Day 8 of mdien cycle
- 01-13-2005, 08:24 PM
Day 8 of mdien cycle
Hey I am on day 8 of an mdien cycle at 20mg per day. The strange thing is that I am feeling hyped up like I'm on EC. Although I did take 50 mg E and 400 mg C today, that was at 2 pm. Its now 8:20 pm where I live. This feeling started after my last dose of 5mg at 4:54 pm... Its a really nervous type feeling. My hands are sweating as I type this. I feel like I have to do something. I can't really sit still and where I am not sweating I have a warm feeling on the skin. I didn't think mdien had any kind of stimulant effect? Whats going on guys?. I'm wondering about taking the rest of my doses today. I should be taking another 5mg at 9pm est. Help guys, what should I do?. Do I sound nervous?. I wish I had something to help me relax...Maybe I'll go for a walk.
- 01-13-2005, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by ryansm
01-13-2005, 09:19 PM
Are you using any caffeine (green tea maybe?), on any anabolics I try to avoid any stimulants (in sodas too) it seems to really get me wired especially on an empty stomach in the morning.
Hawthrone Berry seems to calm it...
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01-13-2005, 09:22 PM
I did use 50 mg vasopro 400 mg caffine and 50 mg m5aa 1 hour before a hiit style run...But that was at 2 pm est today!. I just ate and I seem to be calming down...
01-14-2005, 12:45 AM
That's a hell of a dose. I agree with ryansm; back it off and asess the effects. You can go there if necessarry, but what if 10-12 did just as well? You don't need to stress it like that (or use up all the goods, for that matter!) And with that much E/C/M5, small wonder you're quakin'!
01-14-2005, 12:49 AM
01-14-2005, 03:34 AM
I did take the rest of my doses. I just planed the cycle this way so I purchased the exact amount of bottles I would need in order to dose it at this amount. I don't think it was the mdien that did it. I've been planning this cycle for 6 months. Its more likely it was the EC, or it was just my mind playing tricks on me because I don't see how the EC would still be affecting me. Although its 3:24 in the a.m. and I can't sleep worth a ****!. I always have this problem with sleep on a cycle though. Its how I know what I am taking actually has kicked in and is working. My skin feels hot all over and is warm to the touch, especially at night. This makes it hard to sleep. I was gonna take some melatonin but I forgot about it until about 1 a.m. By then I just said **** it, I'll sleep when I sleep. I would lower my dosage, and in fact I'm always saying people shouldn't waste and they should go with lower dosages. Its just that I planned this cycle so long ago, and I am a stubborn bastard to change it. Plus mdien is supposedly really mild, so unless the same nervousness keeps happening I will continue at 20 mg. I probally wont get to sleep till 4-5am and sleep till around 2pm. I am gonna take some melatonin tommorow though so I can get back on scedule with my sleep.
01-14-2005, 07:30 AM
EC can jack up up bro.....When I cycle on I start out at 25mg/200mg per day for 3-4 days then up it to 50mg/400mg a day for another 3-4 days then up to 75mg/600mg a day. This way I don't feel so much like I'm on crack
I would also lower the dosage of MD fo a little while. I just got up to full dosage of EC and will start MD at 3mg a day for 2-3 days then up to 6mg a day and see how it goes. It's all about minimizing sides for me.
Edit.......Also when I am up to 3 doses of EC a day, I take my last one no later than 2pm or I have trouble getting to sleep. Usually I dose at 6am, 10am, and 2pm.
01-14-2005, 08:07 AM
Yeah man...that's a bit much on the EC.
I use half that much with yohimbine and that's effective the whole time I'm cutting.
01-14-2005, 10:15 AM
So you used ephedrine, caffeine, and M5AA... and then you are wondering if its the methyl-dien that is stimulating you???
Is that actually the question???
01-14-2005, 11:40 AM
Well, no not really. I wondered what it was that was making me nervous. The methyl dien was the last thing I took before I started getting nervous. The EC and m5aa was taken 7.5 hours prior to my nervous episode. I have worked my way up on EC. I have been taking it for a month straight this time around. I have a long history with its use and have, at one point in my life, been taking up to 175 mg vasopro and 1.2 grams of caffine spread out over the day. I never ever really got any nervousness or jitters from it except when I first tried it years ago...So in the original post that I made I hadn't taken any stimulants for 7.5 hours, so I was wondering what could have made this episode occur. I have come to the conclusion that it was just something mental, something in my head!.Originally Posted by shootmeagain
01-14-2005, 12:13 PM
It could be anxiety, which is what it sounds like to me. I have experience with this as far as having it myself, any surplus of androgens will cause it to get worse. If this is the problem you will have to learn to deal with it or it could get worse. Drop the stims, and just stick with the m-dien.
01-14-2005, 01:33 PM
You right, I did have a recurring problem with anxiety. Stupid of me to take stimulants, but they never really bothered me. I admit I get upset and uptight about small little things. Like today its pouring out and I really want to go do some sprints outside. I plan on doing them 6 days a week for my cycle, which is concentrating on losing fat exclusively. The rain probally won't stop soon enough for me to get outside. That pisses me off and can ruin my entire day. My doctor actually prescribed lexapro for anxiety but without a prescription plan its $400 for a month supply so I can't afford it, and only used it for a month. I would go run in the rain if it even slowed down, but its raining so hard now, I will be soaked within 2 mins!. I run in the snow, the cold even at 20 degrees, I would rather go outside for a run then to a gym, just too stuffy and boring inside!. The slightest thing can set me off. It has been a lot better though since I started doing all this hiit style cardio work. I think it may have lowerd my blood pressure.Originally Posted by ryansm
01-14-2005, 03:02 PM
once at band camp...Originally Posted by T-Bone
I'm sorry I couldn't resist, but seriously, lay off the stims for awhile and try a strong cup (2 bags steeped for 5-10 min.) of "Tension Tamer" tea by celestial seasons- drink about 1/2-1 hr. before bed to help with sleep. Make it weak during the day for anxiety.
Or you can try just taking skullcap, it works very well
01-14-2005, 03:42 PM
No problem, I do sound like a rambling idiot in this thread. What is skullcap?.Originally Posted by AcuDoc
01-14-2005, 06:43 PM
skullcap is an herb. You can get it in tincture, pill, or bulk form. I like to use it for anxiety and irritability. Start at the rec. dosage and work up from there.
I find it better than valerian root or passion flower. Those two make me too tired. If the anxiety is really bad though, those are good choices.
01-14-2005, 07:06 PM
I've tried valerian root, and it keeps me awake actually. I also like phenibut. Also I use St.johns wort from time to time although I recently read a warning on a box of it that made me think twice. It said that it may block a certain enzyme that makes certain drugs and supplements work?. Where can I get some skullcap?
01-14-2005, 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by T-Bone
Here is a study I quickly dug up on skullcap:
Re: Anxiolytic Effect of a Skullcap Extract
Wolfson P, Hoffman D. An investigation into the efficacy of Scutellaria lateriflora in healthy volunteers. Alternative Therapies. 2003;9(2):74-78.
In 1987, it was estimated that 13.3% (24 million) of the United States population had an anxiety disorder. Benzodiazepines are the most widely prescribed class of anxiolytic (i.e., antianxiety) agents for this disorder; however, their use is associated with adverse side effects (e.g., ataxia, mild amnesia, habituation, and oversedation). Thus, a need exists for new medicines that reduce anxiety without impairing alertness or memory, diminishing cognitive abilities, or resulting in habituation. Herbal sedatives have been used for centuries and continue to be used in many cultures. In modern European herbal literature, phytomedicines that affect the central nervous system are known as nervines. Nervines are classified on the basis of their effects, as stimulating, relaxing, or tonic. In this article, the authors investigate the efficacy of the tonic nervine skullcap (Scutellaria lateriflora).
Skullcap is a perennial herb indigenous to North America and Europe that is dispensed primarily as a tea or a tincture to diminish symptoms of premenstrual dysphoric disorder. In the early 1900s, eclectic physicians prescribed skullcap for nervous excitability, inability to sleep without pain, restlessness, and irritability. In Europe, skullcap "retains a solid reputation" in clinical phytotherapy, and the "British Herbal Pharmacopoeia describes it as having anticonvulsive and sedative actions, and indicates its use in nervous tension states and epilepsy." Despite the extensive use of skullcap, little is known about the chemistry and constituents of this herb. It is known, however, that the essential oil of this plant is composed mainly of sesquiterpenes.
A double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover trial was conducted in 19 healthy men and women aged 20–70 years to assess the effectiveness of skullcap on three outcome variables: energy, cognition, and anxiety. Four treatment conditions were tested: two placebo capsules; one 350-mg capsule of organically grown, freeze-dried skullcap (Eclectic Institute, Sandy, OR); one 100-mg capsule of organically grown, freeze-dried skullcap extract (Phytos, San Anselmo, CA); and two 100-mg capsules of organically grown, freeze-dried skullcap extract (Phytos). Each of the four experimental conditions was separated by at least two days, and the effects of treatment were evaluated at baseline and 30, 60, 90, and 120 minutes after administration. The subjects rated their "experience of the three factors" on an ordered scale; the ratings for energy ranged from "sedating" to "stimulating," for cognition from "diminished" to "increased," and for anxiety from "relaxed" to "tense."
All three skullcap treatments had "noteworthy" results on the three outcome variables relative to the placebo, although the effects on anxiety were the "most pronounced." The effects on energy and cognition were considered "mild." The duration of action was less than two hours, except for the two-capsule treatment, which continued to have a "mild anxiolytic effect" at two hours in some subjects. No side effects from the three skullcap preparations were reported in this study; however, reports in the literature suggest the hepatotoxicity of Scutellaria species. The science section of the February 9, 1999, issue of the New York Times lists skullcap as a tranquilizer that can cause liver damage. In addition, Foster and Tyler state in a 1998 publication that "A report in the medical literature summarized the observed hepatotoxic effects of the herb [skullcap] in four women who had been consuming proprietary products supposedly claiming it for the relief of stress."1 However, no reports in the literature have specifically implicated S. lateriflora as being hepatotoxic.
The three skullcap preparations tested had a "meaningful anxiolytic effect compared with an herbal placebo." No overt toxicity or side effects were reported. The authors suggest that "studies using validated instruments in clinically impaired populations are warranted in order to assess the clinical anxiolytic effects of S. lateriflora." They further suggest that the effects of other herbal anxiolytics (e.g., kava-kava [Piper methysticum] and valerian [Valeriana officinalis]) and of prescription antianxiety medications be compared with those of S. lateriflora to "define more specifically the clinical potential of S. lateriflora as a treatment for anxiety." While this study is the first of its kind – comparing the effects of freeze-dried skullcap to a freeze-dried skullcap extract, there are aspects of the article which contribute to an appearance of bias. In Figures 2 to 3 to 4, the scale becomes progressively smaller, exaggerating the differences between the freeze-dried herb and the 200 mg of the extract. Also, since the blinded subjects took 2 capsules of placebo and of 2 capsules of the extract, they would very likely expect to have a stronger effect than from 1 capsule of freeze-dried herb or 1 capsule of the extract. In this regard, it was not placebo-controlled, but placebo-biased and 2 capsule extract-biased by comparison to the herb. This is especially unacceptable in a study in which the results are based entirely upon subjective impressions. These significant pitfalls undermine the legitimacy of the comparisons of the products made by the authors.
—Brenda Milot, ELS
After HerbClip 070432.247 was printed, one of the American Botanical Council's peer reviewers had these comments to make regarding the article:
There is some confusion about the results of the authors' research through a lack of appropriate characterization of the extract and of the Figures in the article. Assuming that the lines designating treatments A, B, C, and D in the Figures 2-4 represent the 1) placebo, 2) Eclectic freeze-dried (FD) herb, 3) Phytos 100 mg FD extract, and 4) Phytos 200 mg FD extract, respectively, then the 100 mg extract ends up having less of an effect than placebo after 2 hours in all 3 categories studied, whereas the 350 mg FD herb is much more potent than 100 mg extract and almost equivalent to 200 mg extract as an anxiolytic. Clearly, the measured anti-anxiety effects of two 100 mg capsule of extract > one 350 capsule of FD herb > one 100 capsule of extract.
The authors also state that the higher potency / lower weight of the 200 mg extract compared to 350 mg of commercial freeze-dried herb is not unusual between products, and that such variations can be due to a number of factors including "mechanism of extraction." This obviously does not apply to an unextracted herb in this case, and they do not explain that the extract likely represents a larger amount of the beginning herb. The article doesn't say what the strength of the solid extract is, but 5:1 could be expected, so the 100 mg extract likely represents at least 500 mg of herb which thereby lost potency through extraction (350 mg herb was shown more potent than 100 mg of extract). This is only a guess since the authors do not specify the relative strength of their extract.
There are other aspects of this article which contribute to its appearance of bias and lack of credibility. Going from Figure 2 to 3 to 4, the scale is progressively smaller which visually exaggerates the differences between the FD herb and 200 mg of the extract. In addition, since the blinded subjects took 2 capsules of placebo and of 2 capsules of the extract, they would very likely expect to have a stronger effect than from one capsule of FD herb or one capsule of the extract. In this regard, it was not placebo-controlled, but placebo-biased and 2 capsule extract-biased by comparison to the herb.
You should be able to find it in most healthfood stores in the herb section or in supplement/vitamin stores.
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