTC AI (like erase or pro) with lower/moderate dose DHEA....just to be safe....esp if you are estrogen or gyno prone.

 

[jking4]

ya but at 25mg estro sides will be miniscule, I doubt you will notice anything. If anything an ai would increase your test by lowering estrogen, so It would only benefit you. but if you are going to take it just in fear of estrogen sides don't worry about it.

 

[AnabolicHolic]

ya but at 25mg estro sides will be miniscule, I doubt you will notice anything. If anything an ai would increase your test by lowering estrogen, so It would only benefit you. but if you are going to take it just in fear of estrogen sides don't worry about it.

I don't know man....my body seems to prefer estrogen conversion to testosterone and DHEA can readily convert to estrogen even in the smallest amounts, esp orally.

 

[jbryand101b]

Dhea can not convert into estrogen.

It must first convert into androstenedione or test

Dhea has been shown to have estrogen receptor binding interaction on its own.
This, depending on how sensitive you are to the effects of e, could bring some issue's

 

[AnabolicHolic]

Dhea can not convert into estrogen

It is not a direct conversion, but it can (and will) go from androstendione to testosterone to estradiol, or from androstendione to estrone. Point being, if it wants to covert to estradiol? due to high levels of aromatase or whatever estrogen issues the individual has....it will. Depends on the individual...personally I am ultra sensitive to anything that can convert to estradiol...downstream or not.

 

[AnabolicHolic]

this site compiled most of the data surrounding dhea and discusses the use with an ai.
http://examine.com/supplements/Dehydroepiandrosterone/
i've taken it at 50mg with 10mg of aromasin and it still bloats the hell out of me. idk but i believe that any steroidal compound with a 3-OH can have direct estrogen receptor binding. pmag agrevates my gyno and dhea does too.

I have enough issues with estrogen and estradiol from the androgel (which seems to cause extra high estrogen #'s as compared to injectable)....so i just dropped the DHEA, I had wanted to continue on with it due to my age....but damn I got enough to handle with the androgel spiking my estrogen. I was using a transdermal DHEA/Preg so I may be acting paranoid since the topicals are supposed to convert much less into estrogen (supposedly).

 

[jbryand101b]

It is not a direct conversion, but it can (and will) go from androstendione to testosterone to estradiol, or from androstendione to estrone. Point being, if it wants to covert to estradiol? due to high levels of aromatase or whatever estrogen issues the individual has....it will. Depends on the individual...personally I am ultra sensitive to anything that can convert to estradiol...downstream or not.

Dhea is incapable of aromitization.
Once it interacts with 3hsb, it is no longer dhea, it is now androstenedione. A completely different compound.
Like I said before, but it has been shown to have estrogen receptor activity. (dhea)

 

[jbryand101b]

this site compiled most of the data surrounding dhea and discusses the use with an ai.
http://examine.com/supplements/Dehydroepiandrosterone/
i've taken it at 50mg with 10mg of aromasin and it still bloats the hell out of me. idk but i believe that any steroidal compound with a 3-OH can have direct estrogen receptor binding. pmag agrevates my gyno and dhea does too.

Dhea does have er activity

 

[AnabolicHolic]

Dhea is incapable of aromitization.
Once it interacts with 3hsb, it is no longer dhea, it is now androstenedione. A completely different compound.
Like I said before, but it has been shown to have estrogen receptor activity. (dhea)

yes...that is why I said it converts to andro and test and then aromatizes from there....but you can continue to belabor the point if you wish

 

[AnabolicHolic]

so....does DHEA convert directly to estrogen or not? I don't think this issue has been cleared up yet.

 

[chedapalooza]

I have enough issues with estrogen and estradiol from the androgel (which seems to cause extra high estrogen #'s as compared to injectable)....so i just dropped the DHEA, I had wanted to continue on with it due to my age....but damn I got enough to handle with the androgel spiking my estrogen. I was using a transdermal DHEA/Preg so I may be acting paranoid since the topicals are supposed to convert much less into estrogen (supposedly).

Androgel is garbage man. Poor absorption. But I'm sure u know that.

I'm interested in dhea... I've recently had a successful pituitary restart after being on TRT (gels and patches) for 6 month. I did a clomid restart in April / may and had my test up around 800 after only being able to top out at mid 500.

I'm 25 but think I could benefit from
Dhea+erase every once in a while.. Any thoughts? I have a lot of unexplained back and joint pain and have trouble growing despite supplementation and good calorie intake

 

[AnabolicHolic]

Androgel is garbage man. Poor absorption. But I'm sure u know that.

I'm interested in dhea... I've recently had a successful pituitary restart after being on TRT (gels and patches) for 6 month. I did a clomid restart in April / may and had my test up around 800 after only being able to top out at mid 500.

I'm 25 but think I could benefit from
Dhea+erase every once in a while.. Any thoughts? I have a lot of unexplained back and joint pain and have trouble growing despite supplementation and good calorie intake

I beg to differ on the androgel point.....I found that after disappointing results the first 6 months, it really took off after that and improved greatly. My last two labs on 8 pumps of androgel split morning and night got me 960 and 1250 results for total test....can't beat that with a stick. Initially I was getting shyt results on 4 and 8 pumps....like 400-700 (well the 687 was "OK" I suppose)....but like I said, after that it started to really kick in so to speak....which is weird since its a topical application (you figure more immediate results that don't need time to accumulate), but it happened.

On the DHEA point I agree 100%....clomid plus DHEA transdermal would be the route I'd go if I were not on TRT. I found that the DHEA added to my overall test #'s by around maybe 200 points or more when I did labs with and without DHEA/Preg while on the same # of androgel pumps.....so for a non-TRT guy it should work even better, or at least similarly. I can't stand how clomid makes me feel though, I'd never survive on it....unless it was really low dosed I suppose.

 

[jbryand101b]

so....does DHEA convert directly to estrogen or not? I don't think this issue has been cleared up yet.

No, it is a 5 ene androgen

 

[AnabolicHolic]

No, it is a 5 ene androgen

Thank god you cleared that up.

 

[musclefool]

Thanks for the advice. I've never messed around with DHEA and thought to give it a try I bought some erase and it's just been sitting so I though stacking the two would be a good outcome

 

[jbryand101b]

Thank god you cleared that up.

Oh, your funny. But saying dhea indirectly aromatizes into estrogen is inaccurate, and misleading.

and DHEA can readily convert to estrogen even in the smallest amounts, esp orally.

 

[AnabolicHolic]

Oh, your funny. But saying dhea indirectly aromatizes into estrogen is inaccurate, and misleading.

does it convert to estrogen in the end in individuals who are susceptible? yes it does. "readily" does not mean it converts immediately, it means it can and will convert in any amount great or small. end of conversation.

 

[AnabolicHolic]

I've "been having" the old DHEA conversion chart since when you were probably in high school BTW, I am well aware of the whole conversion to androstendione and down the line....andro was actually a supp we used to take matter of fact back in the day...again when you were probably in middle school

 

[chedapalooza]

I beg to differ on the androgel point.....I found that after disappointing results the first 6 months, it really took off after that and improved greatly. My last two labs on 8 pumps of androgel split morning and night got me 960 and 1250 results for total test....can't beat that with a stick. Initially I was getting shyt results on 4 and 8 pumps....like 400-700 (well the 687 was "OK" I suppose)....but like I said, after that it started to really kick in so to speak....which is weird since its a topical application (you figure more immediate results that don't need time to accumulate), but it happened.

On the DHEA point I agree 100%....clomid plus DHEA transdermal would be the route I'd go if I were not on TRT. I found that the DHEA added to my overall test #'s by around maybe 200 points or more when I did labs with and without DHEA/Preg while on the same # of androgel pumps.....so for a non-TRT guy it should work even better, or at least similarly. I can't stand how clomid makes me feel though, I'd never survive on it....unless it was really low dosed I suppose.

Ooh yea clomid made me feel like **** at the peak dosing. But i dealt with it best I could knowing it was a means to an end. And those are some good numbers for gel for sure

 

[AnabolicHolic]

So that nobody gets cheated or misled LMFAO

 

[AnabolicHolic]

Ooh yea clomid made me feel like **** at the peak dosing. But i dealt with it best I could knowing it was a means to an end. And those are some good numbers for gel for sure

To be fair, 8-10 pumps is a lot....but I can afford it since my insurance pay's for it and I end up with extra since I can refill every 24 days...plus there seems to be extra in each pump as well. I find I can do 10 pumps with no issues of even coming close to running out...oftentimes I do 12 or more pumps if "on cycle" with some PH or DS or AAS. I bet if I used my phlojel with it I could get away with about 4-6 pumps and be up in the 800-900's or so.

 

[chedapalooza]

To be fair, 8-10 pumps is a lot....but I can afford it since my insurance pay's for it and I end up with extra since I can refill every 24 days...plus there seems to be extra in each pump as well. I find I can do 10 pumps with no issues of even coming close to running out...oftentimes I do 12 or more pumps if "on cycle" with some PH or DS or AAS. I bet if I used my phlojel with it I could get away with about 4-6 pumps and be up in the 800-900's or so.

Yea it's a Lott. I still have some lying around but no desire to mess with it as a mini cycle... I'm lucky to be off it and functioning at the moment.lol

 

[jbryand101b]

i read somewhere that the skin contains aromatase and 5a-reductase. if this is true, it creates a problem for all topicals that are capable of being aromatised or reduced.

"The enzyme (5a reductase) is produced in many tissues in both males and females, especially in the reproductive tract, testes and ovaries,[1] skin, seminal vesicles, prostate, epididymis and many organs,[2] including the Nervous System"

"The aromatase enzyme can be found in many tissues including gonads, brain, adipose tissue, placenta, blood vessels, skin, and bone, as well as in tissue of endometriosis, uterine fibroids, breast cancer, and endometrial cancer"

 

[AnabolicHolic]

i read somewhere that the skin contains aromatase and 5a-reductase. if this is true, it creates a problem for all topicals that are capable of being aromatised or reduced.

I believe it wholeheartedly......due to my issues with estradiol and total estrogen while on androgel. BUT everybody always says that they get much worse estrogen #'s on oral DHEA vrs. transdermal DHEA. So not sure what to make of that, unless the DHEA people are full of shyt

 

[grega60438]

I numerous times see personnel suggesting to take an AI to increase test while using DHEA. I suggest being careful with AI and only use when necessary.
I, while on only two pumps a day of Dermacrine and 12.5 Aromasin E3D, I get pain in my wrists and arms. It feels almost like tendon strain. While on the AI my isolation curls typically go from 60lbs to 50lbs. Loss of strength and tendon strain is not the results I want. The results are the same for me repeated over many months. I stop the AI and I heal and my strength goes back up. Maybe this is just my body reacting differently, maybe I am allergic to AI, but figured I would put this out there in case others have similar results. Anyway I suggest being careful with AI use.

 

[musclefool]

I numerous times see personnel suggesting to take an AI to increase test while using DHEA. I suggest being careful with AI and only use when necessary.
I, while on only two pumps a day of Dermacrine and 12.5 Aromasin E3D, I get pain in my wrists and arms. It feels almost like tendon strain. While on the AI my isolation curls typically go from 60lbs to 50lbs. Loss of strength and tendon strain is not the results I want. The results are the same for me repeated over many months. I stop the AI and I heal and my strength goes back up. Maybe this is just my body reacting differently, maybe I am allergic to AI, but figured I would put this out there in case others have similar results. Anyway I suggest being careful with AI use.

I take about 8 fish oil pills a day to prevent that it really works the days I don't take it I can notice a difference in my joints.