Permanent HPTA suppression?.

[KenTheEagle]

Hello guys, its been a while since i started a thread LOL, i am glad i can come here more often !.

ive been reading too much from Seth Roberts and William LLewellyn, i must say these guys are amazing!, been learning tons, and i think they finally put me on planet earth and solved most of my questions.

I am comming off a test e cycle at 500 mgs tapering. i am currently running a tamo and clomid PCT, I also did use HCG during cycle, things are smooth right now.... but it was until i heard about the "anabolic doc" (not sure if you guys know him but he treats a lot of athletes) and some of his posts, according to the anabolic doc, after 18 weeks on cycle "you are fkd" (his words). He says you would need TRT for life, now i am not sure if this is true, i will definately get bloodwork done maybe 2 months after pct and 1 month previous my next cycle.

According to Seth Roberts and William LLewellyn, everyone should recover after any cycle, specially when running the poWer PCT (wich is similar that my PCT), and that if someone does not recover its because there is an underlying condition.

To this point i havent found any studies that show permanent suppression after a steroid cycle, now i wonder if that is possible, i watched bigger, faster, stronger and that documentary even shows that everyone should recover after steroid use. Does anybody knows if permanent shutdown its possible, more specificcaly permanent damage to the hpta?. i would appreciate any input.

 

[HondaV65]

It's not an imagined fact - we have board members in their 20's on TRT who shut down their HPTA with excessive AAS use.

18 week cycles? Goddam that's a long time. I read once where you can avoid most problems with HPTA recovery by doing cycles 8 weeks or less. Longest I've ever done a cycle is 4 weeks and that was ... Epistane - LOL!

 

[Viking23]

It's not an imagined fact - we have board members in their 20's on TRT who shut down their HPTA with excessive AAS use.

18 week cycles? Goddam that's a long time. I read once where you can avoid most problems with HPTA recovery by doing cycles 8 weeks or less. Longest I've ever done a cycle is 4 weeks and that was ... Epistane - LOL!

The longer you stay on the bigger chance you take. Does that mean you def ****ed yourself? Probably not but def run a good pct and remember everyone body reacts differently so you might be lucky in this case. But I would def start researching short burst cycles for the future.

 

[Killler]

It's not an imagined fact - we have board members in their 20's on TRT who shut down their HPTA with excessive AAS use.

18 week cycles? Goddam that's a long time. I read once where you can avoid most problems with HPTA recovery by doing cycles 8 weeks or less. Longest I've ever done a cycle is 4 weeks and that was ... Epistane - LOL!

I would also not cycle longer than 4 weeks


My friend from the gym has been on a 48 week cycle of test e.

Here he is
























I thought he was never gonna stop.

He stopped now.

And he`s running HCG- he thinks this is PCT.

His back is pretty good.









I have no idea why I told you all this or showed you these pics.

I am very very bored.



p.s. Here he is deadlifting 705.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwFoxlrcNTU

I love this guy.

 

[Rodja]

Possible, yes, but saying you'll definitively need TRT for life from an 18 week cycle is bull****. I did a 26ish week cycle in 2011 and was back to baseline levels within 12 weeks.

 

[Viking23]

If he is running hcg for pct he is actually messing himself up more. Just an FYI in case you were unaware

 

[Killler]

If he is running hcg for pct he is actually messing himself up more. Just an FYI in case you were unaware

I told him but he doesn`t care.

 

[HondaV65]

If he is running hcg for pct he is actually messing himself up more. Just an FYI in case you were unaware

+1 :wave2:

 

[FranARG]

Hello guys, its been a while since i started a thread LOL, i am glad i can come here more often !. ive been reading too much from Seth Roberts and William LLewellyn, i must say these guys are amazing!, been learning tons, and i think they finally put me on planet earth and solved most of my questions.I am comming off a test e cycle at 500 mgs tapering. i am currently running a tamo and clomid PCT, I also did use HCG during cycle, things are smooth right now.... but it was until i heard about the "anabolic doc" (not sure if you guys know him but he treats a lot of athletes) and some of his posts, according to the anabolic doc, after 18 weeks on cycle "you are fkd" (his words). He says you would need TRT for life, now i am not sure if this is true, i will definately get bloodwork done maybe 2 months after pct and 1 month previous my next cycle.According to Seth Roberts and William LLewellyn, everyone should recover after any cycle, specially when running the poWer PCT (wich is similar that my PCT), and that if someone does not recover its because there is an underlying condition.To this point i havent found any studies that show permanent suppression after a steroid cycle, now i wonder if that is possible, i watched bigger, faster, stronger and that documentary even shows that everyone should recover after steroid use. Does anybody knows if permanent shutdown its possible, more specificcaly permanent damage to the hpta?. i would appreciate any input.

Last year I went to an endocrinologist that works with athletes here in Argentina to ask him about how to run AAS cycle. I ended up not trying AAS, but he told me that it was very very rare to **** up your core permanently if you go with a proper PCT.Despite that, I would go get tested and see whats going on.Good luck!

 

[Flex19]

A buddy of mine did a 42 week cycle as his second cycle. Not very smart in my opinion but you can't stop ppl from doing what they want. He finished Pct and got his blood works 2 weeks after and all his levels were fine. He did a proper pct and he's fine.

 

[Killler]

A buddy of mine did a 42 week cycle as his second cycle. Not very smart in my opinion but you can't stop ppl from doing what they want. He finished Pct and got his blood works 2 weeks after and all his levels were fine. He did a proper pct and he's fine.

One should never risk EVERYTHING running such so long cycles.

 

[ExerciseorDie]

Sounds like crap to me. Just run a killer PCT and get checked out man. Hope everything works out bro!

 

[KenTheEagle]

Hey guys thanks for all the responses, very useful, with this information i am aware of what i should expect, also i didnt mention, ive read that testicular damage (permanent atrophy) its possible, however, i hope this is not the case with HPTA, i will let you guys know once i run bloodwork. i plan on running trenbolone in a future, if my bloodwork is g2g i will, and will log it on here .

Any more advices are really appreciated

 

[El Hefe]

I would guess that 20% of those who have cycled regularly (2-3 per yr) and heavily (1g+ for 12+ wks) are on TRT.

But there isn't a right answer. One guy can do short moderate cycles and change his hormones forever. Another can cycle heavily for 10+ years and then recover in 16 weeks.

I wouldn't say that I messed myself up, but I can definitely see some changes from the combo of steroid use and getting older. I went into my twenties around 140-160 lbs. consuming 4,000+ cals/day. All the men in my family were thin and small framed. Cycled moderately through my early twenties and reached 220 lbs. Now I'm in my mid 30's and I can maintain 230 lbs with about 1500 cals/day. Not to mention some other changes.

So yes, steroids have effects.

 

[FranARG]

I would guess that 20% of those who have cycled regularly (2-3 per yr) and heavily (1g+ for 12+ wks) are on TRT.

But there isn't a right answer. One guy can do short moderate cycles and change his hormones forever. Another can cycle heavily for 10+ years and then recover in 16 weeks.

I wouldn't say that I messed myself up, but I can definitely see some changes from the combo of steroid use and getting older. I went into my twenties around 140-160 lbs. consuming 4,000+ cals/day. All the men in my family were thin and small framed. Cycled moderately through my early twenties and reached 220 lbs. Now I'm in my mid 30's and I can maintain 230 lbs with about 1500 cals/day. Not to mention some other changes.

So yes, steroids have effects.

Thanks for your post. Could you please mention what cycles did you run? And, if its ok, could you tell us what "other changes" ahora referring to?
Thanks!

 

[KenTheEagle]

Thanks for your post. Could you please mention what cycles did you run? And, if its ok, could you tell us what "other changes" ahora referring to?
Thanks!

^ this!, i am curious too,also, changes for good?....

I just read a post from a very knowledgeable author that makes me feel better, in other works he says permanent hpta suppression is unlikely unless you pay proper attention to hpta recovery, he also mentions what "el hefe" says, tha author also says that you run too many cycles to find out you are gettin older, the older you are the more you would need TRT, specially nowdays that almost anything affect your hormones, so that claim makes sense, this may be why we havent found a single study showing hpta permanent damage (atrophy).
I think then that short cycles are used to avoid testicular damage, because permanent testicular damage could be possible (i.e tests loss volume dont get back to normal size), specially with stronger cycles, thats why it would be wise to run short cycles and less suppressive compounds, and that is also why hcg could be important to avoid testicular damage (also too much hcg or not using hcg properly could fk you up as well).... but as for hpta goes, i think it is 90% unlikely that you would get permanent damage. This is my conclusion due to the posts here and some authors that are experts on this area.

I hope my pct goes well LOL. i can say that i lost desire to train, maybe because of my job that requires more time... but i think this is how PCT is, its been 1 week and a half since i trained. I usually get 1 or 2 weeks of during pct to avoid overtrain and stress, since pct is critical.

 

[El Hefe]

I'm not attempting to give cycle advise, but I will say that my cycles ranged from 6-10 weeks. Everyone is different and responds different. Therefore, its hard to give advise without truly knowing how one will react.

IMO, once in individual is ready, he needs to start slow, with a moderate dose of preferably one compound/steroid to establish a baseline and how he reacts. If you use 3 steroids your first cycle, how do you know which one(s) your responding positively or negatively to.

Also, I don't want to say that hpta will not be affected if cycles and pct are ran properly, because negative sides can still happen. As I said in my earlier post "One guy can do short moderate cycles and change (damage) his hormones forever. Another can cycle heavily for 10+ years and then recover fully in 16 weeks". I don't need to list all of the risks associated with steroids because we all know them.

For me personally, the only sides I've ever experienced were a little acne and hair loss. However, hair loss runs in my family. But steroids did speed things up a little.

I've never heard someone say this exactly, but I personally feel like steroids accelerated me hormonally to where I was eventually heading. Meaning I gained weight, strength and muscle, but I kind of felt like an older man when I was finished. When I say 'old', I mean a man in his 30's or 40's. In my early 20's I was full of piss, vinegar and energy. By 25, I felt more like a 35 year old. My hormone and thyroid levels were/are still in a decent range, I just didn't feel like chasing girls and playing sports the way I did 5 years earlier. So I literally feel like steroids sped things up hormonally for me.

I'm not sure theres any science behind that, but it's my personal feeling and opinion.

 

[KenTheEagle]

I'm not attempting to give cycle advise, but I will say that my cycles ranged from 6-10 weeks. Everyone is different and responds different. Therefore, its hard to give advise without truly knowing how one will react.

IMO, once in individual is ready, he needs to start slow, with a moderate dose of preferably one compound/steroid to establish a baseline and how he reacts. If you use 3 steroids your first cycle, how do you know which one(s) your responding positively or negatively to.

Also, I don't want to say that hpta will not be affected if cycles and pct are ran properly, because negative sides can still happen. As I said in my earlier post "One guy can do short moderate cycles and change (damage) his hormones forever. Another can cycle heavily for 10+ years and then recover fully in 16 weeks". I don't need to list all of the risks associated with steroids because we all know them.

For me personally, the only sides I've ever experienced were a little acne and hair loss. However, hair loss runs in my family. But steroids did speed things up a little.

I've never heard someone say this exactly, but I personally feel like steroids accelerated me hormonally to where I was eventually heading. Meaning I gained weight, strength and muscle, but I kind of felt like an older man when I was finished. When I say 'old', I mean a man in his 30's or 40's. In my early 20's I was full of piss, vinegar and energy. By 25, I felt more like a 35 year old. My hormone and thyroid levels were/are still in a decent range, I just didn't feel like chasing girls and playing sports the way I did 5 years earlier. So I literally feel like steroids sped things up hormonally for me.

I'm not sure theres any science behind that, but it's my personal feeling and opinion.

Thanks for the feedback my friend, i feel the opposite, actually i on my 25 years and i feel better than ever!, even than when i was 15... altho people say that i look so young, i wonder if ive always had low T, but even on pct i dont feel that bad, 4 weeks after i end a steroid cycle and i feel good. Thats why i love gear so much, with gear i live the best years of my life! , i got a new job, i went up very quick, and i did bunch of things... who doesnt love gear? gives you more power, strength, libido, sharpness, energy! i wish i knew gear when i was 21 <3 (altho not recommended for those under 25, since endocrine system is not fully developed)

 

[TheMaharaja]

I've never heard someone say this exactly, but I personally feel like steroids accelerated me hormonally to where I was eventually heading. Meaning I gained weight, strength and muscle, but I kind of felt like an older man when I was finished. When I say 'old', I mean a man in his 30's or 40's. In my early 20's I was full of piss, vinegar and energy. By 25, I felt more like a 35 year old. My hormone and thyroid levels were/are still in a decent range, I just didn't feel like chasing girls and playing sports the way I did 5 years earlier. So I literally feel like steroids sped things up hormonally for me.

Im not saying you're wrong but I think a lot of men feel different at 25 than they did at 20, especially their sex drive. Men's sex drives peak early 20s right?

 

[Flex19]

One should never risk EVERYTHING running such so long cycles.

I'm with you on that but some people just gotta live to learn. Things like anabolic cycles you don't try to reinvent the wheel.

 

[HondaV65]

I have been working out hard and heavy since the late '70's. I had a lot of bros of mine who went on gear. Maybe I would have gone on gear too but I saw what they went through when they came off the juice. There was no PCT back then - you suffered through things until you recovered. Since I'm a pu$$y - I wasn't going to deal with that pain.

I didn't take a single anabolic until I was 49 years old and the longest cycle I've ever done was 4 weeks of Epistane. My natty test levels (months off the juice) is still around 800 - 900 and free test is unbelievably high too. I really have no explanation for it - considering I'm 51 now. And - because I'm in such good shape - I'm pretty sure I'm the oldest bar bouncer in my home town - which is a major metropolitan city.

I will try to maintain my natty levels while I do short burst cycles. When my HPTA ****s the bed - I'll go TRT and go hog wild with test! Hopefully that won't be for awhile.

Now - on this issue of permanent HPTA supression. Hey look - there ARE young guys on this board (we know who they are) who went hog wild with AAS and are now on TRT.

So be careful.

 

[Killler]

I have been working out hard and heavy since the late '70's. I had a lot of bros of mine who went on gear. Maybe I would have gone on gear too but I saw what they went through when they came off the juice. There was no PCT back then - you suffered through things until you recovered. Since I'm a pu$$y - I wasn't going to deal with that pain.

I didn't take a single anabolic until I was 49 years old and the longest cycle I've ever done was 4 weeks of Epistane. My natty test levels (months off the juice) is still around 800 - 900 and free test is unbelievably high too. I really have no explanation for it - considering I'm 51 now. And - because I'm in such good shape - I'm pretty sure I'm the oldest bar bouncer in my home town - which is a major metropolitan city.

I will try to maintain my natty levels while I do short burst cycles. When my HPTA ****s the bed - I'll go TRT and go hog wild with test! Hopefully that won't be for awhile.

Now - on this issue of permanent HPTA supression. Hey look - there ARE young guys on this board (we know who they are) who went hog wild with AAS and are now on TRT.

So be careful.

Honda,did you take your Epistane in the morning only?


I agree,short burst cycles would be my favorite also.

Injectable (long) ester steroids that cruise in the blood 24/7 will suppress you the most.

And even then,recovery will be easy if you keep the dose low and cycle short.

..........

 

[EasyEJL]

It's not an imagined fact - we have board members in their 20's on TRT who shut down their HPTA with excessive AAS use.

18 week cycles? Goddam that's a long time. I read once where you can avoid most problems with HPTA recovery by doing cycles 8 weeks or less. Longest I've ever done a cycle is 4 weeks and that was ... Epistane - LOL!

but those young guys who are on TRT also started as young as 17, did cycles back to back for 2 or 3 years too, and usually without a drop of bloodwork the whole time.

 

[Killler]

but those young guys who are on TRT also started as young as 17, did cycles back to back for 2 or 3 years too, and usually without a drop of bloodwork the whole time.

Why do you claim they started at 17?

 

[EasyEJL]

Why do you claim they started at 17?

a number of them did, not all. But I don't know of any who had to go onto TRT by 22-23 who hadn't done their first cycle before they turned 19.

 

[Killler]

a number of them did, not all. But I don't know of any who had to go onto TRT by 22-23 who hadn't done their first cycle before they turned 19.

Any of these morons,like the guy I posted in the thread,are going to be in need of TRT.No matter what age they started.

This guys was on test E 1000 mg/week for 48 weeks.

Now he`s been on HCG (he thinks this is PCT) for a month and in a month in half he`s getting back on test.

But you could **** yourself up with a lot less than 48 weeks.

IMO nothing over 12-16 weeks is allowed.

 

[FranARG]

Any of these morons,like the guy I posted in the thread,are going to be in need of TRT.No matter what age they started.

This guys was on test E 1000 mg/week for 48 weeks.

Now he`s been on HCG (he thinks this is PCT) for a month and in a month in half he`s getting back on test.

But you could **** yourself up with a lot less than 48 weeks.

IMO nothing over 12-16 weeks is allowed.

I dont get it. With all the info out here on the internet, who could be dumb enough to run ****ed up cycles like the ones you are mentioning???

 

[EasyEJL]

plenty of guys. Usually young. They run one 6 week cycle, do a 4 week PCT, feel great, go on another 6 week cycle, do pct feel less great after, start losing some of the gains, so they hop back on again.... and then their pct/rest periods get shorter and shorter, their doses of stuff start going up and up...

 

[FranARG]

plenty of guys. Usually young. They run one 6 week cycle, do a 4 week PCT, feel great, go on another 6 week cycle, do pct feel less great after, start losing some of the gains, so they hop back on again.... and then their pct/rest periods get shorter and shorter, their doses of stuff start going up and up...

Everyone knows you should not go into that path. It gets you ****ed up, and gear dependant.

 

[EasyEJL]

Everyone knows you should not go into that path. It gets you ****ed up, and gear dependant.

sure, but plenty of them have some successful initial cycles that they know they "recovered 100% from" even though they never did any bloodwork. so maybe even their first couple of cycles are reasonably responsible. But by then they're 25lbs or more up from when they started and keep having a harder time even maintaining it, much less making gains off cycle. And so they don't realize what they are doing to themselves till they've screwed themselves.

 

[Killler]

I dont get it. With all the info out here on the internet, who could be dumb enough to run ****ed up cycles like the ones you are mentioning???

Guys who believe they are so badass and hardcore.

Also,they don`t get much info from the internet,but usually from guys around the gym.