Mirtazapine - anabolic/androgenic...?

[Andalucia]

Hi guysNew to this forum but always pop in for a read. The Dr threads are great.i believe the trycyclic anti depressant Mirtazapine to be a growth agent. For the last year I suffered anxiety/mild depression and insomnia and gastro issues after a prolonged phase of working 14 hr days in construction. My docs refused to accept any other explanation other than depression, bar one who was a good listener and open to ideas. I agreed to try all the ssri's they prescribed and the sleeping pills too - none worked and most made me feel wired. My own research suggested adrenal issues and being much inclined to natural products, I put myself through a series of trials on various substances over 12 months - I had nothing to lose. It took that time to get a cortisol test from my local surgery (UK). The test is available ok, for free, but all but one of the docs I saw, claimed it was pointless - even one who specialises in cortisone injections! Sure enough, my cortisol was off the chart high.i had pre-empted this obvious revelation by hitting dhea at 100mg per breakfast and 50mg mid afternoon. My skin, energy, focus and physique all improved substantially as the dhea drove down my cortisol through an increase in sex hormone activity. Ironically, my high cortisol had not made me heavier but lighter and with much less fat - as it was always accompanied by adrenalin - symptom pounding heart day and night. Perhaps also, cortisol's suppression of T led to a dominance of E which in itself does not actually increase fat cell numbers but potentiates anxiety and insomnia. My testes were much larger and harder each morning and held their size over the day.i had been given MIRTAZAPINE by my doc at one point and used it on the odd day when sleep was vital - it is better than anything I have ever tried for that! I knew also, it was a sledgehammer for knocking down cortisol. Recently, I took it in conjunction with the DHEA. The effect was incredible. After 4 days use I went alpha male overnight. I have used plenty of aas cycles in the past, short and long, and I can tell you that the effect of dhea and 15mg Mirtazapine combined was psychologically far more powerful. Not just that, but my vascularity/pumped appearance was very notable. I felt stronger and über confident. I didn't walk faster, I walked slower...with real purpose. I noted that the rate of testicular shrinkage over the daily circadian rhythm was more pronounced (suggesting higher endogenous androgen levels), and I could control this by reducing the dose of dhea. It felt like a high dopamine mindset with the addition of strength and calm. The hangover associated with this drug disappeared after only two days and seemed to be caused by using dhea with it, for without - the day lag was heavy. Also, the dhea seemed to remove the excessive appetite associated with Mirtazapine and I wanted to eat meat constantly with the combo?!So... What is going on here? I actually want to do this again next week as it was such a good package - sleep, confidence, growth, mood, improvement in many functions. Is mirtazapine somehow potentiating the effects of dhea, or does it need dhea to maximise it's function? I would compare it, for me, to doing 40/50mg per day of dbol without the caffeine like symptoms, instead a calm and focused demeanour. My lifting felt really easy too. I appreciate everyone is different but I hope the merits of this personal experience are worth sharing.Nick

 

[insanity00123]

Wat

 

[Madevilz]

 

[Andalucia]

Mirtazapine is a tetracyclic antidepressant and differs substantially in it's methods of improving mood compared to SSRI's like Prozac. In particular it promotes dopamine and noradrenaline activity, with some serotonin promotion also. Unlike SSRI'S (which curve much more in favour of serotonin with some, originally unintended dopamine potentiating) Mirtazapine is well known for suppressing the production of cortisol as well as re-establishing normal stress feedback at the hypo-pit axis. It is now a frontline treatment in the UK for combat ptsd in a does range of 15mg to 45mg. Low doses are histamine dominant and so good for sleep. Higher doses are dopamine dominant and good for stubborn psych issues.
The anabolic side effect benefits for this are (1) there is an inverse relationship between cortisol and testosterone. Lowering cortisol increases natural test production, particularly where high cortisol output is present. (2) there is a direct positive relationship between dopamine and test. As one increases, so does the other. Certain dopamine receptors can offer more of an influence on this relationship than others, particularly the D5 receptor, which in both men and women has been proven to significantly influence sexual desire and engagement. It is likely this dopamine pathway influences sex hormones to achieve satisfactory reproductive outcomes.
My hypothesis is that Mirtazapine is actually potentiating sex hormone production/utilisation, and in the presence of raw material like DHEA, this can only increase. While some would laugh at an anti-depressant offering such a broad range of benefits including anabolic, consider that it was never designed as an antidepressant. It was actually an anti histamine which turned out to have some rather positive side effects. This enabled the drug to be reclassified and sold at a much higher price by the pharma patent owner. So there you go, Insanity, something to think about if you ever have to 'choose' an antidepressant while simultaneously pursuing athletic goals.

 

[JD261985]

Maybe I should go off lexapro and take this lol

 

[Andalucia]

With just a cursory look at the forums covering the use of anti-depressants it appears there are scores of reports that SSRI users switched to mirtazapine and saw a dramatic return to normal levels of sex drive from a previously near non existent state - this includes both sexes. It would suggest to me that the drug is powerful enough to restore chemically depressed sex drive, so what would it do to subjects where this was not a problem? It's now well known that sex hormones are present in high levels in the brain - where antidepressants are alleged to do most of their work. D5 receptors are present there, and in many other organs of the body. I note several users who made the switch reported. a surprising return of nocturnal erections which is a nice physiological confirmation. All I know is, used in conjunction with dhea, it felt great and my mass increased much moreso than with dhea alone, to the point where I had to control the dhea level to prevent feedback hypotrophy. I note Dr D suggests this feedback perhaps occurring at a daily dose of 500mg or higher with DHEA alone. I am suggesting that whatever mirtazapine is doing, that feedback occurs at a much lower dose and therefore sex hormones are increasing at an exponential rate in comparison.

 

[bigflex0]

With just a cursory look at the forums covering the use of anti-depressants it appears there are scores of reports that SSRI users switched to mirtazapine and saw a dramatic return to normal levels of sex drive from a previously near non existent state - this includes both sexes. It would suggest to me that the drug is powerful enough to restore chemically depressed sex drive, so what would it do to subjects where this was not a problem? It's now well known that sex hormones are present in high levels in the brain - where antidepressants are alleged to do most of their work. D5 receptors are present there, and in many other organs of the body. I note several users who made the switch reported. a surprising return of nocturnal erections which is a nice physiological confirmation. All I know is, used in conjunction with dhea, it felt great and my mass increased much moreso than with dhea alone, to the point where I had to control the dhea level to prevent feedback hypotrophy. I note Dr D suggests this feedback perhaps occurring at a daily dose of 500mg or higher with DHEA alone. I am suggesting that whatever mirtazapine is doing, that feedback occurs at a much lower dose and therefore sex hormones are increasing at an exponential rate in comparison.

Something tells me that going off of the SSRI drugs alone would have improved sex drive. Also without blood work to see effects of the switch the results are more or less useless to normal individuals. So many options out there to achieve your desired results that I would not mess with antidepressants.

 

[Andalucia]

JD I tried the other ssri's and they worked against my athletic goals. For a start, the dominance of serotonin over dopamine led me to a blunted state of mind - I didn't exactly feel unhappy but there was a lack of drive and desire. I tested this with cycles of tryptophan alone at 4 g per day then switched to tyrosine same dose. Both of these aminos will, according to new research, support the work of antidepressants which promote their brain metabolite activity. It appears to be a new method of helping to lower dose and dependence. For this, I rely on the work of Dr Dan Kalish who gave a couple of great podcasts on his research on a reliable independent health web station (don't know if can mention it's name re site rules but I don't think it sells anything). The tyrosine was much more effective for me so I guess dopamine was the main player missing in my system. There's also the issue of why SSRI's are so heavily prescribed in the absence of actual physical testing. Many cases of treatment resistant depression are actually situations of high cortisol or low sex hormones, or ADHD. i believe there are a couple of labs in the US who actually test for neuro metabolites to give an accurate picture of a person's 'chemical imbalance' if it's not a hormone imbalance? I had three doctors prescribe me three different ssri's with sleeping pills and beta blockers after less than ten mins each of consultation time with zero testing, which is ignorant at best. A classic established misrepresentation has to be the categorisation of a seemingly benign supplement which plays a huge role in sleep and mood. Vitamin D3 is not actually a vitamin - it's a hormone. I take 10,000 iu every day on waking to get a good night's sleep, yet the RDA is 500iu. I took that cue from a doctor who treated 1500 patients at a sleep clinic with this method. Check out US Dr Stasha Gominak's peer group lecture on YouTube. My only worry with mirtazapine was the dreaded increase in appetite. I don't know why, but the addition of dhea for me turned this into an appetite for protein, not carbs, and even then it wasn't too bad. The dhea also seemed to remove the sleepy head lag the following day. As for SSRI's. I am concerned that they may actually raise cortisol levels. This is certainly the case for 5htp, the serotonin boosting supplement.

 

[Andalucia]

Hi Bigflex. I think the reason they switched rather than ditched, is that tapering seems to be a major issue for many. As Dan Kalish asserts, long term use of SSRI's is actually counterproductive by ultimately lowering the amount of neurotransmitters available to perform adequate function. This would make coming off harder than the original situation perhaps? God forbid that major pharmas would design dependence.
i specifically asked my (one good) doc for mirtazapine and he was a little surprised. There seemed to be better feedback for it on the forums and it apparently had this odd collection of positive sides. For sleep, it is amazing. Nighty night for nine hours! But not like sleeping pills. The lag the following day was discouraging but that's when the dhea synergy really impressed me. I take the dhea on waking. I spoke with a psych i know who treats and lectures on combat ptsd and they were very positive about mirtazapine - that first got it to my attention. Grunts are stubborn when it comes to meds so guess something good is keeping them on that wagon. I'm not saying, go out and get some, but I would be interested in the science and sharing user experiences/analysis. It's obviously a prescribed drug and should be taken only under medical supervision.

 

[AnabolicHolic]

This guy sounds like a mix of a spam-bot and a pharmaceutical rep I see him in a suit and tie with a briefcase full of this Rx and vouchers for a free month, but his head is a robot with a fancy hat on lol.

 

[Andalucia]

Not quite mate. I work in construction as a fitter - floors and walls. I'm ex British infantry, and served two tours attached to your US Core Of Engineers as recon and force security in Iraq - 03 and 04, various PMC gigs after that. I've actually walked away from people socially when they've revealed they're a pharma rep. They don't even need a science qualification to sell their wares. If you think I'm selling mirtazapine, then it would be a cheap deal - they are far less expensive than the latest SSRI's and SNRi's and generic'ed to the max. I got a good education and I maintain contact with friends who went on to be researchers and chemists etc. My old man is an industrial chemist. I train for strength and speed, not size. Happy to walk away from/bin this discussion if it bothers members. It was the members like Dr D and others, with really well researched posts, that got me interested in this forum in the first place.

 

[bigbb123]

Not quite mate. I work in construction as a fitter - floors and walls. I'm ex British infantry, and served two tours attached to your US Core Of Engineers as recon and force security in Iraq - 03 and 04, various PMC gigs after that. I've actually walked away from people socially when they've revealed they're a pharma rep. They don't even need a science qualification to sell their wares. If you think I'm selling mirtazapine, then it would be a cheap deal - they are far less expensive than the latest SSRI's and SNRi's and generic'ed to the max. I got a good education and I maintain contact with friends who went on to be researchers and chemists etc. My old man is an industrial chemist. I train for strength and speed, not size. Happy to walk away from/bin this discussion if it bothers members. It was the members like Dr D and others, with really well researched posts, that got me interested in this forum in the first place.

I remember when anabolic minds was on the cutting edge of all this stuff. Those days are long gone, although we still have some absolutely brilliant members here that have alot to offer.

 

[AnabolicHolic]

This is now officially one of the most bizzare threads ever. Is this really happening?

 

[Andalucia]

Anabolicaholic - yes it is bizarre. Think about it. In 2005, 10% of Americans were using anti-depressants. That's 27M people. More than 80% of those got their scrip from a doctor, not a psych, suggesting a short consultation and trial/error protocol. What percentage of those 27M do you reckon are athletes or at least strongly fitness orientated? If, potentially, a cheap anti depressant offers cortisol suppression, and anabolism through specific dopamine receptor potentiation, how many of those people would benefit from selecting it (as opposed to SSRI'S)? Look at the drug cytadren - lowers cortisol and lowers testosterone as well as interfering with the natural estrogen/test balance. Is mirtazapine a better alternative in combination with DHEA - ie lowers cortisol, raises test (if proven) AND keeps the mood of users stabilised? It is proven that over the lifespan of an average western adult, cortisol becomes an increasingly dominant hormone in the endocrine system, through long term stress conditioning. Ideally it should be 60-40 Dhea-Cortisol. That ratio can reverse from the 40's onward. The more cortisol produced, regardless of stressors, the more anxiety and insomnia -and yet more cortisol is produced in a deteriorating viscious circle. Exogenous DHEA taken alone, could certainly begin to redress that balance issue, but it's actual ability to suppress cortisol appears from published studies to be limited/questionable. A feedback issue might actually encourage cortisol production to rise to meet this new dhea challenge. Personally I reckon that most can be gained from direct, effective cortisol suppression combined with DHEA. It is suggested that mirtazapine resets cortisol production/stress feedback at the level of the hypothalamus/pituitary. Potentially, that could gives the user the cortisol levels of someone in their early twenties combined with the DHEA levels of the same through oral admin. From personal experience with vitamin C, even at higher levels of 5g/day I don't believe it makes a major dent in cortisol production. I do think Rhodiola is more effective, though. The oral absorption rate of dhea is pitched at about 10 to 15%. To achieve an "38mg" daily production of a healthy young male is obviously going to require orals in the x100mgs range. Perhaps that's why Dr D's suggests no negative feedback under 500mg orals.
So, is it bizarre to hypothesise about drug and supplement combinations/interactions which are a little left field and don't guarantee massive gains in lean muscle with all the accompanying adjustments and maintenance? That depends on your viewpoint. I'm being open and honest about my experiences here, and I hope that generates some discussion. I've seen guys bleeding their hearts out on these forums after hitting the wall and resorting to ssri's, with plenty of support from their lifting community. I got high cortisol through stress conditioning, did something about it, and shared my experience. Hardly the work of a heretic, right?

 

[DR.D]

Hi guysNew to this forum but always pop in for a read. The Dr threads are great.i believe the trycyclic anti depressant Mirtazapine to be a growth agent. For the last year I suffered anxiety/mild depression and insomnia and gastro issues after a prolonged phase of working 14 hr days in construction. My docs refused to accept any other explanation other than depression, bar one who was a good listener and open to ideas. I agreed to try all the ssri's they prescribed and the sleeping pills too - none worked and most made me feel wired. My own research suggested adrenal issues and being much inclined to natural products, I put myself through a series of trials on various substances over 12 months - I had nothing to lose. It took that time to get a cortisol test from my local surgery (UK). The test is available ok, for free, but all but one of the docs I saw, claimed it was pointless - even one who specialises in cortisone injections! Sure enough, my cortisol was off the chart high.i had pre-empted this obvious revelation by hitting dhea at 100mg per breakfast and 50mg mid afternoon. My skin, energy, focus and physique all improved substantially as the dhea drove down my cortisol through an increase in sex hormone activity. Ironically, my high cortisol had not made me heavier but lighter and with much less fat - as it was always accompanied by adrenalin - symptom pounding heart day and night. Perhaps also, cortisol's suppression of T led to a dominance of E which in itself does not actually increase fat cell numbers but potentiates anxiety and insomnia. My testes were much larger and harder each morning and held their size over the day.i had been given MIRTAZAPINE by my doc at one point and used it on the odd day when sleep was vital - it is better than anything I have ever tried for that! I knew also, it was a sledgehammer for knocking down cortisol. Recently, I took it in conjunction with the DHEA. The effect was incredible. After 4 days use I went alpha male overnight. I have used plenty of aas cycles in the past, short and long, and I can tell you that the effect of dhea and 15mg Mirtazapine combined was psychologically far more powerful. Not just that, but my vascularity/pumped appearance was very notable. I felt stronger and über confident. I didn't walk faster, I walked slower...with real purpose. I noted that the rate of testicular shrinkage over the daily circadian rhythm was more pronounced (suggesting higher endogenous androgen levels), and I could control this by reducing the dose of dhea. It felt like a high dopamine mindset with the addition of strength and calm. The hangover associated with this drug disappeared after only two days and seemed to be caused by using dhea with it, for without - the day lag was heavy. Also, the dhea seemed to remove the excessive appetite associated with Mirtazapine and I wanted to eat meat constantly with the combo?!So... What is going on here? I actually want to do this again next week as it was such a good package - sleep, confidence, growth, mood, improvement in many functions. Is mirtazapine somehow potentiating the effects of dhea, or does it need dhea to maximise it's function? I would compare it, for me, to doing 40/50mg per day of dbol without the caffeine like symptoms, instead a calm and focused demeanour. My lifting felt really easy too. I appreciate everyone is different but I hope the merits of this personal experience are worth sharing.Nick

I've noticed some of these same things with Remeron. Appetite increase is profound and almost instant. Very potent sedative too, so it doesn't feel good until the next day, but it's an interesting alternative to tri- and tetra- cyclics for certain. I first got intrested in it while studying Pizotifen, a drug with a very similar structure and profile which is listed in the Merck as an anabolic. I thought it was odd that a benzocycloheptene structure would be in that therapeutic category! Anyway, anti-serotonergic and anti-histiminergic receptor interactions play a significant role in it's endocrine effects I'm convinced, but the blatant appetite increase is a sure mechanism for it's anabolic properties, lol.

 

[AnabolicHolic]

Personally I would not use any type of SSRI or anti-depressant ever for anything. If you need it to function normally? Then by all means.....but to lower cortisol or any of the other benefits? I'd just as soon use a natty cortisol reducing agent, or supplement with transdermal DHEA (both of which I have been doing recently, the cortisol suppression is cycled but the DHEA is constant). I know what these medications can do in regards to side effects and I would steer clear of them myself. But then again I do not have any mental condition that necessitates an SSRI or anti-depressant, although i do take valium or xanax "when needed" for anxiety....but I can usually manage w/o the benzos. I think these meds are for people with serious mental illness, and doctors like to prescribe them for anybody and everybody who is "anxious" or "depressed" and may not actually need an SSRI or anti-depressant. They are not candy, but they get prescribed as if they are.

 

[Sulor32]

Im interested what side effects do you get if you dont take DHEA with it...

 

[Andalucia]

Hi D, I'm back on it today after a week's break. I have reduced my morning DHEA dose from 150 to 75mg at 0900. The next dose is 75 at 1500. I slept right through last night. Can't remember falling asleep. Was slightly dazed and heavy on waking but when the dhea kicked in 30 mins later, there was no lag and I was eager to get working. I note my occasional backache is stronger - that would be the lower level of pain buffer of cortisol. Mood is already elevated and am certainly not morning irritable. My muscles are harder and slightly more pumped than yesterday - I know that sounds too soon, but it's true. I feel calm and centred and in control of my daily sh-t. Appetite is definitely up and my food tastes much better but I was satiated after a normal meal. Went for the chicken first though, when it's usually the carbs!
On the dhea alone, last week, I got no feedback hypertrophy up to 250mg. So let's see how it goes with the 75mg pulses this week and the mirtazapine. I'm tempted to throw in tyrosine to maximise the dopamine potentiation but I'll leave it a few days to monitor the combo effects first.

 

[Andalucia]

Hi Anabolic. Believe me, I know what you mean about docs handing out ssri's like candy. If they had measured my cortisol at the start, it could have saved me nearly 12 months of despair. I asked for the test, but only got it when I got a good doc who I will now stick with. High cortisol kept me awake, kept my heart pounding, gave me anxiety and mood swings. I never lost my hope or determination as I knew I was not a classic depression case and could literally feel stress hormones coursing through me even when I was enjoying the company of friends and good experiences. What I like about mirtazapine is that, for me, it is bringing everything back into line with some surprising and very welcomes sides. I would like to try transdermal dhea, as I'm sure the uptake is much improved and the metabolites of digestion avoided.
i have to ask, though it was never developed for this purpose, is mirtazapine a true anti-depressant - or are it's major effects coming from lowering cortisol to normal levels and increasing sex hormones? Certainly in trials on aged men and women, only 50mg dhea was able to restore a non existent circadian rhythm and lift the mood of subjects. I would love to see some trial evidence of mirtazapine on post menopausal women and post andropause men.

 

[DR.D]

Personally I would not use any type of SSRI or anti-depressant ever for anything. If you need it to function normally? Then by all means.....but to lower cortisol or any of the other benefits? I'd just as soon use a natty cortisol reducing agent, or supplement with transdermal DHEA (both of which I have been doing recently, the cortisol suppression is cycled but the DHEA is constant). I know what these medications can do in regards to side effects and I would steer clear of them myself. But then again I do not have any mental condition that necessitates an SSRI or anti-depressant, although i do take valium or xanax "when needed" for anxiety....but I can usually manage w/o the benzos. I think these meds are for people with serious mental illness, and doctors like to prescribe them for anybody and everybody who is "anxious" or "depressed" and may not actually need an SSRI or anti-depressant. They are not candy, but they get prescribed as if they are.

Yes, I agree with you that SSRIs are a poor choice for chronic use. Once one obtains the desired response, it's a good idea to stop use IME. The residual effect is nil for most serotonergics so they have little redeeming value beyond their acute, immediate effect. They might best be used situationally, like the way you utilize benzos.

Benzos are decent anti-corts too BTW, and Valium has been demonstrated to raises test levels. In fact, I used to employ a pinch of a benzo post-w/o to take advantage of this anti-cort benefit, as it seems to maximize recovery.

In defense of Remeron, it's not an SSRI. It's in an unusual class, with a dirty/extensive receptor profile like the old tricyclics but without the anti-cholinergic sides. Nevertheless, it has some unique effects that can be useful to the psychotropic connoisseur who also happens to be a bodybuilder.

 

[DR.D]

Hi D, I'm back on it today after a week's break. I have reduced my morning DHEA dose from 150 to 75mg at 0900. The next dose is 75 at 1500. I slept right through last night. Can't remember falling asleep. Was slightly dazed and heavy on waking but when the dhea kicked in 30 mins later, there was no lag and I was eager to get working. I note my occasional backache is stronger - that would be the lower level of pain buffer of cortisol. Mood is already elevated and am certainly not morning irritable. My muscles are harder and slightly more pumped than yesterday - I know that sounds too soon, but it's true. I feel calm and centred and in control of my daily sh-t. Appetite is definitely up and my food tastes much better but I was satiated after a normal meal. Went for the chicken first though, when it's usually the carbs!
On the dhea alone, last week, I got no feedback hypertrophy up to 250mg. So let's see how it goes with the 75mg pulses this week and the mirtazapine. I'm tempted to throw in tyrosine to maximise the dopamine potentiation but I'll leave it a few days to monitor the combo effects first.

You seem to be enjoying the cortisol suppression while fortifying your DHEA to compensate for the ATCH inhibition. Have you been in the past or are you currently a statin user?

I think people are generally drawn to the things that suit their unique physiological situation, and this appears to be doing the trick for you. With your meat cravings (or anti-carb preference) it definitely sounds like some specific dopamine sub-receptors are at work, so your Tyrosine idea might work. Could go either way, or may not have a signifigant effect at all, but you never know until you try.

When my doc was prescribing this compound to me, I noticed a very unusual effect I've never mentioned. I was having random memory recalls of seemingly unimportant events of the past. Things I hadn't thought of even one time ever, since the very time they occurred. Not intermittent memories like you occasionally get from smelling a forgotten fragrance, or seeing an old picture of someone you used to know, but things I hadn't thought of in 10 years since the second they happened. Very unusual, unpredictable, and in a ~10 year window only. It gave me the impression that literally EVERYTHING we experience is encoded into our mind. It's the way in which we recall the info that makes it seem like we only remember the important things, but it's all there somewhere. Perhaps our sub-conscience consists of all these things we know, but have forgotten that we know.

Anyway, I laughed at the time, thinking how those 5'th Avenue marketing boyz usually come up with the stupidest names for pills, but they named Remeron (remember on) very appropriately.

 

[Andalucia]

Just looking at some good controlled studies on SSRI's like Citalopram. They raise cortisol levels. There's also an instant and non diminishing release of oxytocin which may 'trick' the user into believing their serotonin is rising from day one when in fact they are feeling the comfort of a mating hormone lol. I'm beginning to think that serotonin gets far too much press, when it's balancing peer - dopamine - is rarely discussed. There was much talk of serotonin being at the core of club drug ecstacy's 'high' but I think, just like that warm feeling after your first JD of the night, it's got much more to do with dopamine.
Ssri performance was explained to me by a research psych. Through artificially produced recirculation in the brain, an adequate functional level of 5ht is sustained long enough to support the growth of new neuron cells specific to it's activity. Apparently these neurons are knocked out by stress and, once conditions are right, take around 4 weeks just to begin regenerating. I'd heard this regenerative activity has actually been visually recorded and presented by researchers. A hundred years ago, folks who could afford it, went off to a retreat in the mountains and sat on wicker sun loungers in forest clearings until they got better in 6 months to a year. What was actually happening was the removal of all stressors, combined with sunshine (vit d and circadian reinforcement) to allow the natural regeneration of conked out neurons. SSRI's basically create a serotonin recovery tank in your brain by buffering stress. By sheer serendipity, some of them also give dopamine activity a kick which doesn't seem to do any harm either.

 

[Andalucia]

D that is amazing you should mention the memory thing! Yes, it's been happening. Today it was some old school day. I could actually feel the memory, like it was happening again - the Police' Message In A Bottle was playing, I was on the street waiting for a bus. Just a random but acutely experienced memory. Damn, those were hopeful days lol. I would avoid statins like the plague but you are bang on the nail with the specific receptor issue. I had thought about that recently. It only takes one type to screw up, with a cascade of corresponding effects, odd as they may seem. I had read somewhere that cortisol plays a role in stored memory distribution. Rhodiola has been a good friend to me in the few months prior to sticking with mirtazapine for a week at a time. I've just switched brand and noted that there was a different taste in the root powder to this well regarded product. So I will check it out at the same dose soon. You mentioned taste/smell. Both rhodiola and mirtazapine have restored these senses to me when they were so long poorly functioning that I had little memorable reference to compare. So, again, this smacks of a dopamine issue. Some studies suggest that male depression can be dominated by dopamine deficit, and serotonin deficit for females. Dopamine takes longer to deplete and the decline is less detectable in it's early stages. The repletion is equally long, which may explain why women can crash suddenly into depression and bounce back the same way - in line with serotonin's boom/bust nature, while men take longer to heal.

 

[AnabolicHolic]

Hi Anabolic. Believe me, I know what you mean about docs handing out ssri's like candy. If they had measured my cortisol at the start, it could have saved me nearly 12 months of despair. I asked for the test, but only got it when I got a good doc who I will now stick with. High cortisol kept me awake, kept my heart pounding, gave me anxiety and mood swings. I never lost my hope or determination as I knew I was not a classic depression case and could literally feel stress hormones coursing through me even when I was enjoying the company of friends and good experiences. What I like about mirtazapine is that, for me, it is bringing everything back into line with some surprising and very welcomes sides. I would like to try transdermal dhea, as I'm sure the uptake is much improved and the metabolites of digestion avoided.
i have to ask, though it was never developed for this purpose, is mirtazapine a true anti-depressant - or are it's major effects coming from lowering cortisol to normal levels and increasing sex hormones? Certainly in trials on aged men and women, only 50mg dhea was able to restore a non existent circadian rhythm and lift the mood of subjects. I would love to see some trial evidence of mirtazapine on post menopausal women and post andropause men.

yeah this stuff does sound kind of complicated, I'm really not sure what to make of it. I suppose further controlled studies like you suggested are the only way to find out for sure. what usually happens is that a patient needs to try a half dozen or more meds to find out which one suits their needs, and has the best balance of sides to symptom relief....maybe this med is "the one" for you, since it does not have any bad sides (only good sides...for people like us who lift) and it also makes you feel better emotionally and mentally. Hey, some people don't respond to ANY of the meds they try...but these are usually the more severe and chronic cases.

 

[AnabolicHolic]

Anyway, I laughed at the time, thinking how those 5'th Avenue marketing boyz usually come up with the stupidest names for pills, but they named Remeron (remember on) very appropriately.

You're probably aware of how much money they get for simply naming these things. Pretty disgusting

 

[Andalucia]

Some results!

Hey Anabolic and Dr D. Sorry for the delay in responding. I decided to get some bloods done. It turns out Remeron is used (for some reason?) as a therapy for post menopausal women when estrogen is not appropriate, and for hot flushes in women cancer patients. RESULTS: My fsh is 30.7u/l - three times the normal upper limit for males. My oestradiol is mid normal range, progesterone is twice the upper limit, prolactin mid normal range, lh upper normal range. The idiots forgot to test my test and shbg and dhea so I will go back for more blood samples. There doesn't seem to be any problem with my testes as, if anything they have increased in size and there is no issue with their function. Interestingly, when all my problems started nearly a year ago, I noted they literally grew overnight by perhaps 50% like some sort of hormonal surge was taking place.
What do you think is going on here? Some kind of andropause, where the combined effects of dhea and mirtazapine are making up for the shortfall? I won't get a better picture until I get the rest of the bloods done.

 

[Jeffo]

I'd love to continue this and see if you've learned anything new, if any of you are still around a year later.

 

[Andalucia]

Hi Jeffo. Yes I can confirm for certain, that for me Mirtazapine is anabolic. After some time I came to the conclusion that it is the ability of this drug to tank cortisol which creates a vacuum filled by it's constant adversary - testosterone. In older men (over 40 I guess) the cortisol testosterone ratio is increasingly skewed in favour of cortisol. I noted that Poliquin used a novel trick to increase T in his clients - he used licorice to I double the half life of cortisol and the ensuing feedback produced a higher testosterone response. My best results with mirtazapine (which I use primarily as a sleep aid) is with cycling it, a few days use at a time and I only need a quarter pill in each case. It's anti histamine properties are incredible and that is an added anabolic bonus - histamine increases estrogen and cortisol. I cannot rule out also the dopamine enhancing properties of mirtazapine as a modulator of anabolic activity. I am aware that cortisol is necessary for hormone 'signalling' in the brain and tissues. I'm not worried that the mirtazapine drives it too low, it feels more that it is correcting a long term 'exaggerated' stress response associated with normal ageing. Hope this helps.

 

[Andalucia]

Oh - and in combination with DHEA taken in the morning and evening I get better results. DHEA lowers shbg, the effects of cortisol and provides material for hormone production. Everyone is different on dose. For me I find that 25mg is a sufficient dose. Higher, and I feel edgy and wound up which I attribute to the certain effects of estrogen. I confirmed this by taking arimidex simultaneously and was able to increase my dhea dose without those sides.

 

[Jeffo]

Cool. Thanks for the reply. I have to admit, that some of what you're saying seems like a stretch. You remind me of me, where I see things happening and attribute them to things that we just don't know for sure are happening. But you have a higher level of knowledge than I do. I think I can say that without you taking offense. Again, I appreciate you replying and am very interested in what you have to say.

I've had a long history of depression. I'm 49 now. In my later 20's, I could not recover from a workout, at all, after having been somewhat of an 'easy gainer' (how's that for a change?). I started with anti-depressants, a combo of a higher dose of tricyclic and low dose of Prozac, when I was about 30 and they helped enough that people thought I was using steroids. Later on, I switched from tricyclics to Remeron/mirtazapine. Even though I was very tired from it, I kept gaining. Whether it's anabolic or not, I can't say. But here's the thing: later on I became extremely sensitive to anything that affects norepinephrine (sp?) and it's awful for me. So I can only take about 3.75mg of Remeron and that's it now. I can go higher for a few days, but no longer than that. DHEA also makes me anxious. (I have a thread on TRT/testosterone and anxiety that nobody has replied to and I'm dying to hear from people about it.) But I'm trying your idea anyway just because I like experimenting. Remeron is by prescription of course. So today I took a part of a 25mg capsule of DHEA to start. I'm overstimulated right now from the testosterone I just started a week ago, so I can't do much.

I was surprised that Remeron would increase coritsol. Mine is pretty low, to my surprise, because when I'm more anxious/overstimulated (it's as much physical as anything else--I'm bipolar) it feels like there is way too much of something whether it's adrenaline, cortisol or whatever. So what do you think about how Remeron affects norepiniphrine? I wonder if that is stimulating for you and helping you out. I also take Celexa, Lamictal, Inderal and Klonopin, the latter I'm trying to reduce but it takes forever. So that complicates things, but when I raise the Remeron, I can tell what it's doing.

That's just the short story, but I wanted to see what you think and if your ideas are still the same.

 

[Andalucia]

Jeffo - no offence taken
The first thing that springs to mind is dopamine. Is it possible that your own dopamine production or sensitivity waned, for genetic or other reasons? Dopamine plays a big role in testosterone modulation. It's also the neurotransmitter of sex drive and energy. Too many docs are prescribing ssri or snri drugs for symptoms of depression or loss of drive - dopamine and gaba are two very much overlooked players in male depression.
I know what you mean about the norepinephrine and it is part of the reason I cycle my mirtz. There are definitely drugs out that that deal with dopamine. A nice self test - have a few drinks and if you are not getting that beer buzz you used to, dopamine may be in short supply. You can order a very, very effective supplement called Macuna Pruriens on Amazon etc. Most brands report a 15% l-dopa content in their refined mucuna. I know of one manufacturer who supplies a brand on Amazon that is 90% plus. I have just ordered the standard herbal version and will test it this week.
Another thing you should consider is GABA. There is an amazing drug called Baclofen which increases gaba receptor numbers and sensitivity. It was originally designed for pain management exploiting the analgesic qualities of gaba in the brain. However, it was discovered by accident that alcoholics using the drug were being cured of their alcoholism - including a US surgeon who wrote a book about it. Baclofen is also great for pct. It prevents aromatisation via a novel mechanism and also drives down prolactin. I have used baclofen and it gave me a profound sense of confidence, almost indifference. Gaba seems to have androgenic qualities psychologically, so I'm certain it has a relationship with testosterone also.
That over-stim feeling you get from the mirtz induced norepinephrine is not what you need. If it was me, I would head down the dopamine route first and try out mucuna. As for anxiety, yes low dopamine will leave you open to that - but estrogen is very often the culprit in hormone based maladies. Estradiol is actually capable of driving fat levels down in some males, despite the 'belly/water retention' consensus. A large sub group of females in their 30's and 40's suffer from anxiety, depression and insomnia directly attributed to excessive estrogen. Interestingly, many report LOSING weight - likely from a dominant sympathetic nervous system. You can control E ruthlessly with arimidex and it works really fast in my experience. However, I have also found DIM in the right dose to be very effective with some additional benefits.
Finally, consider if you may have a yeast problem? Candida can spread through the gut in vulnerable individuals. Other signs are fungal nail infections, tooth infections. The yeast keeps bacteria suppressed so that other normal infections never occur, making the individual believe they are healthy otherwise. Candida makes huge quantities of an estrogen almost bio identical to our own. The result can be raised SHBG as the body tries to soak it up, which consequently lowers testosterone in the process. Histamine is another by product. Both E and H create anxiety via different pathways.

 

[Jeffo]

I've taken Baclofen as a muscle relaxant for pain and it made me throw up, and that doesn't happen very easily for me. I also have a lot of Baclofen in my lumbar pain pump (after two failed back surgeries) and it hasn't done anything except make me more tired.

Wouldn't GABA just be a poor man's benzo? I'm already on a high dose of Klonopin that I'm trying to lower. It will take forever for me to get it down to even a lower dose.

My estradiol is at the low end of normal, with test being way down at 125 or so.

I don't know about yeast infection, but I did go gluten free and it helped quite a bit. I also take probiotics.

I've tried dopamine drugs in the past, like the one for restless leg syndrome--can't remember the name of it--and it produced fairly bad nausea. Seems there was another one with the same result. I've taken so many, it's hard to remember the ones I only took for a short time. I'm curious about that supplement you mention though.

 

[Andalucia]

Ok so GABA is apparently not your issue. My bro is on it for back pain and it really agrees with him. However, I know it's hit and miss with drugs, likely due to the specificity of their actions. As you've tested some dopa drugs with little success, that would leave serotonin ( which is a pro-inflammatory and badly misunderstood chemical), PEA, endo opiates, maybe something like oxytocin. Bear in mind that initial symptoms can be expected with most neuro drugs - a combined effect of the surge in the respective neurotransmitter and overwhelmed low number receptors. It takes at least two weeks before the first new receptors begin to form, and that is the hardest part to get through. There's a magic bullet out there somewhere... If you don't mind me asking have you smoked any herbal product for your pain relief?
Re your klonopan withdrawal - read this for a master class in the benefits of niacinamide:
http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/03/20/ray-peat-phd-on-therapeutic-effect-of-niacinamide/
Did you get your shbg level checked at the same time as your other endo tests?

 

[Andalucia]

My niacinamide dose is 3g spread over a day. As Peat says, this is much more than a simple 'B' vitamin. It must be niacinamide or nicotinamide though - niacin (the flush kind) has the OPPOSITE effect.
Here's a brilliant post by a fella called 'Haidut' on another forum:

"I will digress a little before I answer the question. Hopefully my digression will help answer future questions about RP recommendations. Just to keep you interested in my rant I will say this - niacinamide actually lowers serotonin, or at least acts an antagonist to it. More on that towards the end of my rant I have read all of Peat's books and articles, and I regularly scour PubMed and all sorts of medical news sources. After doing that for several years a clear trend began to emerge. Most of the supplements/vitamins RP recommends have multiple modes of action, all consistent with Ray's ideas. This is opposed to pharma drugs, wich typically have a very specific (preferably one) mode of action and end up destroying the balance in the body.
For instance Vitamin E is a direct estrogen receptor antagonist, and directly lowers levels of estrogen in the body. I know Ray does not believe in the receptor theories and he talks mostly about how vitamin E acts in ways approximately opposite to estrogen. Be that as it may Vitamin E seems to not just negate the effects of estrogen but also directly lowers it:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22964476
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22389237
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2753525/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16091003

From one of the studies above:
"...Serum E2 levels were significantly reduced by the treatment with 0.5% γ-TmT."

Btw, the estrogen reduction mention above was about 65% compared to controls.

In addition, Vitamin E and zinc also lower prolactin:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1490755
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2753470

This would explain the raging libido boost I get from taking some zinc, tocopherol, and vitamin B6. It truly makes you feel like you are back in high school

Same with magnesium, sodium, aspirin, etc. - i.e. they all have similar effects via multiple pathways and they all have studies about them that they all lower simultaneously estrogen, prolactin, serotonin, PTH, TSH, etc. In other words, it seems that every supplements Ray talks about has studies about it showing it reduces multiple "bad" metabolic markers that according to Peat need to be minimized/reduced somehow.
As far as I am concerned, this is a major evidence in favor of Peat's ideas. When a substance acts consistently via multiple pathways, many of which have confirmed beneficial effects, chances are the theory behind it is correct.
So, rule of thumb for future questions related to supplements suggested by RP. If you read somewhere about supplement X reducing something bad (say prolactin) go on Pubmed and do a search of that substance and all other "bad" things that RP warns about. You will see that in the majority of cases there will be studies about that substance X reducing other bad metabolic markers such as estrogen, serotonin, interleukins, NO, CO, etc.
For example, search Pubmed for "aspirin prolactin", "aspirin estrogen", "aspirin serotonin" and you will see what results you get.
Case in point. I stumbled on this gem while doing the exact same thing. I was interested in how niacinamide helps with inflammatory conditions such as rheumatoid arthritis and psoriasis, and protects against radiation damage and immunosuppression. After doing some reading on Pubmed, I found this old article:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/13602793

I emailed it to RP and he liked it a low, and he updated his website to include it as a reference to one of his older articles posted there. For those of you who don't have access to the full study - the doses used in the study were pretty high.The study was done with mice and the dosage was as follows:
To completely antagonize high serotonin - 1300mg/kg in mice, HED 93mg/kg.
To completely antagonize moderate serotonin - 800mg/kg in mice, HED 57mg/kg.

So, as you can see to antagonize serotonin completely you'd need a dose of about 100mg/kg for a human. That's in the range 7g-9g a day, and is close to the doses used by Hoffer et al. to treat mental disorders and cancer.
NOTE: This is applicable for niacinamide/nicotinamide only. As you all know, plain niacin and other varieties such as inositol hexanicotinate actually increases serotonin and histamine.

Finally, another rule of thumb (mine): If you interested in whether a specific supplement you've heard about it is good or bad and RP's website and interviews have no information about it - do a quick search on Pubmed for the supplement and the keywords "estrogen" or "serotonin". So if the supplement you are interested in is "supervitamin" then to a search for "supervitamin estrogen" or "supervitamin serotonin". It seems that estrogen and serotonin are such broadly acting substances that almost anything you introduce into your body (food or supplements) will tilt the scale for these two in one direction (high: pro-stress) or the other (low: anti-stress). Based on the results you'll know what the answer is. Anything that increases one or both of these two master metabolic murderers is not worth ingesting.

Well, hopefully my rant answers the direct question, and gives direction on future questions.
Pardon my verbosity, but I get really excited when I feel like I am starting to get the big picture of RP's ideas and how every supplement he mentions fits in there"

 

[Jeffo]

OK, slow down a bit there, sonny. I'm not fast enough to keep up with you. First of all, I didn't get SHBG tested. Second of all, I have a prescription for oxycodone (Percoset) that I need to take because my pain pump doesn't work as well as expected. That's part of the reason my test is low, most likely, but the pump is even more of a factor because it was fine before that. I had bad anxiety and depression before that, so the extra anxiety from the test is just way out there. Oxy... and weight training don't mix very well. Ask Tony Mandarich (interesting 10 min. story he tells of his football career on YT).

The Celexa/Lexapro that I take is an SSRI basically. I've tried lowering that with disastrous results. I really do need it. It wasn't withdrawal because it was slower than I've ever lowered anything. Next I'm going to try lowering the Lamictal, an anti-convulsant (sp?).

I might have some Nianicimide here from when I was trying to lower cholesterol naturally. (I do take a statin btw. Didn't notice anything when I started taking it. Very benign.) But I haven't read all of the stuff in your previous post.

I don't ever do any illegal drugs (really). So any other more exotic supplements are out of the question. I mainly want to know why this test. is making me anxious, in addition to discussing Remeron. Not that I don't want the other info. you're giving me which I will look into. As far as why I've had this lifelong battle with depression and anxiety, I just need to cope with it, because me and my sister have been looking for a solution for decades. Some things are genetic, but hopefully somebody will figure it out someday.

Now, who is Peat and RP? Pete and Repeat? ha But seriously, they were mentioned and I just saw the name in that one link.

 

[Andalucia]

Ray Peat is probably the smartest endo on the planet. A researcher of 30 years, a practising physician and a lecturer in endo science in US and Mexican universities. You can find a full body of his published work here:
Www.raypeat.com
Warning - his ideas become addictive.
Yes, I know what you mean about the Celexa - I know several folks who can't do without it. There seem to be two age thresholds for these genetic depressive issues to emerge - around the 20 and 40 years marks. If you are interested, this radio interview on the treatment of depression using aminos with Dr Dan Kalish is wel worth listening to:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/undergroundwellness/2011/12/02/brain-drain-with-dr-dan-kalish

I mentioned smoking, because in the areas where it is legit, it is proving highly effective for some with depression AND ptsd, as well as pain of course.
Good luck!

 

[Jeffo]

Thank you so much for the information. I really appreciate the discussion and hope we can still correspond. I'm not in an area where smoking is legit, but if it was medically, and there was a different delivery system, I might be open to it.

 

[Jeffo]

I read Haidut's post more carefully. Regarding my anxiety and pain after adding exogenous testosterone: maybe you've been trying to tell me this and I just didn't understand it, but could it be throwing off what Celexa does, or Klonipin? Let's say it's Klonopin. What I would have to do is raise it (which would mess up my lowering it), but then once I get accustomed to it, then I can work on lowering it again. I'm taking the highest dose of Celexa. I don't know if it's worth it to work through all of my medications like this or not. I don't think that it's causing any of them to go to high, unless it was Lamictal. What little I'm finding talks about estrogen, but at this point, I just don't think that's the issue. The test causes anxiety within 2-3 hours after it goes in me, whether by gel or injection. Same with DHEA.

BTW I have inositol. Ben Pakulski said it's good for sleep (no, I don't know him personally) because it lowers cortisol. Since I assumed my cortisol is high--but it's actually low as mentioned in a previous post--I tried it, but it made me feel worse. It's something I have though. So far the higher Remeron and adding DHEA isn't a good thing for me, although it's only been a day.

 

[Jeffo]

Could you help me understand this?
"testosterone is a modulator of GABAA receptors and inhibits 5-HT3 receptors centrally"
Won't let me give the link yet, but it's at NCBI pubmed 24047633.
What does modulator mean and how might this affect benzos and SSRIs?

 

[DR.D]

Hey Anda! How have you been? Jeff has some good points regarding GABA and serotonergic involvement, but as we've discussed before Remeron activates so many receptors it hard to pinpoint. I still suspect histaminergic sub-receptor involvement may offer some clues in your case.

Aren't you concerned with high dose nicotinamide and Sirt-1 inhibition (the IL-1b implications)? Especially stacked with DHEA, but yet experiencing such positive results, it makes me consider that you may have some latent infection that's put you into a hard Th-2 expression. Have you ever had mono, or hep, or fairly recent vaccinations, or anything like that?

It also suggests robust NMDA activity which doesn't seem likely when depressed, or minimal GABAnergic modulation based on your anxiety responses to various compounds. It's not a bad thing per say, but it can cause issues long-term with sleep quality, libido, etc.. Have you ever taken Ginkgo?

 

[Andalucia]

Hey D -I'm not overly worried about sirt1 suppression if there are other anti-inflammatory agents at work in the body ie strong antioxidant activity. I think it's an interesting concept and I should bounce it off RP, although I thin it here may have been a discussion about just this on one of his dedicated forums. I'm going to look into it now

Jeffo - testosterone will give guys a grounded, centred feeling as opposed to the emotional roller coaster of estrogen. Beer is highly estrogenic and the reason why guys who drink it get bellies, flushed faces and emotional. Girls picking hops in the fields last century were sexually maturing two years early because of the estrogen being absorbed through their skin. I would compare T more to coffee - alert, ready, focused stabilised
If you have been riding an estrogen train for some years then the adaptation phase to T wil not be easy. First, the body will fight back as it has already adapted itself to the hormone shift. So it will spike E where and when it can after your shot. The systems that regulate your emotions will have to change as T becomes the dominant hormone once again. Remember, receptors take at least two weeks just to begin proliferating so prior to this and perhaps as along as a month there will be a crucible of feedback activity and resets which may not feel too pleasant! If you are getting symptoms within 2 to 3 hours I would strongly suspect estrogen rebound. I have experienced this with arimidex when using it - my body fights back hard at 10 and 20 hours and is so efficient at a liver level that I metabolise the drug completely around the 24 hour mark. Are you using, or can you get an AI?
How is your liver function???? If you are a super metaboliser like me, then you will have more problems in the beginning when trying to stabilise hormone levels. I believe Ozzy Oxbourne may be a super metaboliser as I read somewhere it was the explanation for his ability to drink so much and survive! One member of my family drinks a bottle of red wine a day, is 70 and has a perfect liver - it really threw the docs when they saw the results! He is also in good health. Go figure. Just a cursory look at the All Things Male forum and some clever guys like Chillin are talking about a sub group of trt users who will have to take 2 or 3 times the amount of drugs to achieve the same effect as the majority of patients because their livers metabolise drugs so quickly. Putting this into a neurotransmitter context - I wonder if your body can EVER keep up with the metabolism of its own hormones sufficient to keep your mood stable and elevated? There is a gene I will have to look up whose encoding controls this process and it's not an uncommon expression in western populations. I have personally experienced a sudden shortfall of the likes of dopamine which came as quite a surprise - like temporarily going through a black hole - I attribute that to my body's inability to keep up with demand. I'm naturally an energy expender, always on the go.
Estrogen is strongly associated with serotonin and serotonin is in my opinion a stress hormone with pro inflammatory effects. I have to wonder, do sssri drugs work by raising serotonin levels long term OR overwhelming the serotonin system temporarily to a point that it actually down regulates? That might seem crude - but do the makers of Prozac actually know how it works? They do know that it has a suicide rate of one per £200,000 sales. Niacinamide suppresses overactive serotonin activity around the 3g mark. Yet, it is actually curing the anxiety and depression of many people - worth a little research on the web.
At some point in your trials and errors is a commitment phase were you will have to take the rough with the smooth - just to know for certain which drug is right for you. If you are prescribed T don't assume it will be smooth, and I know you are aware of this already. Do you work closely with your physician? Like I said, seeing shbg levels is going to tell you a lot. Shbg is an adaptive mechanism. Mine was at 83 at one point! I tanked that with 15mg of stanozolol a day - only to get gyno. That told me shbg was trying to suppress E and taking my free T down with it. Possibly, with a 'super liver' aromatase activity is much higher than normal.

 

[Andalucia]

Re SIRT1 - nice thread re niacinamide.
http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3421

 

[Andalucia]

D - I think you touched on an interesting nerve earlier - histamine. Estrogen is a major promoter of histamine. Histamine can produce, as well as allergies, anxiety in susceptible individuals and even chest pain. I definitely feel relief after taking an anti-histamine, but a lingering edgy feeling remains and I attribute that directly to estrogen. I can remove that edgy feeling with Adex. Notably, when I take Adex, I don't get any histamine issues.... A few months ago I discovered I could get a full nights sleep with a quarter Adex and 2 x piriton tabs. I'm currently using DIM and it is bringing some satisfying results. My mood is much better, I'm more relaxed, have more energy and I'm sleeping better. It is giving me that same physical effect as Adex - my boys increase in size and stay there.
Is Adex only dealing with E2? Because I suspect that a lot of issues in older guys are not caused directly by E2 but by the ensuing E metabolites - which DIM mops up. These metabolites may not have physical effects like water retention, but instead psych effects like anxiety and depression and insomnia?

 

[Jeffo]

It also suggests robust NMDA activity which doesn't seem likely when depressed, or minimal GABAnergic modulation based on your anxiety responses to various compounds. It's not a bad thing per say, but it can cause issues long-term with sleep quality, libido, etc.. Have you ever taken Ginkgo?

You're still talking to Anda here, right?

 

[Jeffo]

Top replying here. I'm not sure what AI is, so I don't think I've tried that. My liver function is fine even when I'm taking acetaminophen that's in the Percoset, a statin and whatever else. I seem to metabolize meds very fast. Things that are supposed to last x hours only last a fraction. On the other hand, I'm super sensitive to most things, but not all. I could be taking more Celexa if it weren't for some people who had a heart attack on it and they lowered the max. But then as I mentioned, I can't take much Remeron at all, or anything that affect epinephrine.

I'm not working closely with my doc unfortunately. He does something, and then see him in three months. I was going to change for sure when I thought he wouldn't let me self inject, but I was able to convince him. I still think I'd like to switch, but have no idea how to find one, and especially find one who has dealt with anxiety, which of course isn't 'supposed' to happen. How many times have I heard that.

I'll see how things are at two weeks, although the test will be dropping quite a bit. And then a week after the next injection. But I never did get used to the normal amount of Androgel. I'm determined to make this work though. I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. I just want to feel a little better. I know there isn't a cure for my condition.

I am gaining weight and my paltry workouts are going very well, so it's doing something. I'm in anabolic rebound right now though so it's easy to gain muscle back.

Hey D -I'm not overly worried about sirt1 suppression if there are other anti-inflammatory agents at work in the body ie strong antioxidant activity. I think it's an interesting concept and I should bounce it off RP, although I thin it here may have been a discussion about just this on one of his dedicated forums. I'm going to look into it now

Jeffo - testosterone will give guys a grounded, centred feeling as opposed to the emotional roller coaster of estrogen. Beer is highly estrogenic and the reason why guys who drink it get bellies, flushed faces and emotional. Girls picking hops in the fields last century were sexually maturing two years early because of the estrogen being absorbed through their skin. I would compare T more to coffee - alert, ready, focused stabilised
If you have been riding an estrogen train for some years then the adaptation phase to T wil not be easy. First, the body will fight back as it has already adapted itself to the hormone shift. So it will spike E where and when it can after your shot. The systems that regulate your emotions will have to change as T becomes the dominant hormone once again. Remember, receptors take at least two weeks just to begin proliferating so prior to this and perhaps as along as a month there will be a crucible of feedback activity and resets which may not feel too pleasant! If you are getting symptoms within 2 to 3 hours I would strongly suspect estrogen rebound. I have experienced this with arimidex when using it - my body fights back hard at 10 and 20 hours and is so efficient at a liver level that I metabolise the drug completely around the 24 hour mark. Are you using, or can you get an AI?
How is your liver function???? If you are a super metaboliser like me, then you will have more problems in the beginning when trying to stabilise hormone levels. I believe Ozzy Oxbourne may be a super metaboliser as I read somewhere it was the explanation for his ability to drink so much and survive! One member of my family drinks a bottle of red wine a day, is 70 and has a perfect liver - it really threw the docs when they saw the results! He is also in good health. Go figure. Just a cursory look at the All Things Male forum and some clever guys like Chillin are talking about a sub group of trt users who will have to take 2 or 3 times the amount of drugs to achieve the same effect as the majority of patients because their livers metabolise drugs so quickly. Putting this into a neurotransmitter context - I wonder if your body can EVER keep up with the metabolism of its own hormones sufficient to keep your mood stable and elevated? There is a gene I will have to look up whose encoding controls this process and it's not an uncommon expression in western populations. I have personally experienced a sudden shortfall of the likes of dopamine which came as quite a surprise - like temporarily going through a black hole - I attribute that to my body's inability to keep up with demand. I'm naturally an energy expender, always on the go.
Estrogen is strongly associated with serotonin and serotonin is in my opinion a stress hormone with pro inflammatory effects. I have to wonder, do sssri drugs work by raising serotonin levels long term OR overwhelming the serotonin system temporarily to a point that it actually down regulates? That might seem crude - but do the makers of Prozac actually know how it works? They do know that it has a suicide rate of one per £200,000 sales. Niacinamide suppresses overactive serotonin activity around the 3g mark. Yet, it is actually curing the anxiety and depression of many people - worth a little research on the web.
At some point in your trials and errors is a commitment phase were you will have to take the rough with the smooth - just to know for certain which drug is right for you. If you are prescribed T don't assume it will be smooth, and I know you are aware of this already. Do you work closely with your physician? Like I said, seeing shbg levels is going to tell you a lot. Shbg is an adaptive mechanism. Mine was at 83 at one point! I tanked that with 15mg of stanozolol a day - only to get gyno. That told me shbg was trying to suppress E and taking my free T down with it. Possibly, with a 'super liver' aromatase activity is much higher than normal.

 

[Andalucia]

Jeffo you are on the right track fella. This may be of interest to you. Dopamine boosts T. T boosts dopamine. However, if you are depleted in dopamine and therefore likely to have diminished receptor numbers for the same, T may not be enough to bring that dopamine back up, at least in the short term. Parkinson's is a classic dopamine deficient state. It is not confined to the old, in fact there are a sub group known as 'young Parkinson's' - guys in their 30's and 40's. It's not a death sentence and I note many improving in the right conditions. Anyway - look at the symptoms - loss of smell, leg cramps, chronic lower back pain, diminished T, fatigue especially after exercise, particular food cravings, especially at night, sleep problems, depression, anxiety. Dan Kalish talks in detail about dopamine in that broadcast I linked you. A simple dopamine deficiency or inefficiency must surely resemble a sub clinical form of Parkinson's?
I got my mucuna pruriens supp today - Mucuna Dopa by Source Naturals c/o amazon. Turns out each cap has 100mg dopa equivalent. That is HIGH potency. Yet the studies out there talk about 5g doses! My bottle says a couple a day?! So this morning I took 2 caps. Wow!!!!! I just felt really energised and my mood elevated. I am doing an attic conversion at the moment and I was working full tilt plus 50% after the mucuna! It lasted about 3 hours then faded quickly. Now my research tells me that if you are deficient in a neurotransmitter then supplying the raw material will produce a feeling of normality followed by a crash because the body still has a net deficit (Julia Ross talks about this in her book The a mood Cure). Over time the benefit smooths out as the body stores more and develops an efficiency in handling it. This afternoon I took 2 caps and this is a good day! Even if I do ten caps, it's only 20% of the study dose. Another effect I noticed is that my body temperature rose, and my skin looked much healthier - flushed. I also felt quite 'pumped.' So, this natural supp has got to be worth a try? Looking at feedback and other sources, it appears that the 'natural' presentation of l dopa via Mucuna is metabolically superior and longer lasting with minimal sides compared to actual refined l-dopa.

 

[Jeffo]

It sure seems like dopamine would benefit me. What I've tried in the past didn't, but there were also bad side effects. I used to take Effexor, which works on all three, and dopamine at high doses, which I was taking. It worked for a while, but I was undiagnosed as bipolar and many ADs poop out after a while, which happened to me big time. Celexa is one of the only ones that doesn't bother me. I don't have much money for supplements, but again, I will definitely look into it. Thanks.

 

[Andalucia]

Ok Jeffo. I think a bottle of 120 is about 16 bucks. I live in Ireland which is a big version of Treasure Island - ie supps are imported and often way more expensive here! If you want Julia Ross' book (which also has a trt chapter) PM me and you can have my copy for free. Information is worth nothing unless its shared I reckon

 

[mexecutioner]

Andalucia, I am curious to what digestive symptoms you used to have before you started using Mirtazapine. I myself have battled with digestive issues for years and was wondering what degree of success you've had with Mirtazapine in regards to digestion issues. I am looking into Mirtaszapine for myself and would love your opinion on this.

 

[Jeffo]

I'm not who you're asking for, but I can say that it increases my appetite, which is typical for this med. I used to have a bad appetite and this helped. This is why some say that it makes you gain weight.