Is this stack safe/beneficial?
- 12-13-2004, 12:26 AM
Is this stack safe/beneficial?
I would like to know if it would be beneficial to stack:
1-TU (1-testosterone-17-ß-undecanoate ester) 150mg/day
Oxanavar (17a-Methyl-4-HydroxyNandrolone) 15mg/day
Nolva (Post Cycle)
Any input is appreciated, or any suggestions for additions to the stack would be great.
- 12-13-2004, 12:58 AM
Dude, I know I'm not much older than you, but you are too young to be starting a stack like this (hopefully you aren't). I'm going on 22 and probably won't start my first cycle until after my 22nd birthday (about mid-February). There's all kinds of other stuff you can use other than androgens at this point. I know this probably isn't what you want to hear, but you're gonna hear it whether you like it or not.
- 12-13-2004, 01:14 AM
12-13-2004, 10:23 AM
and the crowd goes wild!!!!! I told you guys, here is another one. YOU ARE TOO YOUNG FOR PH'S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12-13-2004, 10:35 AM
I wasn't asking whether it was "safe" or not for me to use prohormones. I have used 19nor before and I have also done a 6 week cycle of 1-tu. I am 6 foot, 180 pounds and I've been lifting for 3 years. I feel that I have reached a plateau, and everytime that I reach a state like where I am at right now, I need to change something in order to continue making gains. Also, I am not just some random punk teen idiot who recklessly buys and pops supplements/ph's. I have also read BigCat's journal, and I quote:
I heard from sources that you shouldn't take prohormones when you are young because your testosterone is still so high you won't notice. Also I heard you'll only get good results if you are over 40. What's up? I have one statistical FACT that should clear up this entire mess. Testosterone levels in males between the ages of 20 and 50 barely decline by 20%. There is no difference worth naming here, let alone one that would drastically improve results from prohormones. I assure you that the right products in the right doses can raise hormonal levels 3 to 10 times over baseline levels. If that is not a good result, I don't know what is. For a legal supplement that is as good as it gets by the way. So your sources are total nonsense. If they feel like making wild claims, let them back it up for once. I'm tired of people in this industry claiming this and that to boost sales, but never providing ample proof to back it up.
Right now my testosterone levels are not much higher than they will be at age 21, I am not getting any taller, so there is no major difference in age that will convince me otherwise. I have used PH's before without negative side effects with great gains. PH's will also be banned way before I turn 21. So quit trying to play daddy and answer my question.
12-13-2004, 10:47 AM
Also one other excerp from BigCat's journal, which is affiliated with this forum:
"Now as a given I would still say its not ok for anyone under 18 to use them. It might be that a few 16 and 17-year olds are capable of showing adequate responsibility in using them, and likewise a few 18+ year olds that will never have that responsibility even one day in their life. You know the type that will walk out on wife and child someday to go gamble his life-savings away in Vegas. But for anyone under 16, and anyone over that is still in growth and values his height, DO NOT TAKE PROHORMONES. I'm not saying this to be a pain or a spoil-sport, but steroidogenic substances can close the openings in epiphysial plates which will limit your growth - Permanently. So use caution and common sense with prohormones and stay away if you aren't willing to put in the time to read things like this and learn the proper use. And yes I realize I'm preaching to the choir here... "
OHCougar - I was asking for advice from PH users more experienced than myself, I didn't want advice from someone who has never even used Prohormones before. You obviously don't know your ass from first base.
12-13-2004, 11:01 AM
yeah you're probably right ... most of us here really don't know anything and we make this up
on top of it we just have something against you personally so we want to give you as much misinformation as possible to trick you into thinking you shouldn't use ph/ps/aas out of pure hatred
keep on doing what you're doing man ... hope you don't end up on permanent hormone replacement therapy
12-13-2004, 11:02 AM
and by the way ... how do you know your test levels aren't any higher now than they will be in 3 years? i'm assuming you've had blood work done both now and somehow already obtained your blood work from when you're 21 to know that they are roughly equal?
12-13-2004, 11:05 AM
12-13-2004, 11:53 AM
Also, what do you mean by plateau? Why not try different training/nutrition methods first? Those are the things that keep you growing. I'm tired of folks using that "I'm not getting taller so I must've reached my full genetic potential" rationale.
Don't come back with the "my diet is clean" line. Most aren't...or they were good up to the point you're at now. Post your diet and training routine. The issue is that you most likely need to change both to move to a new goal. Also, the fact is, since you're 18, the "I've trained 3 years" only means that hopefully you've learned proper form. You don't know truly what you've gained over that 3 years purely from just maturing from your early to late teens.
12-13-2004, 12:16 PM
You can grow naturally and get past plateaus if your diet and training are in check. They are obviously not if you have to resort to androgens. At your age it isn't worth messing around with your hormone levels.
I respect Bigcat, but I take some of his info. with a grain of salt. The Board here has rules about ppl under 21 and wanting to use androgens, it's not accepted plain and simple.
12-13-2004, 12:20 PM
I've just been thinking back to when I was 18. I wanted everything now and I didn't care about screwing future success to get it. I think thats how I ended up with $5000 worth of credit card debt. I'm 25 with a real job and have paid off all those debts, but I still have bad credit because of the credit and unpaid bills from college.
I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this analogy. Basically, theres no rush. You're going to grow with or without PHs and AAS, but theres a good chance if you choose to use gear you can screw yourself in the future. I think if you took the next 3 years to get your diet and training straight (something most AAS and PH users haven't done) then your results will be better when you do start using and you won't screw up yourself.
Oh and something else to think about......if you use AAS and PHs before your body is ready, it may cause permanent erectile dysfunction. Personnally I don't think any amount of muscle is worth a limp dick for the rest of your life.
12-13-2004, 12:23 PM
IMO diet and changing routine only takes you so far, however at your age your still too young for ph's. Also you should not be plateauing after only three years of lifting. I didnt hit my first plateau until my 5th or 6th year of lifting. Post your diet and let us take a look.
12-13-2004, 03:07 PM
I think the harsh reality is that you aren't going to change his mind regardless, see Robin's comments. We were all invincible at 18. I would like to point out that I went from 6' to 6'2" around age 19, so you can't be certain you are done growing.
With all that said, these folks aren't trying to bust your balls, they are trying to make you take a second look at what you are doing. I would highly doubt that by adding CEE, or taking XPand, or V12, or any number of non hormonal products, you couldn't break thru your stickng point. Hell, take two weeks off and hit it hard and that may be all it takes. For me personally, I was stuck at 220. I've still yet to do my first cycle and I just added a mix (XPand) and it has made a huge difference.
Exhaust all your options. I view anything like PH's as something you shouldn't dick with until you have used everything else that has little to no risk of jacking up your system long term. (doesn't mean a brother shouldn't stock up for a rainy day).
12-13-2004, 03:25 PM
good responses guys - it's all you can do to try and dissuade people from making mistakes, even if our best admonitions are not heard or abided by.
all i can add to this is that it is medical FACT that the majority of males reach hormonal balance at age 21-22. that's the biggest reason for caution/abstinence regarding PH/AAS before that age. check the journals. you might not get taller from 18-20, but i bet you'll grow more hair on your face and body...a prime example of hormone aggrandizement...ask my gay female cousin who now has a real beard thanks to exogenous hormones (she's planning to change genders some time soon)
12-13-2004, 03:36 PM
Thank you for your comments, but just so I know for future use, will the stack above mix properly? I obviously want to buy plenty of prohormonal products before the ban. I will list my diet below:
7 eggs scrambled
2 pieces whole wheat bread
2 cups orange juice
5g glutamine powder
Gatorade(during workout also)
peanut butter toast(1 peice)
Family recipe - "TUNA SHAKE"
This is an awesome recipe for 66 quick grams of protein, although it sounds disgusting, it actually is not bad at all. Once accustommed to the taste, it goes down like water.
2 cans of tuna(1 cup)
Orange juice(enough to make it blend nicely without feeling chunks of tuna, about 2 cups)
Blend for 30 seconds and drink immediately.
Turkey or ham sandwich with whole wheat bread
Brocolli or other green vegetable
Either chicken or red meat
1 glass of milk
TUNA SHAKE this time with 1 can of tuna instead of 2.
Feel free to critique, I have tried taking creatine, my face gets puffy when I ingest high amounts of creatine.
12-13-2004, 04:03 PM
i would add another meal or two in there ... try to eat every 2-3 hours ... the meals you have are solid though ... although i don't know about the red bull and gatorade ... at least make it sugar free redbull
have you tried cee? (Creatine ethyl ester) those that bloat on creatine mono have enjoyed success without the bloat try searching for CEE* on the board
12-13-2004, 04:28 PM
nothing wrong with dilute gatorade during a workout (i just do water myself), but glen is right, red bull beforehand isnt really sensible. get your solid meal with moderate GI carbs 60-90 minutes prior to workout, and go with just caffeine/coffee/DIET energy drink 20-30 min beforehand if you want a boost. sugar crashes are about as much fun as a proctology exam 60 minutes into a 90-minute workout.Originally Posted by glenihan
12-13-2004, 05:00 PM
If I were you and was going to stock up on something for 3 years down the road, I'd get 1test cyp and 4AD cyp powders or regular 1test and 4ad powders for transdermal application. You won't need anything fancy to make gains. I'd go with whats been proven to work. You'll also get better results with that than the cycle you initially proposed. And if you can get your hands on some superdrol......Originally Posted by speedstyleslx
However, if you're anything like me, where you think you make get tempted to use them if you have them on hand, I'd just wait until you're ready and over 21 and use AAS.
12-13-2004, 05:04 PM
please...oohhhh please tell me what is in that tuna shake. SOUNDS DELICIOUS!!!!!. Glen is right, add more meals. Whats your training like?
12-13-2004, 05:29 PM
Tuna shakes! LOL I eat 3-4 bags of tuna every day as Im on the road frequently. in order to get a better taste and not add fat via mayo,I add a little heinz sweet relish. That and a bunch of breath mintss makes it mor e appealing. Its an inexpensiv e meal that is low fat
12-13-2004, 06:11 PM
I used to eat tuna straight from the can until I realized how much quicker and easier it goes down when in shake form. It does not taste bad, all my buddies knocked it until they tried it. It is a cheap alternative to protein powder, plus the orange juice and banana gives me all the carbs and sugars I need post workout.
My training consists of 4 on 1 off with the occasional day off here and there. Pretty Standard Training Schedule:
I sometimes mix it up and do Bi's/tris together
12-13-2004, 06:28 PM
This post needs to be nominated for most entertaining ever.
So far we have
1. Bearded ladies
2. Tuna Protein Shakes
3. In Workout Protological Exams
What else could a guy ask for......??
12-13-2004, 06:47 PM
12-13-2004, 06:57 PM
1-2 power exercises for each muscle group, each consisting of 4 sets
2 secondary exercises for each muscle group, each consisting of 3-4 sets
I am currently on a heavy weight, low rep regimen usually something like:
1st set - 12 reps
2nd set - 10 reps
3rd set - 6 reps
4th set - 2-4 reps
12-13-2004, 07:08 PM
Also does anyone know if it would be beneficial to do 20-30 minutes of cardio at 165 heart rate at the end of each of my workouts? I have heard that doing cardio can reduce the amount of muscle that is gained. I am trying to gain only lean, rock hard muscle. That is why I chose oxanar and 1-TU, no estrogen conversion or bloating.
12-14-2004, 11:39 AM
LOL....i take credit for 1 and 3. maybe we can squeeze in some more obscure references or ridiculous off-topic tangents before this thread is over.Originally Posted by kraftkid
speedstylesx - 1-TU and MOHN is a ****ty stack, IMO. without 4-ad to abate sides, that 1-test will have you feeling like you just got a proctology exam by a bearded lady. yeah, the MOHN is good for mood, but it wont keep your libido up, stave off the fatigue that is inevitable, or introduce the wonderful element of testosterone (versus 1-testosterone) to the mix, which is as welcome an addition as tuna to a protein shake (pretty darned welcome) and taking 1-test w/o 4-ad can be dangerous - there are a number of stories of seriously delayed libido rebounds (after a poorly planned 1-ad or 1-test cycle), where by the time the guy started to regain his libido, his gf had already left him for a bearded female proctologist.
you saying: "I am trying to gain only lean, rock hard muscle" means that your expectations are not sensible, or you dont understand the muscle-building process well enough. there are significant trade-offs regarding size versus cut, which is why people separate the two. pack on the weight, then shred it down. it's the tried and true method.
12-14-2004, 11:52 AM
Man I am so staggered by all the references in that one that I can't even comment. Brakes you missed your calling brother. You should be writing episodes for Seinfield or something.
Ditto to all the comments on the serious side though. I've been working out for about 16 years and have yet to find anything that would give you only "rock hard muscle adds". A huge component of this is caloric intake and to add muscle, you will have to up your calories, which regardless of PH or any AS is still going to give you some fat gains as well. Obviously you try to minimize it, but if you are too stringent on cals, you will decrease or eliminate the muscle gains.
12-14-2004, 12:11 PM
Please explain how that quote helped you conclude that your test levels are not much higher now vs age 21. The quote was intended to show that steroids can be used by those under 40 years of age with success. In terms of raw numbers, he says that test levels in males "between the ages of 20 and 50 barely decline by 20%." He does not say males between the ages of 18 and 21. I think the point bigcat was trying to make is that yes, you will grow more from prohormone/steroid use more than you would without the use of them at any age. But this does not account for the risk in side effects among other things. How do you know you are "ready?" This has to be the dumbest thing i read all the time. I think im "ready." Cmon 6' 180 lbs after multiple cycles of nordiol and 1-test? You can gain a few more pounds naturally. Dont put yourself in a position where you are dependent on ph/s for muscle growth.Originally Posted by speedstyleslx
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