Gyno from superdrol!

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    Gyno from superdrol!


    Ok, someone explain to me how exactly gyno feels like.
    I'm on week 8 1-t/4-ad (330mg/330mg) and week 2 SD 20mg My nips aren't itching, but when I press on them I feel pain behind them. It's been 4 days like that, it doesn't get worse but doesn't get better either. Is it early simptom of gyno or I'm just paranoid? I took 20mg nolva first 2 days, 40 mg yesterday.

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    I'm on Superdrol/19-Nor and I started noticing mine were looking different too. I have a little bit of pubertal gyno. I examined my chest further, and came to the conclusion that it only looked like that cause my chest was getting alot bigger, pushing them out some. I didn't feel any pain or anything like you did though. After PCT i'm going to cut really hard, and when I get really lean, I'm going to use that Ab-Solved/3-Alpha combo to try to shrink them even more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DmitryWI
    Ok, someone explain to me how exactly gyno feels like.
    I'm on week 8 1-t/4-ad (330mg/330mg) and week 2 SD 20mg My nips aren't itching, but when I press on them I feel pain behind them. It's been 4 days like that, it doesn't get worse but doesn't get better either. Is it early simptom of gyno or I'm just paranoid? I took 20mg nolva first 2 days, 40 mg yesterday.
    i've gotten that before and a small amount of gyno started showing a week or so later. nolva fixed it no problem. more than likely, it's from the 4AD.
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    How much nolva were you taking? I don't want to hurt my gains but don't want to end up with gyno either. It's just weird, I've run pretty wet cycles before without any AI (1-t/4-ad/m14add at very high doses) and didn't have problems.
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    4-AD is very fast acting so i would think if you were to develop gyno from it it would have occured by now. It sounds like you have symptoms of gyno possibly starting to form. You could use nolva 60mg the first day and 40mg/day for the rest of the cycle and that will help if its gyno from the 4-ad.However, superdrol would give you progesterone induced gyno, in that case, the nolvadex wouldnt help. Some say B6 helps that otherwise you need Bromocriptine.
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    i didn't take any nolva until i saw my nips flare up a little bit, then i took 40mgs til it went away (3-4 days). it didn't come back for the remainder of the cycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captainbicept
    However, superdrol would give you progesterone induced gyno, in that case, the nolvadex wouldnt help. Some say B6 helps that otherwise you need Bromocriptine.
    Hmm, interesting... Isn't nolva should take care any kind of gyno?
    Last edited by DmitryWI; 01-06-2005 at 09:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DmitryWI
    Hmm, interesting... Isn't nolva should take care any kind of gyno?
    Yup, I clearly remember Bobo posting a studdy stating that.
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    Nolvadex will not take care of any type of gyno. Ask someone on high doses of deca and had develped gyno, if they were helped by nolvadex.
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    Can you post link, I'd like to see that.
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    Yea i didnt think it would help a progesterone gyno either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buc4Life04
    Yea i didnt think it would help a progesterone gyno either.
    This has always been my understanding...

    O14
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    I've posted this in several other threads but thought it relevant here:

    A cursory medline search will turn up a number of papers where the relationship between gynecomastia and progesterone is mentioned.

    "What is being said is basically that progesterone can only cause or aggravate gyno in the presence of circulating estrogen."

    Just a couple of quotes from studies I pulled up on medline:

    "Plasma progesterone was raised in 36 of 50 (72%) men with liver disease compared with 20 healthy male control subjects. Plasma progesterone was significantly higher in men with non-alcoholic cirrhosis with gynaecomastia than those without, but no similar relationship was found in men with alcoholic fatty change and alcoholic cirrhosis. Hyperprolactinaemia was found in 14% of men with liver disease but levels were unrelated to the presence of gynaecomastia.. Increased circulating levels of progesterone and prolactin alone do not explain the development of gynaecomastia in patients with liver disease, but progesterone may be an additional factor acting in association with the known disturbances of other sex steroids. (1)

    Progesterone enhances estrogen's stimulation of mammary gland growth, and our findings suggest that progesterone may play a role in the gynecomastia that occurs in men with hyperthyroidism. (2)

    This is all we are saying: progesterone/progestins themselves are not capable of causing gyno (study 1), but enhance the action of estrogen, which is typically elevated in hyperthyroidism (study 2).

    "True gynecomastia is a condition in which there is an enlargement of the male breast due to an increase in ductal tissue and periductal stroma.[13]"

    http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle...LN3SJ1SStuTa53D|-3360746919023192434/184161393/6/7001/7001/7002/7002/7001/-1

    Estrogen receptor knockout mice manifest significantly impaired ductal development, implying that estrogen is key to ductal development, and by definition (see phrase in quotes above) gynecomastia.



    (1) Gut. 1982 Apr;23(4):276-9.

    Progesterone, prolactin, and gynaecomastia in men with liver disease.

    Farthing MJ, Green JR, Edwards CR, Dawson AM.


    (2) J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1988 Jan;66(1):230-2.

    High serum progesterone in hyperthyroid men with Graves' disease.

    Nomura K, Suzuki H, Saji M, Horiba N, Ujihara M, Tsushima T, Demura H, Shizume K.




    Lack of estrogenic potential of progesterone- or 19-nor-progesterone-derived progestins as opposed to testosterone or 19-nor-testosterone derivatives on endometrial Ishikawa cells.

    Botella J, Duranti E, Viader V, Duc I, Delansorne R, Paris J.

    Laboratoire Theramex, Preclinical Research and Development Department, Monaco, Monaco.

    Estrogen receptors of human endometrial cancer Ishikawa cells were found to be present in moderate amounts (160-200 fmol/mg protein), and to specifically bind moxestrol (R2858) with a very high affinity characterized by a Kd around 60 pM, when measured under equilibrium conditions. The binding specificity respected a decreasing order as follows: estradiol (E2: 100%) > 4-hydroxy-tamoxifen (4OHTAM: 52.7%) > estriol (E3: 5.7%) > estrone (E1: 2.1%) > TAM (0.2%). The induction of alkaline phosphatase activity (APase) used as an estrogen-specific response, confirmed the intrinsic estrogenicity of progestins derived from 19-nor-testosterone (19NT): norethindrone (NOR), norethynodrel and levonorgestrel, at concentrations ranging from 10(-8) to 10(-6) M. The effect of NOR was partially blocked by the antiestrogen 4OHTAM, which was also partially agonistic in this model, but neither by the antiprogestin mifepristone (RU486) nor by the aromatase inhibitor aminoglutethimide. A simulatory effect was also detected at 10(-7) or 10(-6) M with ethindrone, the testosterone- (T) derived progestin homologous to NOR, and with both androgenic parent-compounds, i.e. T and 19NT themselves. In contrast, progesterone (P) derivatives like medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA) and chlormadinone acetate (CMA) remained totally inactive, as well as 19-nor-progesterone (19NP) itself or its progestagenic derivatives: ORG 2058 and nomegestrol acetate (NOM). Structure-activity relationships deduced from these studies suggest that it is not the absence of the 19-methyl group which can account for the estrogenic potential of the so-called "19-norprogestins", but rather their steroid structure derived from T in a broad sense (including the 19NT derivatives), as opposed to the non-estrogenic therapeutic progestins derived from P like MPA or CMA, or from 19NP like NOM.


    Tamoxifen inhibits prolactin signal transduction in ER - NOG-8 mammary epithelial cells.

    Das R, Vonderhaar BK.

    Laboratory of Tumor Immunology and Biology, National Cancer Institute, Bethesda, MD 20892-1402, USA.barbarav@helix.nih.gov

    Tamoxifen (TAM), an antiestrogen, also acts as an antilactogen in mammary cells. In the present study we analyze the effect of TAM on the signal transduction pathway for prolactin (Prl). TAM bound specifically to NOG-8, an estrogen receptor-negative mammary cell line. Within 5 min of Prl treatment, raf-1, MEK and MAP kinase were induced 2-3-fold over the control level. TAM completely inhibited this Prl-induced activation of kinases as well as Prl binding and cell growth. These results indicate the potential role of TAM as an antilactogen in Prl responsive systems.

    (3)Fertil Steril 1995 Oct;64(4):818-24 Related Articles, Links



    Testosterone-induced hyperprolactinaemia in a patient with a disturbance of hypothalamo-pituitary regulation.

    Nicoletti I, Filipponi P, Fedeli L, Ambrosi F, Gregorini G, Santeusanio F.

    A case of a patient with hypopituitarism due to a disturbance of hypothalamo-pituitary regulation is presented, who developed high-grade hyperprolactinaemia after the initiation of substitutive therapy with testosterone esthers.The increase in serum Prl was strictly related to testosterone aromatization to oestradiol, since anti-oestrogen compounds were effective in reducing (clomiphene) or abolishing (tamoxifen) the enhanced Prl secretion. The oestrogen effect in raising Prl release was not attributable to a reduction in the dopamine inhibition of Prl-secreting cells, as the dopamine-antagonist domperidone failed to increase Prl serum levels in the same patient. This suggests that, in man, the oestrogen effect in enhancing Prl release is mainly enacted directly on the pituitary lactotrophs rather than exerted through a reduction in the hypothalamic dopamine ..
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    Hey D, I would think this is from the 4-AD. Maybe the 4AD and the SD stacked cuased these symptoms? I know 4-AD stacked with M4OHN makes for a wet stack. I don't know, I don't understand all this chemistry crap. Personally, I would hit the nolva at a high does for the first couple of days. But, I'm gyno prone and need to for the symtpoms to subside.
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    Thanks, Bobo, for posting that.

    Yea, I'm thinking it's from 4-ad too, Cuffs. It's what interesting... I ran 4-ad with m4ohn, 4-ad with m-dien, 4-ad with m14add (at very high doses) never used AI and never had problem. Anyway took 60mg nolva today see how it goes.

    P.S. now it hurts more from poking it every 15 sec to see if it's got any worse. LOL
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    i thought superdrol was a dry compound, so it would be hard to get gyno even when used with 4ad??
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    'hard to get' doesn't correlate with impossible.
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    Yeah, that's based mostly on speculation at this point. This is why one should always be prepared.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lean One
    Yeah, that's based mostly on speculation at this point. This is why one should always be prepared.
    Exactly, nothing is concrete especially with Superdrol. It may look like it will do certain things on paper but we all know that things don't always pan out that way.

    Dmitry is this is the first time taking SD and you've ran the other compounds before then I think SD is the cause. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it's a duck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buc4Life04
    Yea i didnt think it would help a progesterone gyno either.
    For Prog-gyno you'll need dostinex, b-6, or bromo to help with that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by -2z-
    For Prog-gyno you'll need dostinex, b-6, or bromo to help with that.

    What is the best source for bromo and dostinex?
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    Quote Originally Posted by captainbicept
    4-AD is very fast acting so i would think if you were to develop gyno from it it would have occured by now. It sounds like you have symptoms of gyno possibly starting to form. You could use nolva 60mg the first day and 40mg/day for the rest of the cycle and that will help if its gyno from the 4-ad.However, superdrol would give you progesterone induced gyno, in that case, the nolvadex wouldnt help. Some say B6 helps that otherwise you need Bromocriptine.
    since when is 4-ad fast acting??

    sure seems like a small amount of 4-ad to cause gyno...i assume the doses are transdermal. also your SD dose is reasonable, such that the speculation about the low risk at low doses might be incorrect.

    bobo's article suggests aggrandizement of estrogen gyno by progesterone - that may very well be the case here. future users of this stack might want to run letro or dex.....is there an anti-prog substance that is easy to get at?

    sure is odd considering dmitry's very wet/estrogenic cycles that caused no symptoms.
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    Bump for more info on this. I'd love to know more about it before I start my cycle.


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    you ran 6 weeks of 4ad prior to the SD, the gyno may have already started by then. By adding in the superdrol you rdrop some water, making the chest area less smooth and making the nipples look different then normal. (this is just a guess)

    Now all methyls can have some type of progesterone activity, but as bobo posted proegesterone cannot act on its onw, you need estrogen present and sd should help get rid of most of it, however not everyone is the same. Assume the feel weird from gyno, better to be safe then sorry, run the nolva at 40mgs until they dont feel sensitive, then drop the dose down for a couple days and then donw to maybe 1 tab every other or every 2 days.

    that low of an amount should not effect your gains but it was probably already there and holding less water caused it to "show up" so to speak.
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    6 weeks of an aromatizing compound... There's your likely culprit.

    /karp
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    I lowered 4-ad from 330mg to 200mg and SD from 20mg to 10 mg for next few days just to be safe. I thought it's from 4-ad, but I got PM from another guy, he doesn't want to go public due to upcoming ban, but anyway he's got gyno after he started superdrol as well.
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    Did he stack with anything? If you're stacking, you need to look at each component of the stack. SD does not aromatize. Progesterone gyno is always a possiblity, but it is much less common than estrogen gyno. If he was using aromatizable compounds in his stack, it is highly likely that that caused the gyno.

    Also, some people are just hypersensitive to gyno.

    Since I am about to start a SD cycle, though, I will be watching this thread with interest.

    /karp
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    Quote Originally Posted by DmitryWI
    I lowered 4-ad from 330mg to 200mg and SD from 20mg to 10 mg for next few days just to be safe. I thought it's from 4-ad, but I got PM from another guy, he doesn't want to go public due to upcoming ban, but anyway he's got gyno after he started superdrol as well.
    if you're for real, then people need to be aware of the risks. keep bumping this, people, for those who heard all the hype about superdrol, spent a month's rent on it and wont hear differently about the risks unless they are forced to. i'm not trashing SD, sledge - just looking out for people and maybe raising awareness.

    apparently there is alot more to the manifestation of gyno than just estrogen. apparently prog can have a significant impact on whether it starts. seeing how 4-ad RARELY causes gyno (when it is the only aromatizing compound in the stack), it looks like the combination of SD and 4-ad (ie. prog and estrogen) an itty bitty titty does make. your testers wouldnt have seen this because they were using SD solo. this is conjecture of course - but what ISNT?

    and it looks like progesterone antagonists are winny and MDHT (similar chemically), just from posts here and on other boards. so if you're not afraid of stacking methyls, add some MDHT to your SD if you are gyno-prone. expect alot of aggression too.
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    Estrogen is single most important aspect of gyno. Its very simple, if you block the recpeptos that are responsible for gyno (which tamoxifen does) the chances are reduced. Tamoxifen also has a better change of stopping gyno from the effects of prolactin/progesterone on estrogen. The studies support this.

    People thinking you need B6 (which has ZERO scientific support in men, only in lactating women) and Vitex or Bromo are mistaken.
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    Mabey a mod can move this thread to the DS forum. I would like to hear feedback from Sldge and other knowlegable bros about this and what might be done to prevent it on a cycle.

    Could Vitex help? Mabey taking it at the start of a cycle stait through?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Estrogen is single most important aspect of gyno. Its very simple, if you block the recpeptos that are responsible for gyno (which tamoxifen does) the chances are reduced. Tamoxifen also has a better change of stopping gyno from the effects of prolactin/progesterone on estrogen. The studies support this.

    People thinking you need B6 (which has ZERO scientific support in men, only in lactating women) and Vitex or Bromo are mistaken.
    Bobo, could you recomend a dose that could be used throughout a cycle as a preventative measure? 20mg/day?
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    For those that think they need Vitex or Bromo, Nolva is your best bet. From the theroy it seems prolactin is much more involved (as everyone speculated) and either Tamoxifen and/or Raloxifene reduces prolactin significantly.


    Antiestrogenic properties of raloxifene.

    Draper MW, Flowers DE, Neild JA, Huster WJ, Zerbe RL.

    Lilly Research Laboratories, Eli Lilly and Company, Indianapolis, IN 46285, USA.

    This 21-day, open-label study evaluated the effects of raloxifene and tamoxifen on estrogen-induced changes in serum levels of anterior pituitary hormones (prolactin, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone), sex steroids (testosterone, estradiol), and binding globulins [thyroid binding globulin (T3 resin uptake), transcortin, sex steroid binding globulin]. Seventeen healthy male volunteers completed the study after being randomized to one of three treatments: raloxifene, tamoxifen, or placebo. Six subjects received raloxifene (200 mg daily) for 10 days, 6 subjects received tamoxifen [20 mg twice a day (b.i.d.)] for 10 days, and 5 subjects received placebo for 10 days. All subjects received ethinyl estradiol (20 micrograms b.i.d.) for 7 days starting 3 days after initiation of study drug or placebo treatment. Results of the primary analysis of this study indicate that for six of the seven analyzable parameters of estrogen action (excluding luteinizing hormone) raloxifene blunted the estrogen response; this effect was significant only for T3 resin uptake. Tamoxifen administration significantly blunted or reversed the estrogen effect in all six of these parameters. Raloxifene, an effective antiestrogen in animal models, is also antiestrogenic in humans.

    "Anyway, when ethinyl estradiol was given, prolactin increased by 2.96 ng/ml above baseline in the placebo group. Tamoxifen completely reversed this leading to a drop of 1.29 ng/ml below baseline. Raloxifene only blunted the increase: after raloxifene administration, prolactin remained elevated by 0.85 ng/ml."


    Testosterone-induced hyperprolactinaemia in a patient with a disturbance of hypothalamo-pituitary regulation.

    Nicoletti I, Filipponi P, Fedeli L, Ambrosi F, Gregorini G, Santeusanio F.

    A case of a patient with hypopituitarism due to a disturbance of hypothalamo-pituitary regulation is presented, who developed high-grade hyperprolactinaemia after the initiation of substitutive therapy with testosterone esthers.The increase in serum Prl was strictly related to testosterone aromatization to oestradiol, since anti-oestrogen compounds were effective in reducing (clomiphene) or abolishing (tamoxifen) the enhanced Prl secretion. The oestrogen effect in raising Prl release was not attributable to a reduction in the dopamine inhibition of Prl-secreting cells, as the dopamine-antagonist domperidone failed to increase Prl serum levels in the same patient. This suggests that, in man, the oestrogen effect in enhancing Prl release is mainly enacted directly on the pituitary lactotrophs rather than exerted through a reduction in the hypothalamic dopamine ..


    As Nandi put it:

    "So for those people worried about the (IMO non-existent) prolactin induced gyno, tamoxifen looks like it would be an effective treatment. Another reason to forget the foolish use of bromocriptine to treat gyno and just stick with the tried and true Nolvadex."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lean One
    Bobo, could you recomend a dose that could be used throughout a cycle as a preventative measure? 20mg/day?
    Perfect.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Perfect.
    Thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Estrogen is single most important aspect of gyno. Its very simple, if you block the recpeptos that are responsible for gyno (which tamoxifen does) the chances are reduced. Tamoxifen also has a better change of stopping gyno from the effects of prolactin/progesterone on estrogen. The studies support this.

    People thinking you need B6 (which has ZERO scientific support in men, only in lactating women) and Vitex or Bromo are mistaken.
    from your previous post, referring to a study:

    "Progesterone enhances estrogen's stimulation of mammary gland growth"

    of which mind ARE you, bobo? that it's all estrogen, or prog plays a relatively significant role? i'm opting for the latter, given that study as well as the two cases brought forth already about gyno symptoms from a steroid known to make prog (and the additional evidence that the user ran wetter, more estrogenic cycles before with no symptoms)

    this is all news to me....what other compounds make prog? and to any of the LR companies - can you get RU486 "not for human consumption"?? oh well...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DmitryWI
    Ok, someone explain to me how exactly gyno feels like.
    I'm on week 8 1-t/4-ad (330mg/330mg) and week 2 SD 20mg My nips aren't itching, but when I press on them I feel pain behind them. It's been 4 days like that, it doesn't get worse but doesn't get better either. Is it early simptom of gyno or I'm just paranoid? I took 20mg nolva first 2 days, 40 mg yesterday.
    Uhm...
    I can say three things.

    1) It looks like you are developing gyno to me Pseudogyno is NOT itchy at all, its just NON-nodular fat deposits. Like darius i got a slight of that when bulking.
    2) You had high estrogen levels already when u started the SuperDrol from your 6 weeks 1t/4ad cycle at high doses (did u drop 4oht? how much was it respect 4ad?)
    3) You ran 4AD before and other wet compounds, but for how long? Did you go past 5 weeks? At the same high doses
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    Quote Originally Posted by DmitryWI
    I got PM from another guy, he doesn't want to go public due to upcoming ban, but anyway he's got gyno after he started superdrol as well.
    We need to know if he is stacking SD with something else.
    Therefore some of us may reconsider stacking 4AD with SD for their upcoming cycles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syr
    We need to know if he is stacking SD with something else.
    Therefore some of us may reconsider stacking 4AD with SD for their upcoming cycles.
    Mabey one would fare better if using SD with 4AD right from the start. I'll let you guys know soon enough... With Nolva on hand just in case.
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    I got PM from another guy, he doesn't want to go public due to upcoming ban, but anyway he's got gyno after he started superdrol as well.
    Can you tell us more about his cycle? Stacked? Dosage? Duration? Thanks.
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    He is running it with 1-t/4-ad as far as I know, I'm not sure on dosage though. I know he has run very high dose of 1-t/4-ad before (400-600mg) without problem. He'll be reading this thread and I'm sure he'll PM me more info about his cycle.
  

  
 

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