Opinions on Post Cycle Bloodwork?

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    Opinions on Post Cycle Bloodwork?


    Guys,

    I have some questions on some post cycle (ps/ph) bloodwork I had performed. It was a very strong cycle including tons of methyls but it was very short. I have already heard it from everyone how all the methyls are bad for you etc but I wanted to run an experiment to see if all the toxcicity issues where a scare or true and I figured two weeks was not that bad. Now I know there are going to be some guys that are going to flame me but I would really appreciate some feedback on the certain test results that have me a bit scared. They are as follows.


    ALT 52(h) ref range <45 U/L I know that this one is likely elevated from the methyls.
    This was the second round of bloodwork I had performed. The first was right at the end
    of my cycle and no liver enzymes were elevated at that time. I found it strange that
    the ALT only became elevated post cycle.

    HDL 39 ref range >39 Just barely below normal. From the ps/ph I am sure but total cholester was only 160
    and ratio was 4.1. Not too worried about this one.

    ******
    C-Reactive Protein (hs-CRP) very high and this one is the one that has me worried.

    9.15 ref range <5.00 mg/L


    WHAT THE F*&% WITH THE C-Reactive Protein??????? I know this is my own fault but this really has me worried. During the blood work I was on 100mgs of Clomid, Tri-Max 2mgs per day, and Pro-Liver by Primaforce.

    Guys any feedback would really be appreciated. Now I am worries that I will keel over in my chair from a Heart Attack.


    Mr.50


    P.S. --- Can high hs-CRP be from overall inflammation throughout the body like from and extremem workout the night before on a restricted calorie diet (hopefully)??????
    Last edited by Mr.50; 12-28-2004 at 11:37 AM. Reason: add something


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    Honestly those two look almost normal. Some guys liver vaules show high sometime just from working out hard and is not uncommon. I find it hard to believe these are good after methyls. What did you take?how much?
    C-reactive protein is a special type of protein produced by the liver that is only present during episodes of acute inflammation. Recently, new studies have suggested that CRP may also be elevated in heart attacks. The role of CRP in coronary artery disease remains unclear. It is not known whether it is merely a marker of disease or whether it actually plays a role in causing atherosclerotic disease. Many consider elevated CRP to be a positive risk factor for coronary artery disease.
    More than likely it is from the methyls that has your liver irritated.

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    I took more methyls than anyone with a brain should. Check out my post:


    Guys I recently did a short (2 week) cycle of high dose 3 methyls. I know most people said not too but I said what the **** and gave it a shot. I just had blood work done and my liver values were just at the top of the normal reference range. Now it could be just me or it could be the short duration of the cycle. Maybe shortly the liver values would go off the charts but at least for two weeks I was ok. Also I did take ProLiver for protection throughout. I had good results and felt great. Now I am doing PCT and I feel fine. Maybe I am just lucky; but I really feel that it depends on WNAT METHYLS that are included in the stack. Remember methylation does not necessarily make a compound a liver killer it just may make it slightly worse for the liver depending how it changes the tertiary structure of the molecule. The cycle is as follows.


    Cutter

    60 mgs of MDHT spread throughout the day (DS brand)
    60 mgs of M5AA spread throughout the day (DS Brand)
    30 mgs of M4OHN spread throughout the dat (HM Gear)

    150 mgs of methyls total.

    3 ProLiver throughout the day.

    150 mcgs of T4
    1 TriMax in the morning

    Started at 193 and 11 % bf ended 186 at 8% for a total of seven pound of almost pure fat loss. Rotating extremem carb reduction. No carbs Monday through Thursday with only 1200 (approx) per day. Friday through Sunday as much food as I desired but almost no FAT. Totally clean diet. This is the greatest cycle I have ever run in my opinion. It started as an experiment but it was really a success. The only problem is I don't have the rest of my blood work, CBC etc. so I don't know if my other chemistries are off, HDL etc. Also it is pretty obvious that this can only be done for two weeks. Also by the way I did no weight training during this period. I only did a typical boxing training routine, including sparring, 5 days per week and ran about 2 miles three days a week (roadwork) and did various plyometrics to build up power, (explosive pushups, pullups, etc).



    Mr.50


    PS -- I also forgot to mention that I did have a s;ightly significant increase in BP. 140/83 average at rest. Not a disaster but it was something I was monitoring.


    Anyway I this is the original post of my cycle. At the time of the first blood work (last day of cycle) all liver enzymes were normal. The new more complete bloodwork was one week post cycle. That C-Reactive Protein really has me worried though.

    Mr.50

    Quote Originally Posted by dg806
    Honestly those two look almost normal. Some guys liver vaules show high sometime just from working out hard and is not uncommon. I find it hard to believe these are good after methyls. What did you take?how much?
    C-reactive protein is a special type of protein produced by the liver that is only present during episodes of acute inflammation. Recently, new studies have suggested that CRP may also be elevated in heart attacks. The role of CRP in coronary artery disease remains unclear. It is not known whether it is merely a marker of disease or whether it actually plays a role in causing atherosclerotic disease. Many consider elevated CRP to be a positive risk factor for coronary artery disease.
    More than likely it is from the methyls that has your liver irritated.
    Last edited by Mr.50; 12-28-2004 at 12:19 PM. Reason: clean up

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    dg806 covered the CRP. This is why it is also advised to avoid resistance training prior to blood draws. I suspect that it is post training stress/inflamation.

    I'm not positive, but believe I read that clomid/nolva can raise ALT. Hence post cycle elevation could be related. I will search my archives for that one.

    EDIT: it was not ALT but something else (BUN:Creatinine)
    Quote Originally Posted by ergoman500,Apr 5 2004, 02:19 PM
    The only thing I noticed is that after spending 3 hours looking for SOMETHING to be wrong with your blood-results :wacko: - was that nolva sometimes can elevate the BUN/CREATININE ratio - occasionally.
    He is a trusted source.

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    Wish I could offer something but bloodwork is beyond my scope of knowledge at this point. Ineed pay closer attention to this stuff. Try shooting DrD a PM like you did me.He's the man to set you straight.

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    bump

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    Can't help with the bloodwork problem, but wondering why you used m5aa and mdht in the same cycle? Why not just one or the other?

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    I have noticed that the M5AA seems better for pure hardness but the MDHT helps to keep libido up better and I also get better fullness/slight gains from it. Additionally, there has been a lot of discussion that M5AA and MDHT are in equilibrium in vivo. This means that boosting both at the same time is the best way of maintaining equilibrium while increasing overall levels of the compounds in question.


    Mr.50

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    Since m5aa converts to mdht in vivo, wouldn't just m5aa supplementation lead to eventual equilibrium between MDHT and m5aa, as m5aa is converted? The body converts whatever is necessary to obtain equilibrium (assuming this is true)?


    Also, just a side note, have you gotten any CNS stimulation from MDHT? It was supposed to have much more CNS stim than m5aa, but initial reports seem to show little to no stimulation, at least compared to m5aa. I've read (dont know how true this is) that m5aa is half m3aa and m5aa, and that most of the stimulation comes from the m3aa, which would make sense as 3aa itself provides ample CNS stim.

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    I have not been impressed with the CNS stimulation of either M5AA or MDHT. I guess I thought it would be more significant. But MDHT does seems to give me an overall sense of well being.


    As far as the equilibrium goes, it was sort of an after thought in my rational. I think that you are correct as far as using just M5AA eventually balancing the equilibrium but I think that that would take an overall higher dose to set the equilibrium balance at a higher aboslute level the M5AA and MDHT combined.

    Mr.50

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    Don't worry Mr.50,

    CRP is usually caused by infection, birth control or steroid use, exercise, high caffeine use, sleep deprivation, high BP, or a high protein diet. You HDL, and liver enzymes look fine. I bet your calories were just too low and your body was working overtime to burn those 8 lb's. Plus, you were weight training!

    CRP changes from day to day, go get it checked again and I could better advise you from there. But honestly, I really doubt you have a heart or liver issue. With the roids, low calories and stress it's very explainable. You might have been coming down with a cold or pneumonia to, but never got sick due to the M5 immunity enhancement. Believe me, I'd tell you if you should be worried. Just take your omega-3's, bioflavinoids and proteolytic enzymes in the mean time if your still concerned, and have it tested again randomly sometime in the next few weeks.

    Now you have 2 doctors BTW, the 3 methyls you were on are probably some of the most 'friendly' you could combine. My ALT goes higher on 100mg clomid! So don't get worried quite yet.

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    Thanks bro. I really appreciate the information and advice. I feel much better now. I will still take the precautions you indicated but I feel much better and relieved. I was worried that I was going to keel over at any moment and it really worried me because I am only 30 and I figured if I am in this cardiovascular shape now its only going to get worse ......

    Lots of love for Dr.D. Your the best man.


    Mr.50

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    I had a blood draw sprung on me during a routine visit to my doc (BP check). I had just chugged a shake and it was the last day of a 1-t/4AD/M5AA cycle. My results were skewed as well. I posted them Here

    I will be getting more bloodwork done in late Feb. and will be sure not to train or eat prior to going. I know that the results get pretty screwed up when you are a BB just as Dr.D mentioned. Even knowing that.....we always get freaked out

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    Thanks again guys.



    Mr.50

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    Yeah, it's just like SJA said and like his results too, tell your doc if you work out. A good doc will be able to incorporate that info into his conclusion about the results and not freak you out. We tend to freak out, but when I turned 30, I finally realized that all my suicidal habbits had just made me smarter and that I wasn't leaving this life behind 'till God was good and done with me! There's no easy way out (unless you drive off a clif or something, I'd probably survive that too)

    Oh well, make the most of life! Keep 3 at a time methyl cycles short and smart (like you did,) monitor, take good supps, eat well, etc... we love you too m50

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