Thoughts on AAS/PH effects on gains. reps for good responces

[jbryand101b]

So, a newer member to the forum recently posted about his experience with epistane, and the great gains he accomplished. But, he posted in the supplement section, and some people called him a cheater, which led me to make this thread.
So my question to those who have used steroids or pro hormones, do you think you are cheating?


My thoughts: Steroids aren't magical substances that give you abilities you dont have. they simply are keys that unlock traits that are already there.

If you dont have it in your genetics to be a certain size, run so fast, be so strong, then it isn't going to happen.


And even on steroids, in order to have optimal results, you have to put in work, they do not do the work for you.

They dont eat the food, they dont lift the weights, they dont run the track, etc.


now, yes, they turn on genes that get things going, allowing you to get much more out of training than if you were not using them.


but in todays world, esp the world of high school and beyond of sports, if you're not using some sort of ergogenic aid, you're shooting yourself short, because most likely the competition is.


and this doesn't mean just because the competition is using steroids they will win, if they havn't put in the time and training, they most likely will still be weak, and slow.

I do believe if you are the only person in the competition using steroids, it's cheating.
thoughts?

 

[bill86]

as i said in that thread..... anything that is against the rules that gives you an advantage... is..... by definition.... cheatinghow many people have broken records while on steroids? it's ridiculous to say "if you don't have the genetics to do something, you won't be able to do it... but steroids turn on the genes that would otherwise not be able to be turned on". i just don't understand how people think that something that one cannot attain naturally, but can through steroids, is "natural" or "genetic"re: sports, like i said in the other post, i too think most people in sports are using, but that doesnt mean its not cheating. as i posted there.... Cheating: Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage... now when something is against the rules, but you do it anyway, and it gives you an advantage, that's cheating. i don't understand why people can't grasp that.further, no one of any intelligence has EVER argued that you can just take steroids, not workout, and get huge. NOR have they argued that you could do some for a year an all of a sudden become an IFBB pro. but they make it A LOT easier, and anyone that disagrees either a) is in denial, b) has horrendous genetics, or c) has no clue what they're doing.case in point... i have a friend that gained 20 lbs in 1 month on ph's with all of his lifts going through the roof and gaining very minimal body fat. so what was his routine? each body part once a week with at least 20 sets no matter what muscle group (including biceps, triceps, etc. so around 7 different lifts for just biceps, triceps, etc).... his diet.... well, he didn't like to cook, so he ate mcdonalds or burger king 3 times a day and probably got in about 2,500 calories. now obviously not everyone can do this, but its just a testament to how easy steroids make it for some people. anyone else who trained like that and ate like that wouldn't see **** for results in 1 month.another friend went from looking like he had never seen the inside of a gym to looking like an amateur bb'er at a lean 235 lbs in 1 year on injectibles. he was a bit better as far as training and diet, but his diet wasn't anything special. just ate whatever whenever, but not solely fast food.anyone that works out at golds gyms should know, if they're anything like they are around here, you've got about 85% of the guys on steroids (according to a trainer i know that works at the local one), and its NOTHING to see a guy doing bent over rows with 365 or benching 500+ weighing 280 lean. hell, i just saw a guy get 530 a few days ago who weighs in at about 230.now im not saying none of these people work hard or don't have great genetics, but the guys i know that have used have ALL said it makes lifting/gaining easier than anyone not using could imagine. my point was that steroids make things possible that neither your workouts, nor your diet, nor your equipment, nor your creatine or any "natural" supplement EVER could. my point in the other thread was also that the internet seems to be the only place where people claim steroids don't do much. as a matter of fact, i tried using that type of logic to argue with a friend (who uses steroids) that steroids aren't very useful unless you have EVERYTHING else down, and he literally laughed in my face.you referred to me as anti-steroid, which isn't true. yes, i'm anti-steroid in sports simply because it isn't allowed and therefore gives those that chose to follow the rules an unfair disadvantage. in bodybuilding, i dont care because everyone's on it, even dudes that compete in "natural" shows. as far as just trying to attain a certain physique in general, im far from "anti-steroid", i don't care WHAT anyone else does (except synthol, i think thats just stupid and looks ridiculous unless you're a pro and using it for a "trouble area"), and i'd probably be on them my damn self if i didn't have blood pressure issues/family history of cholesterol/heart attacks. the thing is, i'm just not going to deny how insanely effective they are when used properly.

 

[bill86]

and if i dont get reps for that..... you're just biased and were seeking justification for your own argument hahaha

 

[pyrobatt]

The problem lies within steroids don't allow you to stay +30 lbs when your off of them but 30 lbs difference makes a huge difference.

Sports won't kick you out for the physical signs of steroids/gh/ w/e.
I have some bad bacne *naturally* and have been accused of steroids when I wasn't on them nor a test booster. Sports will ignore patterend acne. Sports will ignore a huge gut from igf1. Sports will ignore weird bone growth like enlarged hands ect. All they can do is test you and where there is a test there's a way to cheat.

Do I think its cheating to use them in sports? Yes. You can push past your natural strenght or natural vo2 Max or natural size with them. You can keep the 30 lbs too but you need to take a bunch of stuff with it. *looks at pros who weigh 260+ and maintain later in life when they are off *

Although if you cease use your gains in strenght ect will go away in 6 months to a year. The problem lies not on the athletes but the way of testing is ....ineffective.

 

[bill86]

and why did my long message get all crammed together? i had separate paragraphs.... now no one is gonna read all that haha

 

[pyrobatt]

and why did my long message get all crammed together? i had separate paragraphs.... now no one is gonna read all that haha

I did

 

[bill86]

haha, thanks man

 

[FUBARMD]

Agreed

 

[Thatguy_603]

This is how I feel, use for self gratification/ better body = not cheating along as u are not trying to compete. Although everyone who competes is on something.

 

[Danb2285]

Do steroids make gains easier? IMO...No. Do steroids+a solid diet+ good rest/training program and dedication/knowledge make gains easier? Absolutely. But without everything in line and on track steroids are a waste IMO. I don't really look at it as cheating though. IMO steroids are a supplement just like anything else.

 

[FranARG]

Using any banned substance in certain sport is cheating. The thing is, society and the sport industry and even fans want bigger, faster, stronger athletes. The natural result is..well, you can see it for yourself haha

 

[jbryand101b]

and if i dont get reps for that..... you're just biased and were seeking justification for your own argument hahaha

reps for post, negs for no enter. (my enter key doesn't work for some reason on here either, so I have to d & p from notepad.)

 

[jbryand101b]

Using any banned substance in certain sport is cheating. The thing is, society and the sport industry and even fans want bigger, faster, stronger athletes. The natural result is..well, you can see it for yourself haha

there is a discovery channel doc on lance and the technology used for his equipment.

now, aside from him being one of practically all elite level cyclist who are using ergo genic aids, if you watch all that, it makes you wonder, why is that legal, but not other performance enhancers.

who's making these rules?

is it fair that someone with all the sponsors an budget can get the best scientific innovations to significantly make a difference, but someone else (even at the same level) may not have the sponsorship/budget to aquire?

 

[FranARG]

there is a discovery channel doc on lance and the technology used for his equipment.

now, aside from him being one of practically all elite level cyclist who are using ergo genic aids, if you watch all that, it makes you wonder, why is that legal, but not other performance enhancers.

who's making these rules?

is it fair that someone with all the sponsors an budget can get the best scientific innovations to significantly make a difference, but someone else (even at the same level) may not have the sponsorship/budget to aquire?

It seems unfair, but **** it haha, al big sports are unfair and very very money oriented. The team/athlete with more money usually has a definitive edge over *****s.

 

[stamp_on_kids]

If a musician uses illegal drugs to make better, more creative music, would you consider him a cheater? Hell no. Pro athletes and pro musicians are both entertainers, who cares what they do to improve their performance, they aren't heroes, they shouldnt be role models, they are simply doing something for entertainment.

Also, there are plently of people who take steroids who are fat or still rather small. They aren't miracle pills, you still have to put in the work and effort, not cheating imo

 

[stamp_on_kids]

It won't let me edit my post, but I should have said, it shouldn't be cheating.

 

[bill86]

i still don't understand how people can say it's not cheating when using the definition of the word "cheat". like i said, who cares if you use them for personal gains.... but i just go off personal experience and what ive seen. ive seen people who don't eat for ****, get drunk several nights a week, and have sub-par training TAKE OFF on steroids (especially injectibles). im talking, literally look like they had never seen the inside of a gym to looking like they could seriously compete in an amateur competition within 2 years. i've been working out for 12 years now, and ive seen people make the gains in 1 year on steroids that ive seen others, with much better diets and routines, make in 10 years. i realize genetics plays a major role, but when you see people workout naturally for 5, 8 years and know the gains they're capable of, then see that same person take steroids and make INSANE gains in a matter of weeks or months, it just goes to show what they can do for you.

i personally don't know anyone that competes or does it for any reason other than personal gratification, and these are normal, everyday dudes who generally eat like normal, every day dudes, but train hard. so after seeing those types of gains, i could only imagine how much crazier it would be if they were to eat like bodybuilders and train like them as well (theres a difference between training hard and training correctly, imo).

but like i said, i'm not "anti-steroid", i'd take them myself if i could, i just don't think HARDCORE users (by hardcore, i mean ones like we see on the internet who take it VERY seriously and treat it as a lifestyle as opposed to something they do) either want to or are willing to acknowledge how much they truly help. and yes, it does make me mad/frustrated when i have a WAY better diet, WAY better regimen and way better work ethic than someone else and they BLOW by me in a matter of months because they're on steroids. my only beef is people downplaying how well they work. like i said, no thinking person would say ANYONE could be an ifbb pro on steroids, but they do help A LOT.

 

[bill86]

and jbryan - respect on the neutral reps haha

 

[FranARG]

If a musician uses illegal drugs to make better, more creative music, would you consider him a cheater? Hell no. Pro athletes and pro musicians are both entertainers, who cares what they do to improve their performance, they aren't heroes, they shouldnt be role models, they are simply doing something for entertainment.

Also, there are plently of people who take steroids who are fat or still rather small. They aren't miracle pills, you still have to put in the work and effort, not cheating imo

Musicians dont make better music if on drugs like cocaine, marihuana, acid, etc. On the other hand, I cant think of an athlete that would not benefit from the correct use of steroids. Therefore, I think your analogy is not valid..

 

[bill86]

also... the music industry doesn't ban the use of drugs due to their ability to improve performance.

 

[Danb2285]

Musicians dont make better music if on drugs like cocaine, marihuana, acid, etc. On the other hand, I cant think of an athlete that would not benefit from the correct use of steroids. Therefore, I think your analogy is not valid..

Depends on who you ask. Lane stayley (spelling?!?) from Alice in chains once said he wrote some of best music while he was so fuked up he doesn't really remember writing them. This applies to Stevie ray Vaughn, Eric clapton, Jimi Hendrix, Brad nowell, Curt cobain and Scott Wylend. I'm sure none of those guys wrote music while "sober"

 

[Danb2285]

Depends on who you ask. Lane stayley (spelling?!?) from Alice in chains once said he wrote some of best music while he was so fuked up he doesn't really remember writing them. This applies to Stevie ray Vaughn, Eric clapton, Jimi Hendrix, Brad nowell, Curt cobain and Scott Wylend. I'm sure none of those guys wrote music while "sober"

Not sayin it's a valid point or isn't...just sayin lol

 

[stamp_on_kids]

Musicians dont make better music if on drugs like cocaine, marihuana, acid, etc.

No many musicians write music high, many comedians write material high, I guess whether its better can be opinon, but my point is, musicians make music for entertainment, athletes plays games for entertainment. If you found out your favorite band or artist used drugs, would you care? Probably not, I think most people wouldnt. Now if pro athletes are simply entertainers too, why should you care if they use drugs too? I think the difference is they are idolized differently.

Breaking the rules is a little trickery because you can't catch everyone so its not like the playing field is level anyway, anyway I just wanted to clarify my point.

 

[FranARG]

No many musicians write music high, many comedians write material high, I guess whether its better can be opinon, but my point is, musicians make music for entertainment, athletes plays games for entertainment. If you found out your favorite band or artist used drugs, would you care? Probably not, I think most people wouldnt. Now if pro athletes are simply entertainers too, why should you care if they use drugs too? I think the difference is they are idolized differently.

Breaking the rules is a little trickery because you can't catch everyone so its not like the playing field is level anyway, anyway I just wanted to clarify my point.

I know what you are saying, but there is not the same conection between being high and writing music, and doing AAS and practicing a sport. AAS have a direct impact, 100% of cases, in athletes. Being high does not.
For instance: If you take an average joe, and put him on AAS, he WILL have a better athletic performance, no matter the case. But, if you put, lets say ME, on acid or coke or marihuana, I will certainly not improve my music skills.
The relation between geting high and making music is by far not as strong as the relation between AAS and athletics.

PD: sorry for my possible grammar mistakes, english is not my first language.

 

[bill86]

how has this debate gotten so off track with such an absurd analogy?!

 

[FranARG]

Little Stampy went down that road

 

[bill86]

here's another point of view/food for thought.

think of ALL the bodybuilders you know that are natural, not guys that just CLAIM to be natural, but guys (maybe in your personal lives) that you KNOW to be natural. then compare that to all the bodybuilders you know to be juicing. the reason i say bodybuilders is because they all treat it as a lifestyle and they all take it equally as serious (in most cases). the difference is that truly natural dudes are competing at like 50 all the way up to nearly 100 pounds less than the steroid using guys of similar stature.

 

[jbryand101b]

I know what you are saying, but there is not the same conection between being high and writing music, and doing AAS and practicing a sport. AAS have a direct impact, 100% of cases, in athletes. Being high does not.
For instance: If you take an average joe, and put him on AAS, he WILL have a better athletic performance, no matter the case. But, if you put, lets say ME, on acid or coke or marihuana, I will certainly not improve my music skills.
The relation between geting high and making music is by far not as strong as the relation between AAS and athletics.

PD: sorry for my possible grammar mistakes, english is not my first language.

I have to agree on this. steroids are ergogenic enhancers, this is undisputed. when I was in highschool, I had dreams of trying to go semi pro with street skateboarding, started smoking weed, and boy did I get sucky at sk8ing fast, and eventually quitting.

 

[FranARG]

Haha instead of smoking a joint you should have done a good cycle..

 

[jbryand101b]

here's another point of view/food for thought.

think of ALL the bodybuilders you know that are natural, not guys that just CLAIM to be natural, but guys (maybe in your personal lives) that you KNOW to be natural. then compare that to all the bodybuilders you know to be juicing. the reason i say bodybuilders is because they all treat it as a lifestyle and they all take it equally as serious (in most cases). the difference is that truly natural dudes are competing at like 50 all the way up to nearly 100 pounds less than the steroid using guys of similar stature.

I can agree. but the npc is untested, and there are big dudes, any ways, though my pops prob should be on hrt, he competed up until he was 55, and though the competition is slim in the senior master division, he still got first over others which im sure some where on hrt or juice.

 

[jbryand101b]

Haha instead of smoking a joint you should have done a good cycle..

for sure.

 

[bill86]

I can agree. but the npc is untested, and there are big dudes, any ways, though my pops prob should be on hrt, he competed up until he was 55, and though the competition is slim in the senior master division, he still got first over others which im sure some where on hrt or juice.

oh yeah, i definitely agree with that. i just used the example of bodybuilders because i feel like whether natural or not, they all pretty much have the same work ethic, there just tends to be a big difference in average size and all that.

i'm the type that thinks everyones using, though, haha. i mean, while i'll argue their effectiveness all day long, there have been TONS of guys i've seen talking about the cycle of superdrol they just took and stuff like that and they seriously look as though they've been working out for like 6 months total haha. my friends all say im delusional, but i've gotten to where i think everyone is using after hearing the douchebag kids that have only been working out for a month and wouldn't know what a real routine or diet was if it hit them in the face talking about, "yeah, i think i'm going to try winstrol, it sounds like the perfect steroid for me" in the middle of the gym like they think it makes them cool.

but i guess that goes back to what you were saying.... you can't take steroids and expect awesome gains if you don't know what you're doing.... and while it's bad of me to say, as someone who has horrible genetics but puts in lots of work and dedication (but can't/shouldn't use steroids because of personal/family issues with blood pressure, cholesterol, etc despite wanting to use them), theres a bit of satisfaction i get in seeing kids that have damn near passed me up lose it all when they come off because they're too damn young and dumb to know what they're doing. they get all jacked up and big headed walking around looking at me like i don't know what i'm doing in the gym because i can't put on 40 lbs in 6 months like them..... and yes.... i would admit i'm bitter about it hahaha

 

[ITW]

"Holier than thou" white knights aggravate me. You're really that concerned about a given athlete on PEDs? Let alone the average joe looking for an edge...shows how much you have going on in your life...

 

[stamp_on_kids]

I know what you are saying, but there is not the same conection between being high and writing music, and doing AAS and practicing a sport. AAS have a direct impact, 100% of cases, in athletes. Being high does not.
For instance: If you take an average joe, and put him on AAS, he WILL have a better athletic performance, no matter the case. But, if you put, lets say ME, on acid or coke or marihuana, I will certainly not improve my music skills.
The relation between geting high and making music is by far not as strong as the relation between AAS and athletics.

PD: sorry for my possible grammar mistakes, english is not my first language.

You are really ignoring my argument I suppose because you are just trying to be right. So I will try one last time to explain it, if athletes play sports for entertainment,.why do you care if they take a drug to enhance the entrainment value? (Please don't respond talking about musicians and drugs, as I said in my reply that wasn't the point i was trying to make)

Another question. Isn't technology the same thing? If a tennis player could use aas and a racket from the 1970s or no aas and a modern racket, wouldn't they choose the no aas and the modern racket?

Also, say lance Armstrong uses peds and wins the tour de France, but 2nd place thru 10th place also used peds was he still cheating?

 

[stamp_on_kids]

Little Stampy went down that road

You really should stop doing this, one because I am actually quite bigger than you, and two its obvious from other posts in other threads that you like to put other people down, if your life is so pathetic you need to put other people down or judge other people to feel better about yourself you should really step away from the internet forums get a life and grow up.

 

[FranARG]

You really should stop doing this, one because I am actually quite bigger than you, and two its obvious from other posts in other threads that you like to put other people down, if your life is so pathetic you need to put other people down or judge other people to feel better about yourself you should really step away from the internet forums get a life and grow up.

Wtf??
1) I don´t know what you are talking about me liking to diminish others.
2) I say "little" not as in "you weigh 145lb". Don´t be that literal, dude..
3) I do have a life. I am a lawyer, I work, have a gf, go out, train, etc. So STF, I kindly ask.

As for your other post, cheating is doing something that is not allowed. It is not a monolitic thing wrote on stone. It changes as sports rules change. But hell, thats my opinion.

 

[liftstrong]

and why did my long message get all crammed together? i had separate paragraphs.... now no one is gonna read all that haha

yeah i skipped reading that haha! but i repped it cause i know it took atleast 15minutes lol

 

[bill86]

yeah i skipped reading that haha! but i repped it cause i know it took atleast 15minutes lol

hahah thanks... thats like the 3rd time that's happened.

 

[pyrobatt]

Wtf??
1) I don´t know what you are talking about me liking to diminish others.
2) I say "little" not as in "you weigh 145lb". Don´t be that literal, dude..
3) I do have a life. I am a lawyer, I work, have a gf, go out, train, etc. So STF, I kindly ask.

As for your other post, cheating is doing something that is not allowed. It is not a monolitic thing wrote on stone. It changes as sports rules change. But hell, thats my opinion.

May I approach the bench as a fellow laywer? I thought I was the only lawyer who lifts haha!

We have very busy scheduling and we can do it. I laugh at people who make excuses about not having time.
A little off topic but thought it needed to be said haha!

 

[FranARG]

May I approach the bench as a fellow laywer? I thought I was the only lawyer who lifts haha!

We have very busy scheduling and we can do it. I laugh at people who make excuses about not having time.
A little off topic but thought it needed to be said haha!

Haha! I know very little lawyers that lift, thats for sure!

If you arrange your schedule efficiently, there is always some time to hit the gym, although I dont litigate, I work in the family business.

 

[pyrobatt]

Haha! I know very little lawyers that lift, thats for sure!

If you arrange your schedule efficiently, there is always some time to hit the gym, although I dont litigate, I work in the family business.

I am a shark. ******* in the council chambers beast in the gym and loving husband at home.

 

[TaylorSwift]

Way I see it, I have a goal for myself. To obtain that goal I need a boost. Why should I care what other people think? Mediocrity is pathetic.

 

[Danb2285]

Way I see it, I have a goal for myself. To obtain that goal I need a boost. Why should I care what other people think? Mediocrity is pathetic.

If you ain't first your last

 

[jbryand101b]

If you ain't first your last

Lmao! Baby jesus! Reps when I get home!

 

[threeFs]

I was thinking about this the other day..... how many people take statins? Is that cheating? High BP meds? Cheaters? Antidepressants? Pain killers? The list goes on and on. But orals are OK/accepted but as soon as a medication goes IM, it's taboo.
This is so retarded. People who take AAS/PH are arguably the healthiest people around: diet and fitness oriented.
Cheating? Maybe in competition if nobody else uses. But cheating as in life? I say those cheaters in life are the ones who take drugs because of their poor health choices; obesity, type II diabetes, high BP, CPAP machines, motorized shopping cart things... THEY are the cheaters

 

[FranARG]

I was thinking about this the other day..... how many people take statins? Is that cheating? High BP meds? Cheaters? Antidepressants? Pain killers? The list goes on and on. But orals are OK/accepted but as soon as a medication goes IM, it's taboo.
This is so retarded. People who take AAS/PH are arguably the healthiest people around: diet and fitness oriented.
Cheating? Maybe in competition if nobody else uses. But cheating as in life? I say those cheaters in life are the ones who take drugs because of their poor health choices; obesity, type II diabetes, high BP, CPAP machines, motorized shopping cart things... THEY are the cheaters

I am with you in many of the things you said.
There is no such thing as "cheaters in life". You only cheat if it is banned or prohibited. Otherwise, you just enhance your athletic performance.

 

[Jiigzz]

The sport governing body's do not want you to cheat as it imparts a negative impact on the sporting image; think of the children who aspire to be these athletes for example, or want to grow up being the best in their field. Must the only way they can ever attain these results be from blood doping, injecting new compounds to hide under the radar and so on? Is this what we want the children to aspire toward?

The issue is though, that as the stress of being the best, as winning etc. mount and the pressure is on to retain medals and trophies and your job as an athlete, so to does the pressure to push yourself beyond what you are naturally capable to achieve. Sport is about winning; the parents that say "its not about winning, its about having fun" blah blah have got it wrong. When I compete, I want to win. I want to be the best. If I knew others in my sport were juicing, then I would too because otherwsie, I come second. And second doesn't get noticed by big sponsors.

Is it cheating? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Quite simply we want athletes to be bigger, better, faster stronger and be natural but then accuse them of cheating when they do attain these goals. If sport already has that kind of image, maybe it is time to embrace it.

Or maybe now more than ever it is time to change that perspective.

 

[Danb2285]

Until organized sports do a better job of testing there is going to be continued use of steroids at the professional level. This kind of goes back to the if everyone is doing it is it cheating question. Hell the NFL doesn't even test for HGH yet!

 

[Danb2285]

Speaking of organized sports and testing (not to hi jack jbry's thread) The MLB test for testosterone but they do it by testing a players baseline test levels throughout the year. Which made me think of a question for you guys who think any advantage is cheating....If a MLB player is on TRT and has constant test levels of let's say 800 to 1200 or somewhere in the "normal" range is that cheating? Even though he's on par with everyone else his age and has no significant advantage over anyone?

 

[pyrobatt]

I don't believe any sports test for ostraine yet