Toremifene Cycle with bloodwork

[anaboliks]

Not too long did a month long Haloplex cycle which was followed up with a torem PCT. You can check it out here (nevermind can't post a link) if you are interested. You can see that the torem brought my boys back within a week and my libido was through the roof. So after that observation I starting researching SERM only cycles. I am sure many are aware that some have actually done this already with great results if executed correctly. From what I have researched, one can boost their test levels significantly and even well beyond the normal healthy range. However, this is not my goal. My goal is simply to boost my test levels to the top of the normal range by taking the smallest dose possible. Torem doesn't have many side effects regardless but I am not expecting to gain 10 pounds in a month. I am just trying to get a slight edge over an extended period of time of several months if all goes well. So without further adue I will begin documenting my blood work here. Any input is greatly appreciated.

Normal Ranges
test 348 - 1197
Estradiol 7.6 - 42.6
LH 1.7 - 8.6
FSH 1.5 - 12.4
AST 0 - 40
ALT 0 - 44

Before (taken at noon)
Test 645
estradiol 41
LH 4.4
FSH 3.5
AST 25
ALT 28

1 week (taken early afternoon)
test 827
estradiol 26.8
LH 7.9
FSH 5.4
AST 25
ALT 33

As you can see the the response is rapid. LH, FSH, and Test are all elevated from baseline.

 

[lucky04]

Maybe I missed it, what dose did you take/what was the dosing protocol?

 

[anaboliks]

Maybe I missed it, what dose did you take/what was the dosing protocol?

sorry about that. 50 mgs ED.

 

[Slappy244]

subbed.

I'll be running torem for my PCT in 12 weeks.

How often do you plan on getting your labs done?

 

[anaboliks]

subbed.

I'll be running torem for my PCT in 12 weeks.

How often do you plan on getting your labs done?

I am not too sure. At least once a month. Sometimes I get curious and just get them done because I am experiencing some type of effect and I want to know where I am at.

 

[anaboliks]

10 Days

I thought I would just give a little update on how I am feeling on the torem after ten days.Just like the times I used torem before, I felt the effects on libido rapidly. I think it was day 3 where I starting noticing erections and sexual thoughts throughout the day. My libido was way up. At about the week mark I notice that my balls were huge but the libido effect started to diminish. It still boosts libido but not like those first few days. I wonder why that is exactly. I have noticed that my workouts have been more intense.

 

[808shredded]

Are you taking any other supps, that boosts test also?

 

[anaboliks]

No. Every once in a while I take a squirt of Arimidex if I feel like drying out or if I feel like I need it. Maybe like .5 mg to 1 mg a week.

 

[lucky04]

I'm about to start a torem centered PCT...I wonder if it would be beneficial to extend PCT from 4 weeks to 5-6 weeks? Any thoughts?

 

[anaboliks]

I'm about to start a torem centered PCT...I wonder if it would be beneficial to extend PCT from 4 weeks to 5-6 weeks? Any thoughts?

In my humble opinion, I'd say there is no harm in that at all. There have been tons of instances where doctors actually prescribe SERMs in place of conventional TRT. Typically Clomid is used though, simply because it has been around longer. Google provided me with a loads of information and experiences where men prescribed Clomid for well over a year and even 6 or 7 years.

 

[anaboliks]

I thought I would document an observation. For my Test being higher than it has ever been (documented at least), my libido is boosted but isn't necessarily through the roof. I feel fine but I don't necessarily feel as good as I thought I would with those elevated Test numbers. Maybe I was being slightly too optimistic because those first few days on Torem my libido was through the roof.

I'll stay consistent and see where this all goes.

 

[whaz]

Subbed, I've been interested in a clomid only cycle. Interested to see how torem treats you.

 

[AwhYeah]

I have been taking Torem for two weeks now(120/90/now 60). I feel great.

 

[AwhYeah]

I thought I would document an observation. For my Test being higher than it has ever been (documented at least), my libido is boosted but isn't necessarily through the roof. I feel fine but I don't necessarily feel as good as I thought I would with those elevated Test numbers. Maybe I was being slightly too optimistic because those first few days on Torem my libido was through the roof.

I'll stay consistent and see where this all goes.

Same here man. Days 1-3 I was getting wood like a beaver. Now it's just normal. Which is cool

 

[vassille]

Not too long did a month long Haloplex cycle which was followed up with a torem PCT. You can check it out here (nevermind can't post a link) if you are interested. You can see that the torem brought my boys back within a week and my libido was through the roof. So after that observation I starting researching SERM only cycles. I am sure many are aware that some have actually done this already with great results if executed correctly. From what I have researched, one can boost their test levels significantly and even well beyond the normal healthy range. However, this is not my goal. My goal is simply to boost my test levels to the top of the normal range by taking the smallest dose possible. Torem doesn't have many side effects regardless but I am not expecting to gain 10 pounds in a month. I am just trying to get a slight edge over an extended period of time of several months if all goes well. So without further adue I will begin documenting my blood work here. Any input is greatly appreciated.

Normal Ranges
test 348 - 1197
Estradiol 7.6 - 42.6
LH 1.7 - 8.6
FSH 1.5 - 12.4
AST 0 - 40
ALT 0 - 44

Before (taken at noon)
Test 645
estradiol 41
LH 4.4
FSH 3.5
AST 25
ALT 28

1 week (taken early afternoon)
test 827
estradiol 26.8
LH 7.9
FSH 5.4
AST 25
ALT 33

As you can see the the response is rapid. LH, FSH, and Test are all elevated from baseline.

Looks like you were shut down from the get go. LH and FSH are rather low. What you doing is like another PCT which can only help.

 

[anaboliks]

Looks like you were shut down from the get go. LH and FSH are rather low. What you doing is like another PCT which can only help.

i wouldn't say I was shut down at all. All my values were squarely in the middle of the ranges. If anything, considering the time of day the labs were taken, I'd say my values looked great other than my Estradiol was on the higher end of the spectrum.

 

[anaboliks]

Observation.

Pre torem my T/E reation was 1:20. After just a week of torem and very low dose arimidex my ratio is now 1:40. These numbers have been fudged to accomodate for the time of day the tests were taken and for easier rounding.

I can say I feel great today. Perhaps the torem is evening out and the levels are getting more stable. Libido is definitely full force today. I hope that stays like that because I like it. My mood is elevated and I believe I feel just a tad more confident.

 

[anaboliks]

I think I am noticing a bit of depression from this Torem. That kinda stinks considering that I want the Test to boost my mood. I have been emotional and just feeling really down for sure. Has anyone else noticed that on Torem?

 

[anaboliks]

Okay. I think I am noticing a bit of depression and anxiety from this torem. I think I am going to reduce the dosage to 50 mgs EOD.

 

[Slappy244]

Okay. I think I am noticing a bit of depression and anxiety from this torem. I think I am going to reduce the dosage to 50 mgs EOD.

any drugs (cannabis?) or alcohol?

 

[vassille]

i wouldn't say I was shut down at all. All my values were squarely in the middle of the ranges. If anything, considering the time of day the labs were taken, I'd say my values looked great other than my Estradiol was on the higher end of the spectrum.

You right I looked quickly at the normal ranges you gave and assumed those low values were yours. You werent shut down pretty much middle of the road. Nice improvment from before.

 

[vassille]

Okay. I think I am noticing a bit of depression and anxiety from this torem. I think I am going to reduce the dosage to 50 mgs EOD.

Yes it's rather common to feel like that on clomid or torem class drugs. They also tend to get attached to other receptors(forgot which ones) which causes this problem. Solution if there is one is to lower the dosage way down. For example with clomid maybe someone would take 12.5 MWF. Very low dosage.
This is the main reason why these drugs are not a solution for long term HRT even though they work as intended the sides just suck.

 

[standon23]

Answer me aboboliks I messaged you bro

 

[anaboliks]

Yes it's rather common to feel like that on clomid or torem class drugs. They also tend to get attached to other receptors(forgot which ones) which causes this problem. Solution if there is one is to lower the dosage way down. For example with clomid maybe someone would take 12.5 MWF. Very low dosage. This is the main reason why these drugs are not a solution for long term HRT even though they work as intended the sides just suck.

That's what I am thinking. If I can lower the dosage as low as possible and still get results, that will be the optimal solution. No drugs for me. Not even alcohol.

 

[Slappy244]

Messing with hormones always comes with risks. I hope you feel better man.

Sounds like your keeping a safe distance from depressants. It certainly wouldn't help to seek relief with drugs known to cause the symptoms you're describing.

Torem may not be the way to reach your goals. I wouldn't recommend continuing if you really feel like crap. Are you still able to kill it in the gym? That always makes me feel better regardless of what's getting me down. Endorphins are nature's prozac.

 

[standon23]

Why not clomid, tried and true for this

 

[crc32]

Why not clomid, tried and true for this

I've been on (legit prescription) clomid, 150mg ED. Started at 50, but didn't have an effect. Upped it, then again, and after two-three weeks, it seems to finally be working.

Don't have any sides of note yet, and i'll have bloods tomorrow.

 

[lboston]

I've been on (legit prescription) clomid, 150mg ED. Started at 50, but didn't have an effect. Upped it, then again, and after two-three weeks, it seems to finally be working.

Don't have any sides of note yet, and i'll have bloods tomorrow.

I used clomid at 25mg EOD...took my natural test levels from 190s to almost 800s.

 

[standon23]

Nice I might do research grade

 

[standon23]

I used clomid at 25mg EOD...took my natural test levels from 190s to almost 800s.

25 eod seems like very small dose wow

 

[anaboliks]

Messing with hormones always comes with risks. I hope you feel better man.

Sounds like your keeping a safe distance from depressants. It certainly wouldn't help to seek relief with drugs known to cause the symptoms you're describing.

Torem may not be the way to reach your goals. I wouldn't recommend continuing if you really feel like crap. Are you still able to kill it in the gym? That always makes me feel better regardless of what's getting me down. Endorphins are nature's prozac.

My time in the gym is okay. I think I might finish up this bottle of torem. I only have maybe two weeks left at EOD dosages. Then I will get bloodwork done just to see the results. Then I will switch to Clomid.

Why not clomid, tried and true for this

You are correct sir. I think I will switch over once this bottle of torem is gone.

I've been on (legit prescription) clomid, 150mg ED. Started at 50, but didn't have an effect. Upped it, then again, and after two-three weeks, it seems to finally be working.

Don't have any sides of note yet, and i'll have bloods tomorrow.

That's bodybuilder PCT levels of Clomid. There is no way I would be able to take that dose voluntarily simply to boost testosterone. For PCT I could do it if I didn't have an option but that's it.

I used clomid at 25mg EOD...took my natural test levels from 190s to almost 800s.

Yep, I have read alot of experiences similar to yours.

25 eod seems like very small dose wow

Yeah but if you google it you will find lots of experiences like that. It doesn't happen overnight like we want it to when doing PCT. It takes a little while longer to get to those levels but the old story of the tortoise and the hare comes to mind.

 

[anaboliks]

Observation

I just don't feel like this 50 mgs EOD is cutting it. I am not noticing any real improvement as far as libido or anything. I order Clomid last night so as soon as that gets here I'll start that up. I will get bloodwork done on Tuesday before I start that.

 

[liftin4fun]

Subbed. I am very interested in the blood work.

 

[vassille]

That's what I am thinking. If I can lower the dosage as low as possible and still get results, that will be the optimal solution. No drugs for me. Not even alcohol.

I hear you bro, def try clomid at 12.5, 3 times a week and take it from there. It might just work

 

[anaboliks]

Update. I have observed that I have been receiving a lot of comments on how in shape and muscular I am looking. I have to say I do feel slimmer in the midsection and my muscles feel full. I have been putting up good weight in the gym too.


Just got another comment lol. Apparently this shot is working. I do look lean and my weight is about the same.

 

[anaboliks]

Bloodwork is back

Taken at 4 pm
test 578
Estradial 18.6
LH 6.1
FSH 4.5
AST 25
ALT 36

Alright, considering the time that my labs were taken, my testosterone is probably about 25% higher which puts it around 722. Not bad but not great either considering my baseline is somewhere around 650 or so. LH and FSH are both up slightly. I am not really sure how to interpret these results honestly. Any input to bounce ideas around is more than welcome.

 

[lboston]

Taken at 4 pm
test 578
Estradial 18.6
LH 6.1
FSH 4.5
AST 25
ALT 36

Alright, considering the time that my labs were taken, my testosterone is probably about 25% higher which puts it around 722. Not bad but not great either considering my baseline is somewhere around 650 or so. LH and FSH are both up slightly. I am not really sure how to interpret these results honestly. Any input to bounce ideas around is more than welcome.

Is this on the tormen?

 

[anaboliks]

Yes. Torem

 

[AwhYeah]

I'm at the end of my PCT and decided to cruise at 30mg for another week during a small cut.

Thanks for the log

 

[lboston]

Taken at 4 pm
test 578
Estradial 18.6
LH 6.1
FSH 4.5
AST 25
ALT 36

Alright, considering the time that my labs were taken, my testosterone is probably about 25% higher which puts it around 722. Not bad but not great either considering my baseline is somewhere around 650 or so. LH and FSH are both up slightly. I am not really sure how to interpret these results honestly. Any input to bounce ideas around is more than welcome.

I think it seems about accurate.

A serm wouldn't increase your test levels that significantly (if that's what you were looking for). They send signals for your body to produce its own T. It can be very beneficial for someone with naturally low levels. Clomid took me from 190s to near 800s, but the doc was surprised see it that high. If you have natural T levels of mid 600s, I wouldn't think it would shoot you up to much higher than that.
Just my .02.

 

[anaboliks]

I have continued taking the torem just for the hell of it. I have definitely observed a link between my anxiety and my dose time. I have even gone three days and as my anxiety begins to diminish then I take a does like clockwork the anxiety creeps back in. Anyway it was a nice little experiment.

I suppose arimidex alone might give test a nice boost. Maybe I'll try that along the line. I'll try the Clomid as well at some point. For now normalization sounds like a breathe of fresh air.

 

[anaboliks]

I have been off the totem for about a week and the anxiety has definitely lessened. However, I just went on a vacation to the beach and I saw some pictures of myself. I do look much harder and leaner. Not only that but my bench has gone up by twenty pounds. My bodyweight is the same. I am happy with those results. I did notice some hair shedding. Is this because torem has some androgenic effects?

 

[crc32]

Ok, I figured I'd post an update.

When I was prescribed the clomid, my T was vey low. I had been on TRT with androgel, and while it as working, my wife and I recently decided to have kids. So I went off the androgel for 10 days and had my T tested (to get a baseline). It was 35 ng/dL, and estrodiol was 12.3 pg/dL. (While on the androgel, the most I could get my T up to was about 500, which was only OK, mood wise).

So I went on the clomid, and gradually ramped the dose up to 150mg, which is where I felt it kick in. I stayed there for a week or two and had my blood tested. T was up to 955, with the estrodiol up to 51. And I was feeling GREAT. However, LH was up to 18.1 mIU/mL (in a range of 1.7 - 8.6), so that had me a bit worried.

We decided to lower the clomid to 75mg over 5 days, and run that for 2-3 weeks.

So, now, new blood test results have T at 1038 (free @ 26.1), estrodiol @ 56.8, and LH @ 25.6.

The Doc isn't too worried about the LH anymore (did some additional research in the interim).

Anyway, the results have been nothing short of spectacular. I've gone from being a right ******* to everyone, to actually loving life again. Sex is MUCH better (and now that I'm in a better mood, much more frequent). I don't know if it has had any effects on my musculature, but I do seem to be losing fat at a faster clip than before.

In short, assuming you have proper bloods and doc oversight, this is a great protocol for some kinds of low T.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Logman]

Yea, because TRT shut you down and the serm is kickstarting your HPTA. Stay on Clomid for 6 months and let us know how your dick is doingand if you've been talked down off a few ledges. Also it's not going to keep your T levels at 1000+ for a sustainable period of time.

 

[crc32]

Yeah, the TRT shut me down, but it didn't have far to go. I was at 250-300 before starting it.

Sucks that this can't keep working. And I figured that it would stop eventually, but still hoping to get a few years before switching to shots.

Also, going to get monthly or bimonthly bloods to keep tracking eveything.

Oh yeah, I'm also taking Erase to help keep the estrogen in check. Got a little nevous when it spiked, but seems to have stabilized.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Slappy244]

A shot once a week at a TRT dose really wouldn't be that bad (0.5cc or less). I've been doing 1.7cc twice a week (not a TRT dose) and life is great.

 

[anaboliks]

I just wanted to post a little update. I have been dosing arimidex, actually liquidex, and I have noticed some profound effects. Its been about a month now at a dose of. 25 mgs twice a week. My chest and midsection have leaned out tremendously. I actually have a legit six pack. Every since I was about 25 I started getting that little pooch under my belly button. Also my chest is lean. I finally have definition under my pecs. I feel great too and my weight remains the same. I will get bloodwork done very soon to see what my numbers are.

 

[TaylorSwift]

I'm happy to hear that man. Feel good and live good.

 

[anaboliks]

Well I got my bloodwork back. I'd say it is just okay if not I am a little disappointed. Keep in mind that these labs were taken at 4 pm so my testosterone numbers may be a bit low.

Test is 454.
Estradiol is 17.
Lh is 3.7
Fsh is 3.2

I would like to have higher test as well as Lh and fsh but my t/e ratio is decent. In the morning my test would most likely be around 550. I will probably ditch the arimidex and see what happens. Anybody have any input?

 

[bigbb123]

Well I got my bloodwork back. I'd say it is just okay if not I am a little disappointed. Keep in mind that these labs were taken at 4 pm so my testosterone numbers may be a bit low.

Test is 454.
Estradiol is 17.
Lh is 3.7
Fsh is 3.2

I would like to have higher test as well as Lh and fsh but my t/e ratio is decent. In the morning my test would most likely be around 550. I will probably ditch the arimidex and see what happens. Anybody have any input?

Looks good man, if it aint broke dont fix it. Your def right about your readings being lower in the after noon, likely will be considerably higher in the early am. The longer time you give your body, the better it will likely improve. Shoot for a second round of bloods in 4 to 6 weeks imo and go from there.