Prohormone vs steroid

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    Prohormone vs steroid


    Was wondering....

    If someone with a lot of knowledge could answer this....


    Is there less harm or impact to the endocrine system(or to other areas or the body),
    if one uses a real prohormone or proprohormone
    than if one were to simply use the real hormone to which it converts.




    Assuming the PH or PPH is non-methylated off course.

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    Killer I'm kinda confused by the question let me see if I can put out a couple examples and tell me which closest describes what you are asking.

    Do you mean

    Oral Pro Turinabol(Halodrol) vs Oral Turinabol - Though both are methyl and oral

    or like

    Oral Methyl Masteron(Superdrol) vs Injectable Masteron(not methyl)

    or like

    Oral Pro Trenbolone(Trenavar) vs I think this can be Oral or Injectable Metribolone(Methyl Trenbolone) vs Injectable Trenbolone

    Or like

    Oral Pro Boldenone aka Boldione(EQ-Plex) vs Injectable Boldenone(Equipoise)

    or like

    Oral Pro Dienolone aka Dienedione(Xtren) vs Dienolone(Transdermal Trenazone most common form)
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    I think he's asking to compare pro hormone to the hormone it becomes
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00S4Boy View Post
    Killer I'm kinda confused by the question let me see if I can put out a couple examples and tell me which closest describes what you are asking.

    Do you mean

    Oral Pro Turinabol(Halodrol) vs Oral Turinabol - Though both are methyl and oral

    or like

    Oral Methyl Masteron(Superdrol) vs Injectable Masteron(not methyl)

    or like

    Oral Pro Trenbolone(Trenavar) vs I think this can be Oral or Injectable Metribolone(Methyl Trenbolone) vs Injectable Trenbolone

    Or like

    Oral Pro Boldenone aka Boldione(EQ-Plex) vs Injectable Boldenone(Equipoise)

    or like

    Oral Pro Dienolone aka Dienedione(Xtren) vs Dienolone(Transdermal Trenazone most common form)
    Nice comparisons!


    No,no I meant actual prohormones....


    Like....

    m1,4 add >>>>> dbol

    or

    super-4-dhea >>>>> 4-Androstenediol >>>>> testosterone

    super-1-dhea >>>>> 1-Androstenediol >>>>> 1-testosterone
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killler View Post
    Nice comparisons!


    No,no I meant actual prohormones....


    Like....

    m1,4 add >>>>> dbol

    or

    super-4-dhea >>>>> 4-Androstenediol >>>>> testosterone

    super-1-dhea >>>>> 1-Androstenediol >>>>> 1-testosterone
    You have to ask yourself what the yield is of the actual steroid is after multiple conversions. What are all of the unwanted by-products of those multiple conversions and how do those effect your health?

    IMHO prohormones or prosteroids (something that needs to convert once or more to an active) are a waste of your money.
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    This is my first post in years...lets see if I can get the cobb webs off my hormone knowledge and HPTA (Hypothalamic Pituitary Testicular Axis) knowledge....*AHEM!!* [clears throat]

    Your questions is: "Is there less harm or impact to the endocrine system(or to other areas or the body),
    if one uses a real prohormone or proprohormone
    than if one were to simply use the real hormone to which it converts?"

    Short answer: No. Why you ask? First things first, we are taking these pre-prohormones to get them converted to the prohormones to then finally get them converted into the target hormones in the body to get the desired anabolic/androgenic effect. Any time the male body senses outside (exogenous) sources of hormones, like testosterone or its forms, it essentially shuts off its own (endogenous) production. This is called a negative feedback loop and there are several of them in the human body.


    Normally, the hypothalamus has a "testosterone sensor" which if things are runnin a little low, tells the pituitary gland to make some Luteinizing Hormone (LH) and Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH). The LH and FSH, via the circulatory system, get down to the testicles, which under the influence of LH and FSH, make some testosterone and secretes in to the blood which tells the Hypothalamus things are now OK...this process is called homeostasis.

    If outside testosterone is introduced via preprohorones, prohrmones, actual hormones, etc, the Hypothalamus gets it's sensor tripped off saying "too much Testosterone" and accordingly reduces the LH and FSH then the testicular producton of testosterone. Hence why the ballz shink during a cycle...they aren't being used.


    I hope this roughly answers your question and gives you enough info to go amongst the internet and find out more

    Cameron
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    You have to ask yourself what the yield is of the actual steroid is after multiple conversions. What are all of the unwanted by-products of those multiple conversions and how do those effect your health?

    IMHO prohormones or prosteroids (something that needs to convert once or more to an active) are a waste of your money.
    So....

    There could actually be more harm from taking a prohormone of testosterone than by simply taking testosterone?


    Thank you very much Mr.Dunn!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifeguard View Post
    This is my first post in years...lets see if I can get the cobb webs off my hormone knowledge and HPTA (Hypothalamic Pituitary Testicular Axis) knowledge....*AHEM!!* [clears throat]

    Your questions is: "Is there less harm or impact to the endocrine system(or to other areas or the body),
    if one uses a real prohormone or proprohormone
    than if one were to simply use the real hormone to which it converts?"

    Short answer: No. Why you ask? First things first, we are taking these pre-prohormones to get them converted to the prohormones to then finally get them converted into the target hormones in the body to get the desired anabolic/androgenic effect. Any time the male body senses outside (exogenous) sources of hormones, like testosterone or its forms, it essentially shuts off its own (endogenous) production. This is called a negative feedback loop and there are several of them in the human body.


    Normally, the hypothalamus has a "testosterone sensor" which if things are runnin a little low, tells the pituitary gland to make some Luteinizing Hormone (LH) and Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH). The LH and FSH, via the circulatory system, get down to the testicles, which under the influence of LH and FSH, make some testosterone and secretes in to the blood which tells the Hypothalamus things are now OK...this process is called homeostasis.

    If outside testosterone is introduced via preprohorones, prohrmones, actual hormones, etc, the Hypothalamus gets it's sensor tripped off saying "too much Testosterone" and accordingly reduces the LH and FSH then the testicular producton of testosterone. Hence why the ballz shink during a cycle...they aren't being used.


    I hope this roughly answers your question and gives you enough info to go amongst the internet and find out more

    Cameron
    Glad to have you posting again....

    Roughly,I understand all that.

    But what I want to know....


    If multiple conversions from a prohormone occur,and at the end,testosterone is made....

    will the body read this testosterone the same as it reads exogenously administered plain testosterone?

    Thus,will shutdown occur and will it be of the same intensity?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killler View Post
    So....

    There could actually be more harm from taking a prohormone of testosterone than by simply taking testosterone?


    Thank you very much Mr.Dunn!
    With the preprohormones you could get the negative feedback on the testosterone hormone loop without much benefit to show for it. If you take the actual stuff, you get the benefits of having the high blood levels....along with the negative stuff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killler View Post
    Glad to have you posting again....

    Roughly,I understand all that.

    But what I want to know....


    If multiple conversions from a prohormone occur,and at the end,testosterone is made....

    will the body read this testosterone the same as it reads exogenously administered plain testosterone?

    Thus,will shutdown occur and will it be of the same intensity?
    Yes. Your body sees any amount of "outside" hormone as replacing the need to produce it's own. Shut down occurrs about 3-5 weeks-ish into a cycle....depends on the person.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killler View Post
    Glad to have you posting again....

    Roughly,I understand all that.

    But what I want to know....


    If multiple conversions from a prohormone occur,and at the end,testosterone is made....

    will the body read this testosterone the same as it reads exogenously administered plain testosterone?

    Thus,will shutdown occur and will it be of the same intensity?
    I don't know the exact science of it but basically what David Dunn is saying is.

    Not real numbers but

    1000mg of 4-dhea yields 500mg of 4-ad yields 200mg of Testosterone

    That 200mg of testosterone will be the same as 200mg of injected testosterone, but what about the other 800mg, what are they now and how are they effecting your body.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killler View Post
    Was wondering....

    If someone with a lot of knowledge could answer this....


    Is there less harm or impact to the endocrine system(or to other areas or the body),
    if one uses a real prohormone or proprohormone
    than if one were to simply use the real hormone to which it converts.




    Assuming the PH or PPH is non-methylated off course.
    just take some damn real roids bro, eat healthy, stay hydrated, dont abuse the recommended dose by going way above it and you will have absolutely ZERO side effects short and long term
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nico1 View Post
    just take some damn real roids bro, eat healthy, stay hydrated, dont abuse the recommended dose by going way above it and you will have absolutely ZERO side effects short and long term
    He's from eastern europe, might not be easy to get real gear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post

    IMHO prohormones or prosteroids (something that needs to convert once or more to an active) are a waste of your money.
    Not to mention the taxation on one's liver
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    I heard there was a new mod/admin added to the mod team.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00S4Boy View Post
    I don't know the exact science of it but basically what David Dunn is saying is.

    Not real numbers but

    1000mg of 4-dhea yields 500mg of 4-ad yields 200mg of Testosterone

    That 200mg of testosterone will be the same as 200mg of injected testosterone, but what about the other 800mg, what are they now and how are they effecting your body.
    You have the idea but 4AD converts at about 15%. When you really look at what you buy when you by these new DSHEA (sp?) compliant products that use DHEA you have to ask yourself a couple more questions - what is the rate and by-products of DHEA conversion (much estrogen) to 4AD. Then the rate and by-products of conversion (much estrogen) to testosterone. Some will tell you that the precursors have anabolic properties in and of themselves. May be true but who cares? Do you want by-products or an active hormone?
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn
    You have the idea but 4AD converts at about 15%. When you really look at what you buy when you by these new DSHEA (sp?) compliant products that use DHEA you have to ask yourself a couple more questions - what is the rate and by-products of DHEA conversion (much estrogen) to 4AD. Then the rate and by-products of conversion (much estrogen) to testosterone. Some will tell you that the precursors have anabolic properties in and of themselves. May be true but who cares? Do you want by-products or an active hormone?
    Both of you are incorrect regarding conversion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 00S4Boy

    I don't know the exact science of it but basically what David Dunn is saying is.

    Not real numbers but

    1000mg of 4-dhea yields 500mg of 4-ad yields 200mg of Testosterone

    That 200mg of testosterone will be the same as 200mg of injected testosterone, but what about the other 800mg, what are they now and how are they effecting your body.
    Incorrect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    Both of you are incorrect regarding conversion.
    If I am incorrect than provide evidence of such. This is 10 year old knowledge base from back when I could by it legally and you were too young to.

    I stand on my statement.

    4-androstene-3,17-diol

    Molecular Formula:C19H30O2

    Molecular Weight:290.44g/mol

    Description:4-androstene-3,17-diol is an androstenediol that is converted to testosterone. The conversion rate is about 15.76%, almost triple that of androstenedione, due to utilization of a different enzymatic pathway. There is no direct conversion to estrogen, though some secondary aromatization does occur through metabolism. 4-Androstenediol is less androgenic, since it does not metabolize into the potent androgen dihydrotestosterone (DHT).
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    "Is there less harm or impact to the endocrine system(or to other areas or the body),
    if one uses a real prohormone or proprohormone
    than if one were to simply use the real hormone to which it converts"

    Methylated is methylated, regardless of prohormone or active status of the compound. So if it's methylated, expect to see damage to liver. Granted, this is moot if you 1) take only recommended dose, 2) don't drink, 3) take UDCA or TUDCA while on

    None of the prohormones like X-Tren, H-Drol, Epistane, etc convert to or mimick human testosterone molecule anyways. Otherwise, the result of taking these hormones would always be just like injecting testosterone. Last time I check, Dienolone is quite different from Test. So the idea that they are even comparable is hard to realize. You could say they all increase anabolic activity, to some degree or another.

    High T levels means increased likelihood of gyno, water retention, shortness of breath, high hemoglobin count, etc.

    High SD levels equals aggressiveness, bloat, no sex drive, etc

    High Dienolone levels equals same as SD minus the bloat plus high blood pressure and night sweats...the list could go on.

    My endo claims that test only cycles are safe, effective and you only risk gyno & temporary shutdown/fertility issues. Apparently if you allow your body a long enough time to recover, things will return 100% to normal. I tend to agree. However, no one can say the same about any prohormone or synthetic testosterone alternate with the exception of maybe Masteron and Anavar. The main reason is because no one has legally and in a controlled fashion been able to test these prohormone compounds on large groups of participants. With that said, I believe the absolute best pro-hormone I used was Bold 200. It was weak compared to others but made you hungry, had a postive effect on sex drive, increased hardness, was a dry compound, & was non-methylated. It was so safe it could be ran for 10-12 weeks at a time. With HCG, you probably could have run that stuff and never actually shut down that much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    If I am incorrect than provide evidence of such. This is 10 year old knowledge base from back when I could by it legally and you were too young to.

    I stand on my statement.
    well, 2 things.

    1rst thing, that is referring to 4-androstenediol, a direct precursor to testosterone, with intrinsic activity of it's own (meaning, it can bind with, and interact with the androgen receptor to some degree)

    2nd thing, that data (15% or w/e) was taken from the patent pa filed on 4-androstenediol, which was done in-vitro (in a petri dish), and has zero significance regarding in vivo, or usage in the human body.

    lastly (so I guess I should of said 3 things) conversion isn't a one way street, and can go back and forth, until the compound is converted into an inacactive metabolite or passed out of the body.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    well, 2 things.

    1rst thing, that is referring to 4-androstenediol, a direct precursor to testosterone, with intrinsic activity of it's own (meaning, it can bind with, and interact with the androgen receptor to some degree)

    2nd thing, that data (15% or w/e) was taken from the patent pa filed on 4-androstenediol, which was done in-vitro (in a petri dish), and has zero significance regarding in vivo, or usage in the human body.

    lastly (so I guess I should of said 3 things) conversion isn't a one way street, and can go back and forth, until the compound is converted into an inacactive metabolite or passed out of the body.
    So...

    Your 1st thing...as I mentioned that some...apparently you are one of those some...believe it has intrinsic activity, which I stated. Quantify and qualify with evidence or data that said intrinsic activity in-vitro or in-vivo. Otherwise it is as worthless as your 2nd thing

    Your 2nd thing...provide us the evidence that what I or Mr. Arnold said is indeed incorrect.
    Show us, with data, how I and Mr. Arnold are incorrect.

    Your 3rd thing...that is what I said...metabolites...that are worthless and a waste of money. And your valuable and valid point regarding these metabolites is what?

    If you want to be argumentative for the sake of arguing (meaning you are not providing anything other than your opinion which has no merit in regard to substantive dispute) you will be ignored by me and others (not that this is a newsflash to you or anyone in ear shot of your posts).

    You are very welcome to contribute constructively supported by some semblance of evidence or data. Otherwise, in essence, you have nothing to say that has any value whatsoever, one way or the other, in regard to your point.

    Carry on
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    sure, when I have time, i'll pull up post of pat stating over and over how people take the in vitro study and mis interpret the information.

    he will openly state there is no way to determine what % will convert, as he has many times. I'll see if I can get him to post in this thread. and I'll search when I get the time. my laptop is broken, so im having to share with the family right now.

    I'll also get you the data showing diol's and diones are able to bind with & interact with the ar, as pat saying such probably isn't enough.
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    This study shows the binding ability of a number of compounds, including 4-androstenediol, and dione.

    http://www.fda.gov/downloads/science.../ucm144386.pdf
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    and Article Written by Patrick Arnold on the subject. I'd post the source, but dont want to get in trouble.

    Prohormones, Conversion Rates and Broscientists

    Written by Patrick Arnold

    Monday, 22 June 2009 03:28

    OK, it’s time to discuss your favorite subject: prohormones!! It’s my favorite subject too, as I

    have spent many years studying and manufacturing the stuff, and have made most of my living

    selling them. I do wanna move on to other things—but people keep bugging me about

    prohormones so I keep discussing them. And I am sure this article won’t be the last one on the

    subject

    The Folly of Prohormone ‘Conversion Rates’

    Ten years ago when I first introduced prohormones to the marketplace, I presented some

    research that was meant to illustrate the relative efficiency of a prohormone in converting to an

    active hormone in the body. I coined the term ‘conversion rate’ which was supposed to

    represent the amount of active hormone formed in the body after a given period of time. The

    values for these conversion rates were based on studies done with a series of

    hormones—ndrostenedione, DHEA, 5-androstenediol, and 4-androstenediol—which were

    incubated in human blood for about an hour.

    I wish now that I hadn’t used the conversion rate term in the fashion that I did. Since that time,

    the concept of conversion rate, based as heretofore described, has become embedded in the

    popular terminology used by bodybuilding science dudes—whom I refer to as ‘broscientists.’

    This has led to gross misunderstandings of how prohormones work in the body and about how

    to accurately predict the true endpoint potency that a prohormone possesses. These blood

    incubation conversion rate numbers represent how much a prohormone converts to an active

    hormone, about as well as counting how many cars are on the highway at an exact given time

    represents how many cars have ever been on the highway! Hormone metabolism in the body is

    a multidimensional system and involves way more things going on than just one thing turning

    into another and stopping. Just like how a car can get on the highway, then get off on another

    road, then get on again, then get off on another road etc., a prohormone can convert to an

    active hormone, then convert back to the prohormone, then convert to the active hormone

    again, and then convert to something else. And these dynamics are ongoing.

    One of the most well-known of the prohormones is 4-androstenediol and it is often stated that

    1 / 4

    Prohormones, Conversion Rates and Broscientists

    Written by Patrick Arnold

    Monday, 22 June 2009 03:28

    it has a conversion rate of 15 percent (the number coming from the aforementioned blood

    study). Well then, let me ask you something: what do you think the conversion rate of

    testosterone is? Or, to put it another way, how much testosterone do you think you will see in

    that blood study, relative to the amount you started with? I ask this question to a lot of guys and

    then I tell them the answer is probably not much different than 15 percent. They look at me like I

    am nuts. But using the method of this blood incubation, that’s about the number you would get.

    You see how this is so misleading?

    Examine the chart of hormone metabolism below. This chart is greatly simplified, but it can

    effectively illustrate the basics of what happens to steroid hormones after they enter the body.

    The arrows between the chemicals represent metabolic transformations, with the single arrows

    designating one-way (irreversible) reactions and the double arrows designating equilibrium

    (reversible) reactions.

    Start by looking at 4-androstenediol (4-AD). Notice that it pretty much has only one direction to

    go and that is toward testosterone (research indicates that this is its sole initial metabolic

    transformation). Now is that it? Does it just stay as testosterone? Of course not. As you can see

    from the chart, this newly-formed testosterone can then go right back to 4-AD—although this

    rarely happens. Or this new testosterone can go on to change to androstenedione and then

    back again. Alternatively, when it changes to androstenedione, the androstenedione can then

    convert irreversibly to estrogens or hydroxylated metabolites. Once it does that, the steroid is

    out of the picture and can no longer go back to testosterone.

    This is how it works. The steroids are constantly changing in your body to other steroids.

    Sometimes they go back and forth or on to other things and then perhaps back again, or

    whatever. Sometimes these whatevers may be an irreversible pathway and then they become

    part of a new metabolic transformation system. The bottom line is that a prohormone’s efficiency

    cannot be measured by looking at how much target hormone is hanging around an hour after it

    is added to some blood.

    To make a blood incubation test meaningful for our purposes, you would need to keep taking

    measurements of the blood levels, beginning as soon as the prohormone is added to the

    sample and up until target hormone levels start to fall to insignificance. Then you simply

    average the numbers. The more measurements, the more accurate it will be. This will tell us

    how much testosterone your body is exposed to over the entire period of time, rather than just

    at one single time point (e.g., one hour).

    2 / 4

    Prohormones, Conversion Rates and Broscientists

    Written by Patrick Arnold

    Monday, 22 June 2009 03:28

    Of course, it’s still not that simple. When you ingest a prohormone, it only spends a part of its

    time in the blood. It spends a substantial portion of its time in the liver and dozens of other

    tissues of the body and each of these tissues has its own balance of enzymes, with its own

    tendency to transform steroids in one way or another. So this means the numbers from the

    blood sample paint an incomplete picture, even if you do take a multitude of samples. You really

    need to give the prohormone to living human beings and then take blood samples from them

    over the course of the time it takes for the compound to be processed

    Anyway, I hope you get my point. And I hope when you hear someone throw around that term

    “conversion rate” again you tell them to shut up and read this article. And then they can be just

    as confused as you are right now.

    How to Make a Hormone

    No, the answer to the question I am talking about is not “Don’t pay her.” I am talking about

    making active anabolic steroids from readily available prohormones. Actually, this is not

    something I would normally write about, but I had writer’s block this month and John Romano

    said this sort of thing would be something he would be interested in reading. So I thought I

    would delve into it a little. I have to warn you though, unless you have a background in steroid

    chemistry, this is not gonna make much sense to you.

    As you know, prohormones are metabolic precursors to active hormones, which are converted

    through the action of enzymes in your body. But these same prohormones can also be

    converted to the active hormones synthetically—that is, by the use of chemicals in a lab. In

    particular, diols and diones can be made into their corresponding active hormones by

    procedures that are actually remarkably simple.

    Diols

    The most basic diol is 4-androstenediol. However, it is now illegal. There are still some diols

    out there, though. Here is a list containing 4-androstenediol and some other still legal diols.

    If you look closely, you will see that all these diols have double bonds in the first ring that are

    one carbon atom away from the 3-hydroxyl. The hydroxyl at carbon 17, however, does not have

    this feature. We can use this difference to our advantage and perform what is known as an

    ‘allylic oxidation.’Allylic oxidations can be done using a variety of different chemical reagents;

    however, activated manganese dioxide is the most convenient one to use. What this chemical

    does is oxidize the hydroxyl at carbon 3 to a ketone, while leaving the 17 beta-hydroxyl

    unaffected. This leaves you with the classic ‘3-one-17b-ol’ structure that most active anabolic

    steroids possess.

    3 / 4

    Prohormones, Conversion Rates and Broscientists

    Written by Patrick Arnold

    Monday, 22 June 2009 03:28

    The procedure is simple. You dissolve the steroid (let’s say 5 grams) in an appropriate organic

    solvent (let’s say 250cc of acetone) and then add about six times its weight in activated

    manganese dioxide. It is important that you use activated manganese dioxide because regular

    manganese dioxide won’t work. The activated manganese dioxide will not dissolve, but rather it

    will sink to the bottom. You must then mix the slurry for several hours (say 6-8 hours). After you

    are done, you filter off the manganese dioxide, or let it settle out and decant the clear layer. This

    clear layer will contain your active steroid in acetone and you can retrieve it either by slowly

    evaporating off the acetone, or by adding about five parts water and precipitating the steroid

    out. The precipitated steroid can then be filtered off and dried.

    Examples of this reaction are the conversion of 4-androstenediol to testosterone, the

    conversion of 17a-methyl-1,4-Androstadien-3b,17bdiol to dianabol, and the conversion of

    4-chloro-17a-methyl-androsta-1,4-dien-3b-17b-diol to oral Turinabol.

    Please don’t forget the fact that as soon as you are done with this chemical procedure, you

    have a controlled substance on your hand and you are therefore committing a felony. It is for

    this reason that I must remind you now that this is all being presented to you for purely

    informational and entertainment purposes.

    Next month I will continue the chemical information and entertainment by discussing the

    chemical conversion of diones. C’ya!
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    I found the same.

    You are referencing the source that created this "bro-science" and then using the same source to dispute the "bro-science" without it/him presenting any quantitative evidence one way or the other. I don't fall for and nor do I believe the "if you don't have a background in steroid chemistry" disclaimer.

    "Please don’t forget the fact that as soon as you are done with this chemical procedure, you have a controlled substance on your hand and you are therefore committing a felony. It is for this reason that I must remind you now that this is all being presented to you for purely informational and entertainment purposes." LOL

    "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...!"

    Be careful who's ball-sack you nestle under your chin!

    So where does that leave us?

    How much active testosterone does 1000mg of 4AD produce?
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    Sigh, okay, going to make me work. Okay.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b
    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    If you want to be argumentative for the sake of arguing (meaning you are not providing anything other than your opinion which has no merit in regard to substantive dispute) you will be ignored by me and others (not that this is a newsflash to you or anyone in ear shot of your posts).

    You are very welcome to contribute constructively supported by some semblance of evidence or data. Otherwise, in essence, you have nothing to say that has any value whatsoever, one way or the other, in regard to your point.

    Carry on
    I obviosly have no idea what i'm saying, but if important people such as yourself ask me to provide resources of info, I'll gladly do such. I cant say the same for others.
    I am not so important. But I am smart enough to know you are smart enough to know that you know better.
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    Re: Prohormone vs steroid


    Got some anabolic Mortal Kombat going down in here.
    FINAFLEX PRODUCT EDUCATOR


    ​" If you're looking for a work horse.......I'm no Clydesdale."
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    Dunn is like shao khan. Or maybe lord raiden, not sure
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    Re: Prohormone vs steroid


    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    Dunn is like shao khan. Or maybe lord raiden, not sure
    Yea I don't see David Dunn losing too many intellectual arguments...
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    Incorrect.
    Is he rly
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    Dunn is like shao khan. Or maybe lord raiden, not sure
    I had no idea who you were talking about until I googled and read the Wiki's on them. I think I'd rather be considered Lord Raiden.

    One of my engineer partners calls me Thor and bought me a Mjölnir (Thor's hammer) and it sits on my desk. So I can see some parallels there. But honestly I have no idea who those characters are.

    My hope is that these were flattering comparisons

    BTW...I apologize for the ball-sack comment.
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    Re: Prohormone vs steroid


    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    I had no idea who you were talking about until I googled and read the Wiki's on them. I think I'd rather be considered Lord Raiden.

    One of my engineer partners calls me Thor and bought me a Mjölnir (Thor's hammer) and it sits on my desk. So I can see some parallels there. But honestly I have no idea who those characters are.

    My hope is that these were flattering comparisons

    BTW...I apologize for the ball-sack comment.
    You can't tell me you're so old that you've never played Mortal Kombat.. are you??
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    Quote Originally Posted by vidapreta View Post
    You can't tell me you're so old that you've never played Mortal Kombat.. are you??
    I play sports and have as recently as last year begun to play 45+ baseball. Since the days of the coin operated Space Invaders and Asteroids (you do the math) I have not played video games with a few rare exceptions of a short time or two when I bought my son a Nintendo some 12yrs ago or more. It's just not my thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    I play sports and have as recently as last year begun to play 45+ baseball. Since the days of the coin operated Space Invaders and Asteroids (you do the math) I have not played video games with a few rare exceptions of a short time or two when I bought my son a Nintendo some 12yrs ago or more. It's just not my thing.
    But you certainly don your cape for said baseball games, don't you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post
    But you certainly don your cape for said baseball games, don't you?
    Most certainly! I am a catcher and play pretty damn well despite my troubled right knee. I still have a canon arm (when healthy). I've considered other defensive position but after catching (inherently being in every single play of the game) the others are kind of like being a spectator.
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    Catcher arguably the most important position in the game. Albeit most taxing on the knees, but way to go!!
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    Re: Prohormone vs steroid


    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    ISince the days of the coin operated Space Invaders and Asteroids (you do the math) I have not played video games.
    Oh the 80's....The good old days..

    If I remember correctly, that's before the iPhone...
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    Quote Originally Posted by vidapreta View Post

    Oh the 80's....The good old days..

    If I remember correctly, that's before the iPhone...
    I still put Billy Mitchell's King of Kong: Hot Sauce on everything.
  

  
 

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